The Trinity Doctrine

[Anonymous]

Hi Nick Hassan.
So do you accept my challenge? Its hard to tell, remember i asked for a simple yes or no. You may even go first if you like.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ June 21 2005,21:05)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2005,11:28) Hi kenosis and FYI, You need to make your mind up who your God is. If your God is a trinity God it is not the creator God of the bible. It is a strange god of the babylonians. Hi Nick Hassan. This kind of post is not helpful. I have already told you who my God is (YaHWeY), so what do I have to make my mind up about? If the tri-unity is demonstrably false then it should be easy for you to prove this by explaining the scriptures that support the doctrine, within a unitarian framework. If i post you some of them would you be willing to do this? Please answer yes or no. Hi Atrizan007. For you, is Jesus “God” or “a god”?

Hi K,
What is Unitarian?
We are not unitarian.
Neither do we speak trintarianese.

You have to disprove the simple truth that God is God and the Son is His son to take down the foundation of true faith before you can build your shaky and conflicting and confusing doctrine of trinity theory.

We always listen and check out what you say.

[NickHassan]

Quote (liljon @ June 21 2005,23:48)

The trinity is in the bible whether you believe or not.

Where liljon? I have yet to find the word.

[Anonymous]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 21 2005,23:02)

Gentleman, I see a lot has transpired since the last time I was here.  It seems that the discussion has exploded in my absence.  Nevertheless, from what I skimmed, it would appear that some basic facts have yet to be established, so I hope to help in doing so. Trinitarians, Here is a simple question and a challenge for you: Do you believe that scripture alone should establish the fundamental doctrines of the faith, or do you believe that we inherit our fundamental beliefs from tradition? If you answer the former, then here is my challenge to you: Construct a definition of the Trinity using scripture alone – no interjections of your interpretations, just the scriptures themselves, arranged in whatever order you like, in such a way as to explain the Trinity doctrine. When you fail at this task, you will then be confronted with this basic truth: The Trinity doctrine is a belief established by tradition.  You can take that doctrine and read it back into scripture if you so choose, but you will not find it taught anywhere in the scriptures themselves. If you don't believe me, take the challenge and prove me wrong if you like! FYI, It's good to see you actually discussing the issue openly these days!

This is easy, but i doubt you will believe – without eyes to see you cannot see even if you stare right at it.

We are to incur blessings from one source in heaven. Funny how those blessings change from YHWH ALONE (echad) in the OT to 2 & 3 in the New:

I'll do it with doxology alone:

OT doxology:

May God be gracious to us and bless us and make his face shine upon us, (Ps 67.1)

Say to them: “The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace.” (Num 6.23f)

Eli would bless Elkanah and his wife, saying, “May the LORD give you children by this woman (I Sam 2.20)

The benediction/prayer of Jacob in Gen 48: “Then he blessed Joseph and said, 'May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, the Angel who has delivered me from all harm — may he bless these boys.

NT doxology:

2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Cor 13.14)

Rom 1.7 (and 2 Cor 1.2, 1 Cor 1.3, Eph 1.2, Phil 1.2): Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 16.20: The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

I Cor 16.23: The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you.

Rev 1.4: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Eph 6.23: Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 1.3-4: Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort

Gal 1.3: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/cw4hx.html

Main Entry: dox·ol·o·gy
Pronunciation: däk-'sä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -gies
Etymology: Medieval Latin doxologia, from Late Greek, from Greek doxa opinion, glory (from dokein to seem, seem good) + -logia -logy — more at DECENT
: a usually liturgical expression of praise to God

Glorify – (1.) To make glorious, or cause so to appear (John 12:28; 13:31, 32; 17:4,5).

(2.) Spoken of God to “shew forth his praise” (1 Cor. 6:20; 10:31).

Glory – (Heb. kabhod; Gr. doxa). (1.) Abundance, wealth, treasure, and hence honour (Ps. 49:12); glory (Gen. 31:1; Matt. 4:8; Rev. 21:24, 26).

