The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

ps,
The Son of God was not the only supernatural being to become incarnate.
Satan did too with Judas and with the Beast.

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2005,08:51)

Hi E, We have told you other obvious things in the past like God is God and Jesus is His only begotten Son who was with God in the beginning.

yes Nick, you have told me these rather obvious things…. and I continue to agree with these rather obvious things…. the trinitarian will gladly agree that God is God and that Jesus is His only begotten Son who was with God in the beginning… sadly you continue to think that this sort of statement is some kind of testimony against the Trinity… and it is equally obvious that it is not…. this is what “we” have been telling you…. it just doesn't seem to sink in does it?

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
What do you mean when you say the Son of God was with God,does it mean he was part of God to you or separate from God?

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2005,04:39)

ps, The Son of God was not the only supernatural being to become incarnate. Satan did too with Judas and with the Beast.

The bible classifies beings:

1) God
2) angels
3) man
4) beasts

——————

So where do you put Christ?

All other gods are false – there are no “demigods”

——————-

The scriptures call him THE Son of God

not an angel (sons of God, which are created beings)

——————-

In biological terms:

an asexual creature reproduces a genetically identical replication.

[Anonymous]

*bump*

[callsign]

Quote (Guest @ June 24 2005,06:35)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2005,04:39) ps, The Son of God was not the only supernatural being to become incarnate. Satan did too with Judas and with the Beast. The bible classifies beings: 1)  God 2)  angels 3)  man 4)  beasts —————— So where do you put Christ? All other gods are false – there are no “demigods” ——————- The scriptures call him THE Son of God not an angel (sons of God, which are created beings) ——————- In biological terms: an asexual creature reproduces a genetically identical replication.

FYI,

Psalm 82: 6 I (A)said, “You are gods,
And all of you are (B)sons of the Most High.

You never answer direct questions. You ramble on and answer a question with a question. Your retorical remarks arn't proving anything to me. One giant circle that will never end.

You said there are no demigods or other gods, but it says in psalms there is.

S

[callsign]

Quote (callsign @ June 24 2005,07:13)

Quote (Guest @ June 24 2005,06:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2005,04:39) ps, The Son of God was not the only supernatural being to become incarnate. Satan did too with Judas and with the Beast. The bible classifies beings: 1)  God 2)  angels 3)  man 4)  beasts —————— So where do you put Christ? All other gods are false – there are no “demigods” ——————- The scriptures call him THE Son of God not an angel (sons of God, which are created beings) ——————- In biological terms: an asexual creature reproduces a genetically identical replication. FYI,  Psalm 82: 6 I (A)said, “You are gods,         And all of you are (B)sons of the Most High. You never answer direct questions. You ramble on and answer a question with a question. Your retorical remarks arn't proving anything to me. One giant circle that will never end. You said there are no demigods or other gods, but it says in psalms there is. S

FYI,

In biological terms:

an asexual creature reproduces a genetically identical replication.

thats helarious, So Jesus just looked like a Male? Thats why they called Him a He.

So you actually don't believe that God impregnated Mary with His seed miraculously? Virgin Birth? Arn't you a catholic? Isn't that suppose to be extremely high on your list to believe in? I don't believe God to be Asexual, I believe Him to be Male. And no it doesn't say God is male anywhere in the bible, but it does use the right VERBAGE, Do you call God IT, or He? wasn't Man made in Their Image? So that means all of them have the same utensils as all Men.

S

[Is 1:18]

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Is 1:18, My goodness!!  I thought for sure that you had long since retired from this forum.  It's good to see you, (even though it is obvious that you are not quite as happy to see me).

Hey WIT. How's it?

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As you requested, here is what I believe about Messiah:

Appreciate that.

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Deuteronomy 18:15-19 “[YHWH] your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear …   'I [YHWH] will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.” 2 Samuel 7:12-14 “'When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I[YHWH] will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.” Psalm 89:27 “Also I[YHWH] will make him My firstborn,      The highest of the kings of the earth.” Acts 10:38-42 “…God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.  And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with him after he arose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is he who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:45 “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” Daniel 7:13-14 “I was watching in the night visions,      And behold, one like the Son of Man,      Coming with the clouds of heaven!      He came to the Ancient of Days,      And they brought him near before Him.      Then to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,      That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve  him.      His dominion is an everlasting dominion,      Which shall not pass away,      And his kingdom the one      Which shall not be destroyed.”

