The Trinity Doctrine

[epistemaniac]

WIT, you also said “I think that I have made it clear now how one demonstrates his beliefs from scripture alone, without interjection. You have not done this. You can do so now if you wish to prove me wrong about the Trinity doctrine. Otherwise, be advised that you are teaching an extra-biblical doctrine. Certainly, one can choose to read the scriptures with the Trinitarian perspective already in mind, but the scriptures themselves do not once espouse the doctrine plainly. Do you admit this, or would you like to show me otherwise? “

I have to say that you must be a little confused WIT…. you have NOT, I repeat, NOT proven your beliefs by simply listing Scripture…. and you most certainly cannot even comply with your own requests for others to prove their beliefs “without interjections”. And since you have not been able to support your ant biblical ant Trinitarian beliefs without supplying interjection, your beliefs must be false…. at least, according to your reasoning process…. lol….

I mean.. isn’t this obvious WIT? Do you post verses out of the Bible ONLY? Look back at your last posts now… in case you forgot…. No… you haven’t….. so don’t demand of others what you cannot with yourself.. this is called “hypocrisy”.

In all seriousness WIT, no one can prove their beliefs by merely quoting Scriptures… we must use Scripture to support our beliefs… but guess what… we can cite all the Scriptures we want BUT if the Scriptures we use to support our beliefs do not actually support them, then what good was it to cite them in the first place? And the point here is this: the only way we can prove that the Scriptures we are citing actually do support our beliefs is to exegete the verses… that is…. to explain what the verses MEAN…. And we cannot explain what verses MEAN by merely re-quoting the verse again…. We HAVE (and by HAVE TO I mean HAVE to…, there is absolutely NO escaping the fact of interpretation) to engage in hermeneutics (whether we want to call it “hermeneutics” or “biblical interpretation” it does not matter) in order to explicate and explain what the verse or passage means, and guess what WIT… this means doing more than quoting verses to support our views.

So as soon as I see you posting verses and verses only, I will do the same.

blessings

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ June 24 2005,21:06)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2005,20:50) Hi, The Son of God is the image of the Father, who is spirit. Phillipians 2:6 says the “form of God”.  Not a “vessel”.

Hi FYI,
What does 'form' mean in scriptural terms to you?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2005,18:57)

Hi Is 1.18, Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God who was with God in the beginning. He always had unique status being the only being completely and directly derived from the Father as an image. He is the firstborn, the first and the last, the living one through whom God created everything that was created. If he was not separate from God he could not be with that God and none of the above scriptural claims about him could be true. It was essential to the plan of God that he be separate because unless he was his obedience would have no significance. He also could not be sent and the most important part was that he could not be the vessel for His Father on earth is he was that Father. God visited and redeemed his people within the body and soul of Christ as the Spirit. God came as saviour and saved us through the saving vessel, Christ. Demigod is not a scriptural word. He was never a deity as that is how beings that are worshipped are described and he was not worshipped before he came as man recorded anywhere in scripture. He became a vessel for the fulness of his Father's deity. He also will be worshipped by all natural men who are outside of him when he returns as that is the plan of God and gives glory to God. He was never an angel or archangel and they were created through him and he was always higher than them except for his time on earth. He was the highest of the sons of God in every way and the only son of God to have divine nature. Hope this helps. Blessings to you and yours.

And to you and yours. Hope this helps what?

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

*& again*

[NickHassan]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2005,06:11)

Quote (Guest @ June 24 2005,21:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2005,20:50) Hi, The Son of God is the image of the Father, who is spirit. Phillipians 2:6 says the “form of God”.  Not a “vessel”. Hi FYI, What does 'form' mean in scriptural terms to you?

Hi FYI,
The word used for “form” is “Morphe” 3444-form, shape. It appears twice in Phil 2.
“in the form of God ” and “taking the form of a bondservant”

It is used again in Mk 16.12
speaking of the resurrected Jesus
” After that he appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way in the country”
That episode is reported in Lk 24.13f
“…. While they were talking and discussing, Jesus himself approached and began travelling with them. But their eyes were prevented from recognising him”

Now we know what the form of the bondservant was as he partook of flesh and became man. Man is body, soul and spirit. The son of God is made as an image of God but we also are made in that image so there must be likenesses between God, the Son and us in terms of our form. We are told he was like to us in all way except sin. So in that form he can be filled with the Spirit, as we all can so to do that he must be a vessel such as is described in 2 Tim 2. We are earthenware.