(2.) Honour, dignity (1 Kings 3:13; Heb. 2:7 1 Pet. 1:24); of God (Ps. 19:1; 29:1); of the mind or heart (Gen. 49:6; Ps. 7:5; Acts 2:46).

(3.) Splendour, brightness, majesty (Gen. 45:13; Isa. 4:5; Acts 22:11; 2 Cor. 3:7); of Jehovah (Isa. 59:19; 60:1; 2 Thess. 1:9).

(4.) The glorious moral attributes, the infinite perfections of God (Isa. 40:5; Acts 7:2; Rom. 1:23; 9:23; Eph. 1:12). Jesus is the “brightness of the Father's glory” (Heb. 1:3; John 1:14; 2:11).

(5.) The bliss of heaven (Rom. 2:7, 10; 5:2; 8:18; Heb. 2:10; 1 Pet. 5:1, 10).

(6.) The phrase “Give glory to God” (Josh. 7:19; Jer. 13:16) is a Hebrew idiom meaning, “Confess your sins.” The words of the Jews to the blind man, “Give God the praise” (John 9:24), are an adjuration to confess. They are equivalent to, “Confess that you are an impostor,” “Give God the glory by speaking the truth;” for they denied that a miracle had been wrought.

Worship – homage rendered to God which it is sinful (idolatry) to render to any created being (Ex. 34:14; Isa. 2:8). Such worship was refused by Peter (Acts 10:25,26) and by an angel (Rev. 22:8,9).

“glory” (from dokeo, “to seem”), primarily signifies an opinion, estimate, and hence, the honor resulting from a good opinion. It is used (1) (a) of the nature and acts of God in self-manifestation, i.e., what He essentially is and does, as exhibited in whatever way he reveals Himself in these respects, and particularly in the person of Christ, in whom essentially His “glory” has ever shone forth and ever will do, John 17:5,24; Heb. 1:3; it was exhibited in the character and acts of Christ in the days of His flesh, John 1:14; John 2:11; at Cana both His grace and His power were manifested, and these constituted His “glory;” so also in the resurrection of Lazarus, John 11:4,40; the “glory” of God was exhibited in the resurrection of Christ, Rom. 6:4, and in His ascension and exaltation, 1 Pet. 1:21, likewise on the Mount of Transfiguration, 2 Pet. 1:17. In Rom. 1:23 His “everlasting power and Divinity” are spoken of as His “glory,” i.e., His attributes and power as revealed through creation; in Rom. 3:23 the word denotes the manifested perfection of His character, especially His righteousness, of which all men fall short; in Col. 1:11 “the might of His glory” signifies the might which is characteristic of His “glory;” in Eph. 1:6,12,14, “the praise of the glory of His grace” and “the praise of His glory” signify the due acknowledgement of the exhibition of His attributes and ways; in Eph. 1:17, “the Father of glory” describes Him as the source from whom all Divine splendor and perfection proceed in their manifestation, and to whom they belong; (b) of the character and ways of God as exhibited through Christ to and through believers, 2 Cor. 3:18; 4:6; Â of the state of blessedness into which believers are to enter hereafter through being brought into the likeness of Christ, e.g., Rom. 8:18,21; Phil. 3:21 (RV, “the body of His glory”); 1 Pet. 5:1,10; Rev. 21:11; (d) brightness or splendor, (1) supernatural, emanating from God (as in the shekinah “glory,” in the pillar of cloud and in the Holy of Holies, e.g., Exod. 16:10; 25:22), Luke 2:9; Acts 22:11; Rom. 9:4; 2 Cor. 3:7; Jas. 2:1; in Titus 2:13 it is used of Christ's return “the appearin
g of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ” (RV); cp. Phil. 3:21, above; (2) natural, as of the heavenly bodies, 1 Cor. 15:40,41; (II) of good reputation, praise, honor, Luke 14:10 (RV, “glory,” for AV, “worship”); John 5:41 (RV, “glory,” for AV, “honor”); John 7:18; 8:50; 12:43 (RV, “glory,” for AV, “praise”); 2 Cor. 6:8 (RV, “glory,” for AV “honor”); Phil. 3:19; Heb. 3:3; in 1 Cor. 11:7, of man as representing the authority of God, and of woman as rendering conspicuous the authority of man; in 1 Thess. 2:6, “glory” probably stands, by metonymy, for material gifts, an honorarium, since in human estimation “glory” is usually expressed in things material.