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Any questions?

Yes. Where is the verse that explicitly states that Christ did not pre-exist? I isn’t there. Thank you WIT you’ve unequivocally proven my point. You inferred that Christ did not exist prior to his incarnation from these passages. Isn’t that interesting. I asked you to give me scripture that explicitly revealed it and you could not produce one verse that explicitly detailed that (as yet unproven) truth. Instead you gave me a handful of ambiguous one including the highly questionable 2 Samuel 7:14. I think its submission as a ‘messianic’ prophecy is highly dubious, and if you bothered to quote the whole of v14 others would see why:

Here it is in its entirety:

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2 Samuel 7:14 14 I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men

“When he commit iniquity”?! Doesn’t sound like Jesus to me, nor does “I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men” sound like something the Father would say to the Son – something akin to 'when he steps out of line I will clobber him'. Come on, get real WIT, this scriptural misapplication alone is enough to invalidate your proof texts.

So the truth is there is no one scripture that you can use to prove Jesus didn’t pre-exist but there are several that suggest otherwise:

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John 1:3 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands Hebrews 3:1-3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house

Jesus actually laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of His hands”. Everything you see when you look up at the night sky was literally made by Jesus Christ. How is that possible if He didn’t exist? It is impossible, He did exist.

Where is Paul's annotate of the reality of Christ existing as a thought in God's mind before He was incarnated? He didnt articulate this, not once. Instead He penned this:

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Phillipians 2:5-7 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped

Not only did He exist, but He existed in the form (Gr: morphe) of God. The Word Who was with God in the beginning and was God.

In John 8:5, Jesus claimed, at the very least, pre-existence before Abraham:

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“Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

And then there are these others from John:

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John 3:13 13”No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. John 3:17 17″For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him John 6:33 33″For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” John 6:38 38″For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. John 6:62 62″What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? John 8:23 23″And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. John 16:28 28 “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.” John 17:5 5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

This to me is overwhelming evidence in favour of Christ’s pre-existence. I really can’t see how you anyone could refute all this without attacking the integrity of the word of God. Its just so blatantly obvious that He pre-existed.

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For the record, here is what I believe about Satan: 1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.” 2 Corinthians 11:14 “For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.” (Just in case it isn't clear from the above, no, I do not hold to the doctrine that Satan is a fallen cherub.  That may or may not be true, but it does not concern me in the least.  I am more concerned with avoiding his deception than figuring out his personal history.)

Although it’s basically a universally-accepted truth that he is a fallen angel, this particular aspect of his history is not explicitly revealed in the Bible. Instead we have a body of evidence that strongly suggests this is the case. My point is this; although there is no one passage that explicitly affirms this belief, I think it is nonetheless perfectly acceptable to assume he is a fallen angle based on the good evidence. Therefore, not all biblical truths are explicitly revealed.

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Are there any other aspects of my faith that you would like me to lay out from scripture alone?

Well yeah, I asked for all the doctrines that comprises your theology

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In the meantime, will you now comply with my request in good faith?

Just as soon as you decisively prove to me that all your doctrines are explicitly taught in scripture. So far you are 0 for 1.

Be well.

[Anonymous]

Quote (callsign @ June 24 2005,08:07)

Quote (callsign @ June 24 2005,07:13) Quote (Guest @ June 24 2005,06:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2005,04:39) ps, The Son of God was not the only supernatural being to become incarnate. Satan did too with Judas and with the Beast. The bible classifies beings: 1)  God 2)  angels 3)  man 4)  beasts —————— So where do you put Christ? All other gods are false – there are no “demigods” ——————- The scriptures call him THE Son of God not an angel (sons of God, which are created beings) ——————- In biological terms: an asexual creature reproduces a genetically identical replication. FYI,  Psalm 82: 6 I (A)said, “You are gods,         And all of you are (B)sons of the Most High. You never answer direct questions. You ramble on and answer a question with a question. Your retorical remarks arn't proving anything to me. One giant circle that will never end. You said there are no demigods or other gods, but it says in psalms there is. S FYI, In biological terms: an asexual creature reproduces a genetically identical replication. thats helarious, So Jesus just looked like a Male? Thats why they called Him a He. So you actually don't believe that God impregnated Mary with His seed miraculously? Virgin Birth? Arn't you a catholic? Isn't that suppose to be extremely high on your list to believe in? I don't believe God to be Asexual, I believe Him to be Male. And no it doesn't say God is male anywhere in the bible, but it does use the right VERBAGE, Do you call God IT, or He? wasn't Man made in Their Image? So that means all of them have the same utensils as all Men. S