Certainly scripture confirms he was filled with the Spirit[Lk 4]. We know the Father he added flesh to his being so he lived in flesh. Phil 2.7 also says 'he emptied himself” so as such he was then a vessel. We do not know exactly what his vessel contained but he did not die so it was not his spirit.

Neither did he give up his personality and will as an individual as shown in the Garden so he had a soul too.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 25 2005,06:33)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2005,18:57) Hi Is 1.18, Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God who was with God in the beginning. He always had unique status being the only being completely and directly derived from the Father as an image. He is the firstborn, the first and the last, the living one through whom God created everything that was created. If he was not separate from God he could not be with that God and none of the above scriptural claims about him could be true. It was essential to the plan of God that he be separate because unless he was his obedience would have no significance. He also could not be sent and the most important part was that he could not be the vessel for His Father on earth is he was that Father. God visited and redeemed his people within the body and soul of Christ as the Spirit. God came as saviour and saved us through the saving vessel, Christ. Demigod is not a scriptural word. He was never a deity as that is how beings that are worshipped are described and he was not worshipped before he came as man recorded anywhere in scripture. He became a vessel for the fulness of his Father's deity. He also will be worshipped by all natural men who are outside of him when he returns as that is the plan of God and gives glory to God. He was never an angel or archangel and they were created through him and he was always higher than them except for his time on earth. He was the highest of the sons of God in every way and the only son of God to have divine nature. Hope this helps. Blessings to you and yours. And to you and yours. Hope this helps what?

Sorry Is , I was replying to FYI.

[Anonymous]

Nick,

You said,

“The son of God is made as an image of God”

Scripture I read says “brought forth from everlasting”, thus “eternally begotten” – not made or created.

So the Son truly is “begotten” and of the “susbstance” or “form” of God, the word “image” isn't spoken of until His incarnation, which BTW, is God with us.

We see the same of the Spirit of Wisdom which is one of the seven Spirits of God – and yet they make up one “Holy Spirit” and we are told when the Holy Spirit is in us – “God and Christ” are in us.

Your arguments don't hold up to scripture.

[WhatIsTrue]

epistemaniac,

OK.  You do miss the point.  I am not saying that one should never explain how one interprets scripture.  (Obviously, I have given many “scriptural interpretations” in the past.)  I was merely issuing a specific challenge for you, or any other Trinitarian, to show that the Trinity doctrine is explicitly scriptural as you have been asserting all along.  But let me make this simpler:

1.  Show me one verse that says God is three persons, and only three persons, (i.e. that He is a Holy Trinity).

2.  Show me one verse that says all three persons are co-equal.

3.  Show me one verse that says that all three persons are co-eternal.

4.  Show me one verse that says that understanding, and worshipping, God as a Trinity is essential to salvation.

Oh, and for extra credit…

5.  Show me one verse that says that God must die to pay the penalty for sin.

When you can show me these things explicitly taught in scripture, then I will acknowledge that the Trinity doctrine is scripturally taught.  Until then, I will maintain that it is an addition to the “gospel once delievered to the saints”.

By the way…

You wrote:

Quote

WIT… no… it's not obvious at all… why don't you spell it out for me… if I have not complied with the doctrine you can thank trinitarians for, namely sola scriptura, then please, by all means, show me the error of my ways….

I think that even you are well aware that Trinitarianism came long before “sola sciprtura” was the mantra of Christians.  The only reason why Martin Luther even needed to establish that doctrine was because the tradition of the church had perverted the gospel so much.  This is the same church that formally established the Trinity doctrine.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Ahhh, I change my mind! I choose to bow out of this never ending drivel.