The word is used in ascriptions of praise to God, e.g., Luke 17:18; John 9:24, RV, “glory” (AV, “praise”); Acts 12:23; as in doxologies (lit., “glory-words”), e.g., Luke 2:14; Rom. 11:36; 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Rev. 1:6. See DIGNITY, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP.

“to make obeisance, do reverence to” (from pros, “towards,” and kuneo, “to kiss”), is the most frequent word rendered “to worship.” It is used of an act of homage or reverence (a) to God, e.g., Matt. 4:10; John 4:21-24; 1 Cor. 14:25; Rev. 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 11:16; 19:10 (2nd part); 22:9; (b) to Christ, e.g., Matt. 2:2,8,11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9,17; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6, in a quotation from the Sept. of Deut. 32:43, referring to Christ's Second Advent; Â to a man, Matt. 18:26; (d) to the Dragon, by men, Rev. 13:4; (e) to the Beast, his human instrument, Rev. 13:4,8,12; 14:9,11; (f) the image of the Beast, Rev. 13:15; 14:11; 16:2; (g) to demons, Rev. 9:20; (h) to idols, Acts 7:43.

Note: As to Matt. 18:26, this is mentioned as follows, in the “List of readings and renderings preferred by the American Committee” (see RV Classes of Passages, IV): “At the word 'worship' in Matt. 2:2, etc., add the marginal note 'The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man (see chap. Matt. 18:26) or to God (see chap. Matt. 4:10)'.” The Note to John 9:38 in the American Standard Version in this connection is most unsound; it implies that Christ was a creature. J. N. Darby renders the verb “do homage” [see the Revised Preface to the Second Edition (1871) of his New Translation].

“to revere,” stressing the feeling of awe or devotion, is used of “worship” (a) to God, Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7; Acts 16:14; 18:7,13; (b) to a goddess, Acts 19:27. See DEVOUT, No. 3.

akin to No. 2, “to honor religiously,” is used in Rom. 1:25.

“to serve, to render religious service or homage,” is translated “to worship” in Phil. 3:3, “(who) worship (by the Spirit of God),” RV, AV, “(which) worship (God in the spirit);” the RV renders it “to serve” (for AV, “to worship”) in Acts 7:42; 24:14; AV and RV, “(the) worshipers” in Heb. 10:2, present participle, lit., “(the ones) worshiping.” See SERVE.

“to act piously towards,” is translated “ye worship” in Acts 17:23. See PIETY (to show).

Notes: (1) The worship of God is nowhere defined in Scripture. A consideration of the above verbs shows that it is not confined to praise; broadly it may be regarded as the direct acknowledgement to God, of His nature, attributes, ways and claims, whether by the outgoing of the heart in praise and thanksgiving or by deed done in such acknowledgment. (2) In Acts 17:25 therapeuo, “to serve, do service to” (so RV), is rendered “is worshiped.” See CURE, HEAL.

denotes “an object of worship” (akin to A, No. 3); Acts 17:23 (see DEVOTION); in 2 Thess. 2:4, “that is worshiped;” every object of “worship,” whether the true God or pagan idols, will come under the ban of the Man of Sin.

“will-worship” (ethelo, “to will,” threskeia, “worship”), occurs in Col. 2:23, voluntarily adopted “worship,” whether unbidden or forbidden, not that which is imposed by others, but which one affects.

for which see RELIGION, is translated “worshiping” in Col. 2:18.