callsign,

Isaiah 63:16 – Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Micah 5:2 – But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Habakkuk 1:12 – Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Psalms 93:2 – Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Psalms 90:2 – Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

John 17:5 – And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

1 John 1:1 – That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:5 – Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

————————

Do you believe Christ pre-existed the incarnation?

Scripture overwhelmingly says He did, and that He was with God and was God.

Since there is only ONE True God, The Word is in compound unity the Father – they are YHWH.

Phillipians 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped (Gr+harpogamos=prized, retained), 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

———————-

We were NOT saved by an angel or demigod – we were saved by the Word of God who was from everlasting God, and was born a servant (human) to die for our sins.

[Anonymous]

Quote (callsign @ June 24 2005,07:13)

Quote (Guest @ June 24 2005,06:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2005,04:39) ps, The Son of God was not the only supernatural being to become incarnate. Satan did too with Judas and with the Beast. The bible classifies beings: 1)  God 2)  angels 3)  man 4)  beasts —————— So where do you put Christ? All other gods are false – there are no “demigods” ——————- The scriptures call him THE Son of God not an angel (sons of God, which are created beings) ——————- In biological terms: an asexual creature reproduces a genetically identical replication. FYI,  Psalm 82: 6 I (A)said, “You are gods,         And all of you are (B)sons of the Most High. You never answer direct questions. You ramble on and answer a question with a question. Your retorical remarks arn't proving anything to me. One giant circle that will never end. You said there are no demigods or other gods, but it says in psalms there is. S

callsign,

Please explain to me how Christ can be Lord of lords when YHWH alone is Lord of lords?

Deuteronomy 10:17 – For the LORD (YHWH) your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

and please don't tell me He was appointed to be such because that just contradicts an entire other set of scriptures.

[WhatIsTrue]

Is 1:18,

Excellent post!  You have made a “scriptural alone” case for the pre-existence of the Messiah.  (Nick and T8 have already done this many times.)  Frankly, I have far less issue with people who believe in Messiah's pre-existence than I do with those who believe in the Trinity for precisely this reason.  One can make a “scriptural alone” case for the doctrine of pre-existence.  However, the same can not be done with the Trinity doctrine.

You wrote:

Quote

Yes. Where is the verse that explicitly states that Christ did not pre-exist? It isn’t there. Thank you WIT you’ve unequivocally proven my point.

If you are asking me to prove a negative than your request is both unreasonable and different than the challenge that I issued to you and other Trinitarians.  I don't believe that Messiah is part emu or that he wore pink while he was on earth, but there is no way that I can prove that negative belief from scripture alone.  What I can prove is what I actually believe, which is that Messiah was prophesied to be a man and that the man Yeshua fulfilled that prophecy.  That is what I believe, and that is what I showed you from scripture alone.

Again, ask me to show you any particular belief of mine from scripture alone and I will.  That is also what I am asking you to do.  Is that not fair?  You have already made your scriptural case for Messiah's pre-existence, and I applaud you, (even if I disagree with you for reasons that I stated on pg 169 and 176 of this topic).  Now all I am asking you to do is to make the same case for the Trinity doctrine.

You wrote:

Quote

Although it’s basically a universally-accepted truth that [Satan] is a fallen angel, this particular aspect of his history is not explicitly revealed in the Bible.

Again, I am not concerned if something is “universally held”.  If it is not proven from scripture alone, it does not hold any weight with me.

By the way…

You wrote:

Quote

Instead you gave me a handful of ambiguous one including the highly questionable 2 Samuel 7:14. I think its submission as a ‘messianic’ prophecy is highly dubious, and if you bothered to quote the whole of v14 others would see why: Here it is in its entirety: Quote   2 Samuel 7:14 14 I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men

You have a quarrel with the writer of Hebrews, not with me.