Father Yahweh is NOT His son Yahshua and Yahshua did NOT pre-exist.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ June 25 2005,12:39)

Nick, You said, “The son of God is made as an image of God” Scripture I read says “brought forth from everlasting”, thus “eternally begotten” – not made or created. So the Son truly is “begotten” and of the “susbstance” or “form” of God, the word “image” isn't spoken of until His incarnation, which BTW, is God with us. We see the same of the Spirit of Wisdom which is one of the seven Spirits of God – and yet they make up one “Holy Spirit” and we are told when the Holy Spirit is in us – “God and Christ” are in us. Your arguments don't hold up to scripture.

Hi FYI,
Rev 3.14 describes Jesus Christ as “the beginning of the creation of God”

Coll 1.15 says he is” the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created , both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created through him and for him”

He is the “only begotten Son of God ” who was “with God ” in the beginning.

He is the Image of God and an image is separate from the original. How can the Son be truly begotten when he remains part of the same substance of God as a trinity? Many use the confusion of “same substance” arguments to blur whether they mean both are of divine nature, or both remain eternally part of one another because “substance” can have either meaning. Which do you mean?

The Son is not eternal retrospectively or he would not be the “only begotten Son”. His eternal nature is from his beginning in the beginning.

Jesus Christ brought God to men but not at his incarnation but at his Baptism in the Holy Spirit. He is the Son of God who was sent from heaven.

He was no different to us till his baptism in the visible form of a bondservant. Then his magnificent vessel was filled and he brought God among us. Till then he showed none of the powers and gifts of God's presence in him.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 25 2005,17:10)

Ahhh, I change my mind! I choose to bow out of this never ending drivel. Father Yahweh is NOT His son Yahshua and Yahshua did NOT pre-exist.

Hi F4Y,
That is one approach but we would prefer you to stay and try to substantiate your claims that Jesus Christ is not who he said he was and which scripture agrees about him-the Son of God through whom all creation, including that of Satan, was made. He is the only “only begotten” Son. You denigrate the Son who we respect.

[Anonymous]

Nick,

Christ is the Word of God incarnate who was with God and was God,

The first word in Gen 1:1 is in hebrew “brashith” translated “in the beginning”. The last Word in the bible is “Amen”.

http://www.creationism.org/articles/gislen1.htm

Rev 3: 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning (“brashith” in hebrew Gen 1:1) of the creation of God;

The context of the verse says that Christ is the Last (Amen) and the First (brashith) word of the complete revelation of God to ALL of mankind, as well as the causal agent in creation. Not the “first created” as you claim.

Otherwise He is NOT “the ONLY begotten Son”!

Mankind is “created” and we are sons of God as created beings and so are the angels. Christ is “The Son of God” being “brought forth” from God as scripture says!

Micah 5:2 – But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Your doctrine makes Christ a created being and not the True only “begotten” Son of God!

You say:
“He is the Image of God and an image is separate from the original.”

I reply:
Please show me one scripture that says that Christ as the Word of God prior to His incarnation was the “image” of God.

Scripture says that He was in the “form of God” and that He was the “eternal life” that was with the Father in the begining of creation – “the life” and the “light of life”.

John 1:9 That was the True Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. 11 He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

In fact, in Genesis 1:26 God said let us make man in “our” image. So created man is the image of all of God – The Father, Word/Son, and Holy Spirt. Not created in the image of the image of God, that is not scriptural.

You say:
“How can the Son be truly begotten when he remains part of the same substance of God as a trinity?”

I reply:
That is my point exactly – yet there was no other agent in His “brought forth” – so – compared to nature which declares God, Like kind begets like kind, God beget God and John 1 even calls Christ the “only begotten God”.

Romans 1:20 – For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

You say:
“Many use the confusion of “same substance” arguments to blur whether they mean both are of divine nature, or both remain eternally part of one another because “substance” can have either meaning. Which do you mean?

The Son is not eternal retrospectively or he would not be the “only begotten Son”. His eternal nature is from his beginning in the beginning.”