Note: In Luke 14:10, AV, doxa, “glory” (RV), is translated “worship.”

[NickHassan]

Hi FYI,
While the length of your discourses and quotes are impressive they do not show that Jesus is the God or part of God of the OT. All grace and power comes from God to men through Jesus Christ so they are also from him. That does not show he is the source of those things but the conduit. Just as he is also the intermediary for our relationship with God in all things.
Sure wine comes from the grape but it is also from the vine and also from the soil. The fact that it is from the grape does not disprove it as coming from the vine. Neither does it make the grape also a grapevine.

[Anonymous]

Really,

Acts 20:28 – Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[NickHassan]

Hi FYI,
A popular verse for those desperate to try and prove the impossible-that Jesus is the God of the OT and not therefore the Son of that God. You will know, of course, that some manuscripts read differently here.

God is spirit and not body.God does not bleed. Jesus is not that God because he was a son of David. But Christ too is of the family of God as the Son and so it was with “His blood”, the blood of His family.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2005,03:13)

Hi FYI, A popular verse for those desperate to try and prove the impossible-that Jesus is the God of the OT and not therefore the Son of that God. You will know, of course, that some manuscripts read differently here. God is spirit and not body.God does not bleed.  Jesus is not that God because he was a son of David. But Christ too is of the family of God as the Son and so it was with “His blood”, the blood of His family.

You misunderstand Nick,

I am by no means “desparate”! I am excited and “on fire” with the power of the Holy Spirit!

This is pure joy!!!

Strange, I show you proof positive and you try and make it a negative! You are found out and found “wanting”.

[NickHassan]

Hi FYI,
Sorry you have done little to promote your hopeless cause. Jesus Christ is the Son of God whom came in the flesh. God did not come in the flesh-that is antichrist.

If The Son of God was equal with the Father then was he not part of the Father? How can one being be part of and also equal with another?

Is Christ another deity after all to you?

[Anonymous]

Hi Nick Hassan.
I have to assume that you have decided to decline my challenge. That is a shame because i thought you might see it as a good opportunity to “expose” the faultiness of the doctrine. Since you did not 'front up', any future attacks on the veracity of the trinity doctine by you will, to me, appear somewhat hollow.

[NickHassan]

Hi K,
Just as soon as we agree that God is God, and the Son of God is the Son of God and not that God, we can dialogue on other matters of lesser importance. But are we sure we talk about the same God?

God agrees with this and so does Jesus and Peter and Paul. Do you know better references than these?

[callsign]

REV 3:14″To the angel of the church in (AT)Laodicea write: (AU)The Amen, (AV)the faithful and true Witness, (AW)the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Plain english says Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God.

Easy to understand The Alpha and Omega. The First and the Last.

S

[Anonymous]

““The beginning and the creation of God.” The word “beginning” is the Greek word arch meaning (a) first in time or (b) first in place, cause, or origin. The point is Jesus Christ is the origin, the cause, the Creator of all things (John 1:3; Col. 1:16-17; Rev. 1:8; 21:6). He is the Creator of this earth, now fallen under the curse of sin through rebellion to Him. But He is also the Creator of the coming kingdom and the eternal state of a new heavens and earth in which dwells perfect righteousness (cf. Isa. 65:17f).”

From Here

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ June 22 2005,09:37)

““The beginning and the creation of God.” The word “beginning” is the Greek word arch meaning (a) first in time or (b) first in place, cause, or origin. The point is Jesus Christ is the origin, the cause, the Creator of all things (John 1:3; Col. 1:16-17; Rev. 1:8; 21:6). He is the Creator of this earth, now fallen under the curse of sin through rebellion to Him. But He is also the Creator of the coming kingdom and the eternal state of a new heavens and earth in which dwells perfect righteousness (cf. Isa. 65:17f).” From Here

Hi R,
Jesu is not the source of all things but the means through which the source, his Father, created all things. He is not the Father but was with the Father in the beginning.