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Hebrews 1:5 “For to which of the angels did He ever say:       'You are My Son,       Today I have begotten You'?    And again:       'I will be to Him a Father,       And He shall be to Me a Son'?”

It's a double prophecy, applicable to Solomon and the promised Messiah.  But don't take my word for it.  Read Isaiah 7:14 in context and tell me if that is a “misapplied” prophecy to Messiah.

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Isaiah 7:1,14-16 “Now it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to make war against it, but could not prevail against it. … Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. [YHWH] will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father's house–days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.”

You wrote:

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Quote   In the meantime, will you now comply with my request in good faith? Just as soon as you decisively prove to me that all your doctrines are explicitly taught in scripture. So far you are 0 for 1.

I think that this is an unreasonable request.  I have asked you to show me one doctrine.  You are asking me to show you everything I know from scripture.  I am willing to show you anything you ask for, but I am not going to start randomly posting all of my beliefs to this discussion topic.  I ask you again, will you comply with my request, or will you just admit fully, (as you already have partially), that the Trinity doctrine is nowhere taught in the bible explicitly?  Afterall, based on your comments about Satan, it would appear that you are perfectly fine with that.  Why not just admit to the truth of the matter openly?

[NickHassan]

Hi FYI,
How can a being be equal with another and at the same time also be that other being?
Of course God can be Lord of Lords and so also Jesus Christ. Only the father is Lord of ALL Lords.
Jesus Christ is the Son of Yahweh or none of us are Sons of our fathers as Ephesians tell us their relationship is the basis of ours.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God who was with God in the beginning. He always had unique status being the only being completely and directly derived from the Father as an image. He is the firstborn, the first and the last, the living one through whom God created everything that was created. If he was not separate from God he could not be with that God and none of the above scriptural claims about him could be true.

It was essential to the plan of God that he be separate because unless he was his obedience would have no significance. He also could not be sent and the most important part was that he could not be the vessel for His Father on earth is he was that Father. God visited and redeemed his people within the body and soul of Christ as the Spirit. God came as saviour and saved us through the saving vessel, Christ.

Demigod is not a scriptural word. He was never a deity as that is how beings that are worshipped are described and he was not worshipped before he came as man recorded anywhere in scripture. He became a vessel for the fulness of his Father's deity. He also will be worshipped by all natural men who are outside of him when he returns as that is the plan of God and gives glory to God.

He was never an angel or archangel and they were created through him and he was always higher than them except for his time on earth. He was the highest of the sons of God in every way and the only son of God to have divine nature.

Hope this helps. Blessings to you and yours.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Isa 1:18 said >>>>  This to me is overwhelming evidence in favour of Christ’s pre-existence. I really can’t see how you anyone could refute all this without attacking the integrity of the word of God. Its just so blatantly obvious that He pre-existed.

Peace greetings Isa 1:18,

I do not believe that the Scriptures that you posted are overwhelming evidence that Yahshua pre-existed. I plan on building a website in the near future to refute the Scriptures that seem to imply that Yahshua pre-existed, that he was co-creator, Father Yahweh's spokesman from the beginning, that he is an “eternal son” (I believe that he is the “begotten son” and not “eternal” and that “eternal son is unscriptural.), and etc. I have already studied this out and have come to the conclusion that Yahshua did not pre-exist.

As time allows me, I will post some refutes on this doctrine of a pre-existant Yahshua in the near future to this forum for you to consider. Hopefully you are one who has the words “reproof” and “correction” at the forefront of your Scriptural vocabulary. Scripturally, you would be a fool if you did not.

Yahshua did not “pre-exist”.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2005,18:39)

Hi FYI, How can a being be equal with another and at the same time also be that other being? Of course God can be Lord of Lords and so also Jesus Christ. Only the father is Lord of ALL Lords. Jesus Christ is the Son of Yahweh or none of us are Sons of our fathers as Ephesians tell us their relationship is the basis of ours.

Nick,

“How can a being be equal with another and at the same time also be that other being?”

We are not talking about a “being” that can be defined in human terms.