I reply:
Any substance (even though God is a spirit, not corporeal, not matter) brought forth from the Father is of The Father and that substance is “eternal as God is Eternal”, so Christ is eternal “in the Father”. Also, His being “brought forth” is “from everlasting” – a term used to describe eternity. So it is impossible to say Christ had a beginning and NOT infer the passing of time, eternity is the absence of the passage of time – yet there are again no words for us to express eternity without speaking of time. So Christ is “eternally” the ONLY begotten Son of God.

You say:
“Jesus Christ brought God to men but not at his incarnation but at his Baptism in the Holy Spirit. He is the Son of God who was sent from heaven. “

I reply:
Christ brought us together when He paid the price for our sins.

Romans 5:10 – For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Ephesians 2:1 – And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

He was in our midst fully God:

Isaiah 9:40 – The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (YHWH), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Isaiah 9:6 – For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matthew 1:23 – Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Zechariah 12:10 – And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me (YHWH) whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Isaiah 45: 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Philippians 2:10 – That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 14: 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Isaiah 6:5 – Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
John 12: 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed
not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw His (Christ) glory, and spake of Him.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin03ex.html

You say:
“He was no different to us till his baptism in the visible form of a bondservant. Then his magnificent vessel was filled and he brought God among us. Till then he showed none of the powers and gifts of God's presence in him.”

I reply:
You have got to be kidding me! The spotless lamb of God – the Fathers “ONLY BEGOTTEN Son” was the same as us?

Christ as “incarnate” man calls God the Father His God but does NOT call God the Father “our God” or “our Father”. The reason for this is that to call the Father “our God ” or “our Father” would be to make Himself “equal” to us – yet He specifically does NOT do this because we are NOT equal to Christ!

John 20:17 – Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 14:20 – At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Galatians 4:8 – Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

Christ's “nature” is that of the substance “brought forth” from God – that is precisely why He NEVER rebukes anyone for worship of Himself – He is God.

Christ is of the same substance – spirit, of God since God is a spirit. That is precisely why If God is in you so is Christ and the Holy Spirit – these three are ONE substance – ONE Spirit!

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-yachid-vs-echad.htm

Romans 8:9 – But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthians 12:13 – For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Christ was of the same spirit-substance that was eternal in God and was brought forth as the Word of God from the Father himself.

Philippians 2:6 – who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Christ is “by nature” God!

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

In this He became the perfect “spotless” lamb to pay the price of sin for all.

His equality is proven:

Christ –
Revelation 1:8 – I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 22:13 – I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

John 10:33 – The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 8:58 – Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 5:18 – Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 10:30 – I and my Father are one.

John 20:28 – And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

Did Christ have adequate command of language to properly converse and convey His thoughts so that the hearers understood what He meant?

The only answer is yes – Christ is either “equal” with God as they interpretted, or He intentionally misrepresented himself by NOT correcting them.

Not correcting them would make Christ a liar and a false witness – a sinner, and we would be dead in our sin because the spotless lamb wouldn't be spotless.

Quote from epistemaniac – “It's just not rational to automatically dismiss a given idea just because unbelievers said it, if we do then we would be left with very troubling ideas… for instance.. in James we are told that the demons believe that there is one God… well… since demons believe that there is one God, and we cannot trust the beliefs and ideas of unbelievers, then we have to dismiss the idea that there is only one God.”

The Father God –
Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

Both Christ and The Father –
Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

John 14:9 – Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Hebrews 3:1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house–whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

Sorry, corrected post – I am learning the “preview” function!

Nick,

Christ is the Word of God incarnate who was with God and was God,

The first word in Gen 1:1 is in hebrew “brashith” translated “in the beginning”.  The last Word in the bible is “Amen”.

http://www.creationism.org/articles/gislen1.htm

Rev 3: 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning (“brashith” in hebrew Gen 1:1) of the creation of God;

The context of the verse says that Christ is the Last (Amen) and the First (brashith) word of the complete revelation of God to ALL of mankind, as well as the causal agent in creation.  Not the “first created” as you claim.

Otherwise He is NOT “the ONLY begotten Son”!

