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FYI,
By you saying that one is ignorant you are saying that you are wise in your ways. I am saying this directly to you, in an orderly fashion as well as humble. Imagine the world as a whole. The world without endless belief knowledge circumstance, without air. Would you have the faith to move a mountain based on the belief you believe?
Put our shoes on for a minute, take a deep breath. Why do you think we think the way we do? I am not perfect, correct. In no circumstance do I think I am perfect. If I were in your shoes believing the way you do the world would be a much brighter place, it would be very easy. The world(everyone) accepts you for who you are. The world rejects me, everyone including “your church”. Imagine everyone around you, coworkers, business partners, classmates, random people. Tell them that you disagree with the whole theory behind what “your church” is all about. The world rejects you, not one accepts you for who you are, You belong to no Social organization that acts as if you were one of it's own. If I did agree with what you believe the world would be much easier then what I am living in now, spiritual, physically, and emmotionally. The point I am trying to raise here is this.
Trinity or no trinity, God or no God, Jesus or No Jesus. If I were to place my whole life whole being on what I believe I would, all my chips right in the table. Would you call or would you fold. Thats the question.
S
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2005,03:02) Hi FYI,
Where is this treasure then to be found? Which denomination holds the key to this esoteric wisdom? How can we prove it to be true or should we take it in faith. Does it always agree with the Word of God? Has it stopped evolving yet?
It is found on your knees before the Lord in humble submission to your head.Quote (callsign @ June 23 2005,10:10) FYI, By you saying that one is ignorant you are saying that you are wise in your ways. I am saying this directly to you, in an orderly fashion as well as humble. Imagine the world as a whole. The world without endless belief knowledge circumstance, without air. Would you have the faith to move a mountain based on the belief you believe?
Put our shoes on for a minute, take a deep breath. Why do you think we think the way we do? I am not perfect, correct. In no circumstance do I think I am perfect. If I were in your shoes believing the way you do the world would be a much brighter place, it would be very easy. The world(everyone) accepts you for who you are. The world rejects me, everyone including “your church”. Imagine everyone around you, coworkers, business partners, classmates, random people. Tell them that you disagree with the whole theory behind what “your church” is all about. The world rejects you, not one accepts you for who you are, You belong to no Social organization that acts as if you were one of it's own. If I did agree with what you believe the world would be much easier then what I am living in now, spiritual, physically, and emmotionally. The point I am trying to raise here is this.
Trinity or no trinity, God or no God, Jesus or No Jesus. If I were to place my whole life whole being on what I believe I would, all my chips right in the table. Would you call or would you fold. Thats the question.
S
callsign,Please answer me this,
What type of “being” was the Word of God prior to His incarnation?
The answer is the same as the answer to these:
Why did Christ ask His disciples who “the people” thought He was?
Why did Christ ask His disciples who “they” thought He was?
Why did Christ tell Peter and many others as well “not to tell” anyony that He was the Christ?
Hi FYI,
Are you saying he deliberately left his followers to find out new revelation about God after he left?
No.
They would make them then greater teachers than he. They would also be adding to scripture.Revelation and 2John is very clear that adding to scripture is an evil and dangerous activity. Such thinking is akin to Islamic thought that Jesus was only a prophet and that Mahommed was the next prophet in line.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2005,17:21) Hi FYI,
Are you saying he deliberately left his followers to find out new revelation about God after he left?
No.
They would make them then greater teachers than he. They would also be adding to scripture.Revelation and 2John is very clear that adding to scripture is an evil and dangerous activity. Such thinking is akin to Islamic thought that Jesus was only a prophet and that Mahommed was the next prophet in line.
Why are you putting words in my mouth?…and then rebuking me for the words I didn't say?
What kind of teacher are you?
Do you not have an intelligent answer so figure this will thow me off the trail?
Answer the question!
epistemaniac,
If you understood the challenge that I issued, you would recognize that you haven't even come close to complying with it, (like Is 1:18 recognizes). Keep reading though. In my response to Is 1:18, I will demonstrate what I mean.
Is 1:18,
My goodness!! I thought for sure that you had long since retired from this forum. It's good to see you, (even though it is obvious that you are not quite as happy to see me).
As you requested, here is what I believe about Messiah:
Quote Deuteronomy 18:15-19
“[YHWH] your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear …
'I [YHWH] will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.”Quote 2 Samuel 7:12-14
“'When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I[YHWH] will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.”Quote Psalm 89:27
“Also I[YHWH] will make him My firstborn,
The highest of the kings of the earth.”Quote Acts 10:38-42
“…God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with him after he arose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is he who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.Quote 1 Corinthians 15:45
“The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”Quote Daniel 7:13-14
“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, one like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought him near before Him.
Then to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And his kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.”Any questions?
For the record, here is what I believe about Satan:
Quote 1 Peter 5:8
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.”Quote 2 Corinthians 11:14
“For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.”Any questions?
(Just in case it isn't clear from the above, no, I do not hold to the doctrine that Satan is a fallen cherub. That may or may not be true, but it does not concern me in the least. I am more concerned with avoiding his deception than figuring out his personal history.)
Are there any other aspects of my faith that you would like me to lay out from scripture alone? In the meantime, will you now comply with my request in good faith? I stand ready to defend all my beliefs this way, (or cast them aside if they fail this test). Do you?
epistemaniac,
I think that I have made it clear now how one demonstrates his beliefs from scripture alone, without interjection. You have not done this. You can do so now if you wish to prove me wrong about the Trinity doctrine. Otherwise, be advised that you are teaching an extra-biblical doctrine. Certainly, one can choose to read the scriptures with the Trinitarian perspective already in mind, but the scriptures themselves do not once espouse the doctrine plainly. Do you admit this, or would you like to show me otherwise?