God is a Spirit. Yet you talk about him as if he is corporeal.

God has a Holy Spirit – Comforter, Spirit of Truth and are described as lamps:

Revelation 4:5 – And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Christ, the Word of God made flesh, is described as a torch:

Revelation 21:23 – And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

This alone is inexplicable. Yet it is proven by scripture.

Yet we are adopted as sons and are told that the spirit of Christ and of the Father reside in us when we are “born-again” and yet we are told they are “one” spirit.

lamp/light:

denotes “a torch” (akin to lampo, “to shine”), frequently fed, like, a “lamp,” with oil from a little vessel used for the purpose (the angeion of Matt. 25:4); they held little oil and would frequently need replenishing. Rutherford (The New Phrynichus) points out that it became used as the equivalent of luchnos (No. 2), as in the parable of the ten virgins, Matt. 25:1,3,4,7,8; John 18:3, “torches;” Acts 20:8, “lights;” Rev. 4:5; 8:10 (RV, “torch,” AV, “lamp”). See Note below. Cp. phanos, “a torch,” John 18:3 (translated “lanterns”).

frequently mistranslated “candle,” is a portable “lamp” usually set on a stand (see LAMPSTAND); the word is used literally, Matt. 5:15; Mark 4:21; Luke 8:16; 11:33,36; 15:8; Rev. 18:23; 22:5; (b) metaphorically, of Christ as the Lamb, Rev. 21:23, RV, “lamp” (AV, “light”); of John the Baptist, John 5:35, RV, “the lamp” (AV, “a … light”); of the eye, Matt. 6:22; Luke 11:34, RV, “lamp;” of spiritual readiness, Luke 12:35, RV, “lamps;” of “the word of prophecy,” 2 Pet. 1:19, RV, “lamp.” See LIGHT.

“In rendering luchnos and lampas our translators have scarcely made the most of the words at their command. Had they rendered lampas by 'torch' not once only (John 18:3), but always, this would have left 'lamp,' now wrongly appropriated by lampas, disengaged. Altogether dismissing 'candle,' they might then have rendered luchnos by 'lamp' wherever it occurs. At present there are so many occasions where 'candle' would manifestly be inappropriate, and where, therefore, they are obliged to fall back on 'light,' that the distinction between phos and luchnos nearly, if not quite, disappears in our Version. The advantages of such a re-distribution of the words would be many. In the first place, it would be more accurate. Luchnos is not a 'candle' ('candela,' from 'candeo,' the white wax light, and then any kind of taper), but a hand-lamp, fed with oil. Neither is lampas a 'lamp,' but a 'torch'” (Trench Syn.,).

Note: There is no mention of a candle in the original either in the OT or in the NT. The figure of that which feeds upon its own substance to provide its light would be utterly inappropriate. A lamp is supplied by oil, which in its symbolism is figurative of the Holy Spirit.

[NickHassan]

Hi FYI,
Your highlighting of what is allegorical and mysterious does not make all of scripture mysterious. God is Spirit but He begat a Son. That is fact.
God is light. The Son of God was full of light and truth. He and the Father now remain one forever.The son of God is now eternally filled with that light. He remains a vessel that the oil of the Spirit burns in and gives light forever.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2005,20:39)

Hi FYI, Your highlighting of what is allegorical and mysterious does not make all of scripture mysterious. God is Spirit but He begat a Son. That is fact. God is light. the Son of God was full of light and truth. He and the Father now remain one forever.The son of God is now eternally filled with that light. He remains a vessel that the oil of the Spirit can burn and give light forever.

Nick,

In what form was He begotten?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The Son of God is the image of the Father, who is spirit.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2005,20:50)

Hi, The Son of God is the image of the Father, who is spirit.

Phillipians 2:6 says the “form of God”. Not a “vessel”.

[epistemaniac]

WIT, you said “If you understood the challenge that I issued, you would recognize that you haven't even come close to complying with it, (like Is 1:18 recognizes).  Keep reading though.  In my response to Is 1:18, I will demonstrate what I mean.”

WIT… no… it's not obvious at all… why don't you spell it out for me… if I have not complied with the doctrine you can thank trinitarians for, namely sola scriptura, then please, by all means, show me the error of my ways….

[Author]

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