Mankind is “created” and we are sons of God as created beings and so are the angels.  Christ is “The Son of God” being “brought forth” from God as scripture says!

Micah 5:2 – But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Your doctrine makes Christ a created being and not the True only “begotten” Son of God!

You say:
“He is the Image of God and an image is separate from the original.”

I reply:
Please show me one scripture that says that Christ as the Word of God prior to His incarnation was the “image” of God.

Scripture says that He was in the “form of God” and that He was the “eternal life” that was with the Father in the begining of creation – “the life” and the “light of life”.

John 1:9 That was the True Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. 11 He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

In fact, in Genesis 1:26 God said let us make man in “our” image.  So created man is the image of all of God – The Father, Word/Son, and Holy Spirt.  Not created in the image of the image of God, that is not scriptural.

You say:
“How can the Son be truly begotten when he remains part of the same substance of God as a trinity?”

I reply:
That is my point exactly – yet there was no other agent in His “brought forth” – so – compared to nature which declares God, Like kind begets like kind, God beget God and John 1 even calls Christ the “only begotten God”.

Romans 1:20 – For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

You say:
“Many use the confusion of “same substance” arguments to blur whether they mean both are of divine nature, or both remain eternally part of one another because “substance” can have either meaning. Which do you mean?

The Son is not eternal retrospectively or he would not be the “only begotten Son”. His eternal nature is from his beginning in the beginning.”

I reply:
Any substance (even though God is a spirit, not corporeal, not matter) brought forth from the Father is of The Father and that substance is “eternal as God is Eternal”, so Christ is eternal “in the Father”.  Also, His being “brought forth” is “from everlasting” – a term used to describe eternity.  So it is impossible to say Christ had a beginning and NOT infer the passing of time, eternity is the absence of the passage of time – yet there are again no words for us to express eternity without speaking of time.  So Christ is “eternally” the ONLY begotten Son of God.

You say:
“Jesus Christ brought God to men but not at his incarnation but at his Baptism in the Holy Spirit. He is the Son of God who was sent from heaven. “

I reply:
Christ brought us together when He paid the price for our sins.

Romans 5:10 – For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Ephesians 2:1 – And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;  2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

He was in our midst fully God:

Isaiah 9:40 – The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (YHWH), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Isaiah 9:6 – For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matthew 1:23 – Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Zechariah 12:10 – And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me (YHWH) whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Isaiah 45: 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Philippians 2:10 – That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 14: 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Isaiah 6:5 – Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the Kin
g, the LORD of hosts.

John 12:  37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw His (Christ) glory, and spake of Him.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin03ex.html

You say:
“He was no different to us till his baptism in the visible form of a bondservant. Then his magnificent vessel was filled and he brought God among us. Till then he showed none of the powers and gifts of God's presence in him.”

I reply:
You have got to be kidding me!  The spotless lamb of God – the Fathers “ONLY BEGOTTEN Son” was the same as us?

Christ as “incarnate” man calls God the Father His God but does NOT call God the Father “our God” or “our Father”.  The reason for this is that to call the Father “our God ” or “our Father” would be to make Himself “equal” to us – yet He specifically does NOT do this because we are NOT equal to Christ!

John 20:17 – Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 14:20 – At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Galatians 4:8 – Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

Christ's “nature” is that of the substance “brought forth” from God – that is precisely why He NEVER rebukes anyone for worship of Himself – He is God.

Christ is of the same substance – spirit, of God since God is a spirit.  That is precisely why If God is in you so is Christ and the Holy Spirit – these three are ONE substance – ONE Spirit!

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-yachid-vs-echad.htm

Romans 8:9 – But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthians 12:13 – For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Christ was of the same spirit-substance that was eternal in God and was brought forth as the Word of God from the Father himself.

Philippians 2:6 – who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Christ is “by nature” God!

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

In this He became the perfect “spotless” lamb to pay the price of sin for all.

His equality is proven:

Christ –
Revelation 1:8 – I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 22:13 – I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

John 10:33 – The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 8:58 – Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 5:18 – Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 10:30 – I and my Father are one.

John 20:28 – And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

Did Christ have adequate command of language to properly converse and convey His thoughts so that the hearers understood what He meant?