Quote (Guest @ June 23 2005,17:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2005,17:21) Hi FYI,
Are you saying he deliberately left his followers to find out new revelation about God after he left?
No.
They would make them then greater teachers than he. They would also be adding to scripture.Revelation and 2John is very clear that adding to scripture is an evil and dangerous activity. Such thinking is akin to Islamic thought that Jesus was only a prophet and that Mahommed was the next prophet in line.
Why are you putting words in my mouth?…and then rebuking me for the words I didn't say?
What kind of teacher are you?
Do you not have an intelligent answer so figure this will thow me off the trail?
Answer the question!
Hi FYI,
The catholic church teaches that her traditions are a continuation of divine revelation. These statements appear in the documents of Vatican 2. She teaches that the apostle Peter's “followers” continue to develop God's teachings and that these have equal validity with the Word of God.
Is this what you mean?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2005,20:38) Quote (Guest @ June 23 2005,17:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2005,17:21) Hi FYI,
Are you saying he deliberately left his followers to find out new revelation about God after he left?
No.
They would make them then greater teachers than he. They would also be adding to scripture.Revelation and 2John is very clear that adding to scripture is an evil and dangerous activity. Such thinking is akin to Islamic thought that Jesus was only a prophet and that Mahommed was the next prophet in line.
Why are you putting words in my mouth?…and then rebuking me for the words I didn't say?
What kind of teacher are you?
Do you not have an intelligent answer so figure this will thow me off the trail?
Answer the question!
Hi FYI,
The catholic church teaches that her traditions are a continuation of divine revelation. These statements appear in the documents of Vatican 2. She teaches that the apostle Peter's “followers” continue to develop God's teachings and that these have equal validity with the Word of God.
Is this what you mean?
Nick,No, your comment thereof is the first I've heard of that.
Can you provide some quotes and links to documented literature on what you speak of, or is this an unsubstantiated comment?
“The catholic church teaches that her traditions are a continuation of divine revelation.”
I do not agree with that – man's traditions have no place in truth.
I simply wanted your exegetical interpretation of the scriptures.
Is that ok with you?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2005,21:56) Hi FYI,
Why don't you?
Nick,You want me to answer my own question?
What kind of dialogue is that – I don't need to be online for that.
Quote Nick, No, your comment thereof is the first I've heard of that.
Can you provide some quotes and links to documented literature on what you speak of, or is this an unsubstantiated comment?
“The catholic church teaches that her traditions are a continuation of divine revelation.”
I do not agree with that – man's traditions have no place in truth.
FYI,
This is an excerpt from the official Vatican II document:
Quote For as the centuries succeed one another,
the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine
truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in
her. … Hence there exists a close connection and communication
between sacred tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them,
flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge
into a unity and tend toward the same end. … Consequently it is not from sacred
Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about
everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred
tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated
with the same sense of loyalty and reverence. … But the task of authentically interpreting the Word of God,
whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to
the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is
exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. … It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, sacred Scripture
and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God's most
wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot
stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own
way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute
effectively to the salvation of souls.http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/dei.ver
Unlike protestant churches, the catholic church openly admits that its doctrines evolved, and continue to evolve, after the time of the apostles. That is why all who confess the Trinity are confessing faith in the catholic church, for it is only in the catholic church tradition that you will find this doctrine taught plainly.
Hi FYI,
You have something you want to teach us based on our answer to the question so you could just spill the beans.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 23 2005,22:09) Quote Nick, No, your comment thereof is the first I've heard of that.
Can you provide some quotes and links to documented literature on what you speak of, or is this an unsubstantiated comment?
“The catholic church teaches that her traditions are a continuation of divine revelation.”
I do not agree with that – man's traditions have no place in truth.
FYI,
This is an excerpt from the official Vatican II document:
Quote For as the centuries succeed one another,
the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine
truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in
her. … Hence there exists a close connection and communication
between sacred tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them,
flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge
into a unity and tend toward the same end. … Consequently it is not from sacred
Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about
everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred
tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated
with the same sense of loyalty and reverence. … But the task of authentically interpreting the Word of God,
whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to
the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is
exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. … It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, sacred Scripture
and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God's most
wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot
stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own
way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute
effectively to the salvation of souls.http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/dei.ver
Unlike protestant churches, the catholic church openly admits that its doctrines evolved, and continue to evolve, after the time of the apostles. That is why all who confess the Trinity are confessing faith in the catholic church, for it is only in the catholic church tradition that you will find this doctrine taught plainly.
WIT,Thank you.
I had only heard of that in the past. The link will be helpful.
BTW – I agree that they are way off base and it has led them to innumerable errors.
Hi FYI,
And as WIT shows the Whore has many daughters who continue blindly in her falsehoods.
“Come out of her my people lest you suffer for her sins”Hi FYI,
Was Jesus Christ any different to us as a child or a young adult in your view? Did he have the power then?
The incarnation of Jesus Christ , tha son of God, is a wonderful event that enabled God's plan to be fulfilled but it did not bring God's power to the people. He was still like us, a vessel and an utterly magnificent one in a body, till he was Baptised and filled with the Spirit of God which brought God and His power to men. It was not his nature that did the work but God in him and he worked “by the finger of God”. Likewise “God is at work in us to will and to do”, by that same Spirit.Do you agree?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2005,22:48) Hi FYI,
And as WIT shows the Whore has many daughters who continue blindly in her falsehoods.
“Come out of her my people lest you suffer for her sins”
Nick,that subject is too much to go into and get off the subject at hand – so I'll go to the other one. OK?
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