[callsign]

Question, Where in the New Testament does it even state Jesus created all things, or even the old testament?

(a) first in time or (b) first in place, cause, or origin.

I also like how you pick the definition the best fits an arguement. Then twist it to make absolutley no sense in the sentance. Greek version use the word then replace the word.

Beginningof the creation

first in time of the creation
First in placeof the creation
Causeof the creation
Originof the creation

3 out of 4 of those are pretty clear of what it is saying.
Origin: The point at which something comes into existence or from which it derives or is derived.

s

[NickHassan]

It doesn't say that cs. It say everything was created through him. Only God is the creator.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2005,09:51)

Quote (Guest @ June 22 2005,09:37) ““The beginning and the creation of God.” The word “beginning” is the Greek word arch meaning (a) first in time or (b) first in place, cause, or origin. The point is Jesus Christ is the origin, the cause, the Creator of all things (John 1:3; Col. 1:16-17; Rev. 1:8; 21:6). He is the Creator of this earth, now fallen under the curse of sin through rebellion to Him. But He is also the Creator of the coming kingdom and the eternal state of a new heavens and earth in which dwells perfect righteousness (cf. Isa. 65:17f).” From Here Hi R, Jesu is not the source of all things but the means through which the source, his Father, created all things. He is not the Father but was with the Father in the beginning.

WOW Nick,

You quote no scripture, you only say a statement and we are to take your word?

Not on your life! We quote scripture and you make smug comments!

[callsign]

1 Corinthians 8
Take Care with Your Liberty
1Now concerning (A)things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have (B)knowledge Knowledge Âmakes arrogant, but love (D)edifies.
2(E)If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet (F)known as he ought to know;

3but if anyone loves God, he (G)is known by Him.

4Therefore concerning the eating of (H)things sacrificed to idols, we know that [a]there is (I)no such thing as an idol in the world, and that (J)there is no God but one.

5For even if (K)there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

6yet for us (L)there is but one God, (M)the Father, (N)from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and (O)one Lord, Jesus Christ, (P)by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

We Exist through Christ. Christ Creates nothing but through everything we exist I am trying to find another verse that is better. It is somewhere. I must get foryou.

Uno Momento,

S

[WhatIsTrue]

liljohn,

If the Trinity is scriptural, show us by accepting my challenge.  It should be easy.

FYI,

You really missed the mark and the point.  Read the challenge that I issued again.  I asked you to construct a definition of the Trinity using scripture alone.  The verses that you quoted do not define the Trinity doctrine.  They may hint at the doctrine, (although all but one of your verses included the Holy Spirit), but they certainly do not define it.  The NT teaches on many subjects: sin, salvation, the Law, baptism, the Kingdom of God, etc.  But it does not teach the Trinity – not once, not ever.  But again, you don't have to take my word for it.  Look for yourself.  If you did not have the Athanasian Creed, (or some other traditional creed), there would be no orthodox definition of the Trinity.  My challenge to you was to prove that it could be found in scripture.  It can not, and your attempt only shows how weak a foundation your doctrine is on.  Again, you can easily prove me wrong by showing us where scripture teaches us explicitly the Trinity doctrine.

As a reminder, here is your doctrine:

Quote

And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Show us where this is explicitly taught in scripture.

Also, note how this doctrine is considered necessary for salvation in this creed, (and probably by the vast majority of Trinitarians as well).  That elevates this creed to the same level as scripture.  That being the case, the doctrine that it upholds very well better be found in scripture.  If not, it is an arrogant presumption.

[WhatIsTrue]

kenosis,

Quote

Hi Nick Hassan. I have to assume that you have decided to decline my challenge. That is a shame because i thought you might see it as a good opportunity to “expose” the faultiness of the doctrine. Since you did not 'front up', any future attacks on the veracity of the trinity doctine by you will, to me, appear somewhat hollow.

Will you accept my challenge?

[Author]

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