The only answer is yes – Christ is either “equal” with God as they interpretted, or He intentionally misrepresented himself by NOT correcting them.

Not correcting them would make Christ a liar and a false witness – a sinner, and we would be dead in our sin because the spotless lamb wouldn't be spotless.

Quote from epistemaniac – “It's just not rational to automatically dismiss a given idea just because unbelievers said it, if we do then we would be left with very troubling ideas… for instance.. in James we are told that the demons believe that there is one God… well… since demons believe that there is one God, and we cannot trust the beliefs and ideas of unbelievers, then we have to dismiss the idea that there is only one God.”

The Father God –
Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

Both Christ and The Father –
Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

John 14:9 – Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Hebrews 3:1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house–whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

[Is 1:18]

Hi FYI,
Excellent post. Its good to see someone really put some time and effort into a post like you have. I thought it was just so well written and to the point. Just one question, when you write Jesus was “brought forth” are you referring to a begettal before time or the incarnation? Just curious.

Be well.

[NickHassan]

Hi FYI,
2Cor 5.18
” Now all of these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely that GOD WAS IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation”

God was IN Christ.

Scripture means what it says. It is carefully written to avoid confusion. It does not say God was Christ or Christ was God reconciling the world but God was IN Christ. It does not say Christ was part of a godhead trinity and so he represented God.

To say that Christ is of the “same substance” as the Father because he was begotten from the Father and both had divine nature is to make large assumptions.

Yes the Son shared the same original constituents with the Father as he derived everything from God but we cannot say he had all the constituents of God.

We know almost nothing of what divine nature consists so we are grossly speculating to say they are the same in the Father and the Son. If this is your basis for claiming equality between the Father and the Son it is very weak.

God appointed Jesus as the Apostle and High Priest. He did not appoint himself as part of a godhead. God is the builder and builds through Chrsit just as He created through Christ. He came in Christ at his baptism and Christ who came in flesh.

Do you think the infant Christ or the child Christ or the young man Christ had advantages over us? If so we cannot follow Him. No. he was as us and felt all our pain and grief and his true original nature was hidden from those who were spiritually blind.

He was WITH God and was SENT from heaven. He did not bring his own power and nature but was a vessel for His Father to work in. He carried the light and life of His Father.
Jn 1.4 “IN HIM was life, and the life was the Light of men”

FYI, From the moment that God filled His Son with his own Spirit then whatever Jesus did or said was also the work and words of the Father. They became united in will and purpose. Not as an overwhelming situation but as an agreed submission of the lesser to the greater allowing the greater to fulfill His plans.

From then they are inseperable in all things forever and the work as one. So it is understandable that some may think looking at Jesus that he was the Father in flesh. He was but only as the Father, in the Son, in Flesh. As scripture says Jesus Christ came in the flesh-as a vessel for God to visit His creation and restore everything to Himself.

[Is 1:18]

Hi WIT,
Yeah you're right about the 2 Samuel 7:14 prophecy. My mistake, I didnt check the cross references thoroughly. Sorry about that mate. Seems like a funny passage to apply to Christ but im not going to argue with the Holy Spirit.

Regarding your listed scriptures, I still maintain that you have not demonstrated that your doctrine of non pre-existence is explicitly revealed in scripture. Yes you did quote a handful of verses, but so what? I think, presuppositions cast aside, very, very few people would read the below proof texts and arrive at the conclusion that Christ didn't pre-exist. Its just a massive stretch given their ambiguity. So to me it appears that you yourself hold at least one doctrine that isn't explicitly taught in the Bible. Not only that – but the good evidence points to the converse theory being true. Therefore its hardly fair to ask others to pass a test that you yourself overtly fail.

Quote

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 “[YHWH] your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear …  'I [YHWH] will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.” 2 Samuel 7:12-14 “'When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I[YHWH] will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.” Psalm 89:27 “Also I[YHWH] will make him My firstborn,     The highest of the kings of the earth.” Acts 10:38-42 “…God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.  And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with him after he arose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is he who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:45 “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” Daniel 7:13-14 “I was watching in the night visions,     And behold, one like the Son of Man,     Coming with the clouds of heaven!     He came to the Ancient of Days,     And they brought him near before Him.     Then to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,     That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve  him.     His dominion is an everlasting dominion,     Which shall not pass away,     And his kingdom the one     Which shall not be destroyed.”

I have previously stated in a post to Cubes that I dont believe all Biblical truths are explicitly taught and some doctrines are inferentially derived (as is the case for your non pre-existence doctrine). So yeah im comfortable with that fact that the Trinity doctrine isnt explicitly spelt out within the confines of one particular passage. Neither is salvation, if you disagree then why there is a such a big debate about this doctrine. Some verses stipulate that you need to confess Jesus and believe that God raised him from the dead to be saved (Romans 10:9), others say you just need to call on the name of the Lord (10:13), while elsewhere its taught that you must be baptised (John 3:3, Galatians 3:25-27)…then there's the “work out your salvation” ones. There is bits of truth all over the place and you can quote scripture to prove any number of soteriologial protocols. Simply listing scriptures proves nothing in and of itself for some doctrines.  

The fact that Jesus Christ is God is both implicitly and explicitly (John 1:1, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8…..) taught in scripture and that's a key plank in my plurality within unity understanding of God.

Be well.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2005,03:51)

Hi WIT, Yeah you're right about the 2 Samuel 7:14 prophecy. My mistake, I didnt check the cross references thoroughly. Sorry about that mate. Seems like a funny passage to apply to Christ but im not going to argue with the Holy Spirit. Regarding your listed scriptures, I still maintain that you have not demonstrated that your doctrine of non pre-existence is explicitly revealed in scripture. Yes you did quote a handful of verses, but so what? I think, presuppositions cast aside, very, very few people would read the below proof texts and arrive at the conclusion that Christ didn't pre-exist. Its just a massive stretch given their ambiguity. So to me it appears that you yourself hold at least one doctrine that isn't explicitly taught in the Bible. Not only that – but the good evidence points to the converse theory being true. Therefore its hardly fair to ask others to pass a test that you yourself overtly fail. Quote Deuteronomy 18:15-19 “[YHWH] your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear …  'I [YHWH] will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.” 2 Samuel 7:12-14 “'When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I[YHWH] will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.” Psalm 89:27 “Also I[YHWH] will make him My firstborn,     The highest of the kings of the earth.” Acts 10:38-42 “…God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.  And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with him after he arose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is he who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:45 “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” Daniel 7:13-14 “I was watching in the night visions,     And behold, one like the Son of Man,     Coming with the clouds of heaven!     He came to the Ancient of Days,     And they brought him near before Him.     Then to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,     That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve  him.     His dominion is an everlasting dominion,     Which shall not pass away,     And his kingdom the one     Which shall not be destroyed.” I have previously stated in a post to Cubes that I dont believe all Biblical truths are explicitly taught and some doctrines are inferentially derived (as is the case for your non pre-existence doctrine). So yeah im comfortable with that fact that the Trinity doctrine isnt explicitly spelt out within the confines of one particular passage. Neither is salvation, if you disagree then why there is a such a big debate about this doctrine. Some verses stipulate that you need to confess Jesus and believe that God raised him from the dead to be saved (Romans 10:9), others say you just need to call on the name of the Lord (10:13), while elsewhere its taught that you must be baptised (John 3:3, Galatians 3:25-27)…then there's the “work out your salvation” ones. There is bits of truth all over the place and you can quote scripture to prove any number of soteriologial protocols. Simply listing scriptures proves nothing in and of itself for some doctrines.   The fact that Jesus Christ is God is both implicitly and explicitly (John 1:1, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8…..) taught in scripture and that's a key plank in my plurality within unity understanding of God. Be well.

Hi Is,
Just because there is confusion and misunderstanding of certain areas of scripture among men does not suggest that there are other fundamental truths hidden in scripture about the nature of God that have only been discovered since the Teacher left us.

God is not plural.

God is one.

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