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Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2013,03:20) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 29 2013,17:36) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2013,12:59) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 29 2013,06:34) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2013,10:17) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 27 2013,01:19) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2013,04:47) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 26 2013,10:35) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2013,14:47) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 25 2013,14:47) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2013,19:39) Wakeup, Sometimes being meek is to be submissive to God but I believe that is what poor in spirit means in the B-attitudes.
Meek in the B-attitudes probably means long enduring of trials and tribulation.
I should have quoted Matthew 5:3 instead.
Matthew 5:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
I chose to use the B-attitudes to encourage you to do what is right but if prefect negative reinforcement then here:
James 4:5-7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Kerwin.First you must understand what you read.
Quote 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Please explain.
wakeup.
Wakeup,I looked of the word meek in the dictionary and discovered it can mean “deficient in spirit and courage : submissive” or “enduring injury with patience and without resentment : mild”.
I intended the first meaning but that seems better covered by the words “poor in spirit” in the one b-attitude. The second meaning sounds appropriate for a b-attitude as well and is most likely what the one stating blessed are the meek is speaking of.
My point is you are not behaving in a manner of one who is poor in spirit. The truth is hard to deal with and can be unpleasant but to learn more of God's righteousness we need to address many unpleasant truths.
Kerwin.You are not clear what poor in spirit means.
wakeup.
Wakeup,Poor in spirit is another way of saying submissive. It is not talking about the Holy Spirit.
Kerwin.That is not correct.
The jews were submissive to their rabbi's.wakeup.
Wakeup,Who do you think it is that Jesus is telling us that being submissive to will result in a student entering the kingdom of God?
Kerwin.Being submissive but not doing the commandments.
Worshipping but not feeding on the flesh of Christ.Blessed are the poor in the spirit of Christ;that's what it means.
wakeup.
Wakeup,No, A student of Christ wants to be rich in the Spirit of Christ just like a thirsty man wands a drink of liquid.
The poor Kerwin;the poor.wakeup.
Wakeup,A man can be poor in wealth, which according to the Merriam-Webster's online dictionary means they “have a less than adequate amount” of wealth. A man poor in the Spirit of Christ would therefore have a less than adequate amount of the Spirit of Christ. I personally am terrified of having a less than adequate amount of the Spirit of Christ and would rater have “a large amount” of it. On the other hand I desire to have “a less that adequate amount” of the spirit of arrogance (haughtiness). In other words I desire to be humble (having “a less than adequate measure of haughtiness”) in spirit.
Proverbs 16:18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)18 Pride goeth before destruction,
and an haughty spirit before a fall.Proverbs 29:23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)23 A man’s pride shall bring him low:
but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.This fits God's desire for us and it fits the context but it has the possible weakness that it is also one of our English cultural definitions.
Kerwin.Yes; that's what that scripture means.
Blessed are the poor *IN THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST*You interpret that as submission.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 30 2013,07:07) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2013,03:20) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 29 2013,17:36) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2013,12:59) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 29 2013,06:34) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2013,10:17) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 27 2013,01:19) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2013,04:47) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 26 2013,10:35) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2013,14:47) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 25 2013,14:47) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2013,19:39) Wakeup, Sometimes being meek is to be submissive to God but I believe that is what poor in spirit means in the B-attitudes.
Meek in the B-attitudes probably means long enduring of trials and tribulation.
I should have quoted Matthew 5:3 instead.
Matthew 5:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
I chose to use the B-attitudes to encourage you to do what is right but if prefect negative reinforcement then here:
James 4:5-7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Kerwin.First you must understand what you read.
Quote 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Please explain.
wakeup.
Wakeup,I looked of the word meek in the dictionary and discovered it can mean “deficient in spirit and courage : submissive” or “enduring injury with patience and without resentment : mild”.
I intended the first meaning but that seems better covered by the words “poor in spirit” in the one b-attitude. The second meaning sounds appropriate for a b-attitude as well and is most likely what the one stating blessed are the meek is speaking of.
My point is you are not behaving in a manner of one who is poor in spirit. The truth is hard to deal with and can be unpleasant but to learn more of God's righteousness we need to address many unpleasant truths.
Kerwin.You are not clear what poor in spirit means.
wakeup.
Wakeup,Poor in spirit is another way of saying submissive. It is not talking about the Holy Spirit.
Kerwin.That is not correct.
The jews were submissive to their rabbi's.wakeup.
Wakeup,Who do you think it is that Jesus is telling us that being submissive to will result in a student entering the kingdom of God?
Kerwin.Being submissive but not doing the commandments.
Worshipping but not feeding on the flesh of Christ.Blessed are the poor in the spirit of Christ;that's what it means.
wakeup.
Wakeup,No, A student of Christ wants to be rich in the Spirit of Christ just like a thirsty man wands a drink of liquid.
The poor Kerwin;the poor.wakeup.
Wakeup,A man can be poor in wealth, which according to the Merriam-Webster's online dictionary means they “have a less than adequate amount” of wealth. A man poor in the Spirit of Christ would therefore have a less than adequate amount of the Spirit of Christ. I personally am terrified of having a less than adequate amount of the Spirit of Christ and would rater have “a large amount” of it. On the other hand I desire to have “a less that adequate amount” of the spirit of arrogance (haughtiness). In other words I desire to be humble (having “a less than adequate measure of haughtiness”) in spirit.
Proverbs 16:18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)18 Pride goeth before destruction,
and an haughty spirit before a fall.Proverbs 29:23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)23 A man’s pride shall bring him low:
but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.This fits God's desire for us and it fits the context but it has the possible weakness that it is also one of our English cultural definitions.
Kerwin.Yes; that's what that scripture means.
Blessed are the poor *IN THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST*You interpret that as submission.
wakeup.
Wakeup,So according to you a follower is to have a less than an adequate supply of the Spirit of Christ.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2013,13:47) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 30 2013,07:07) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2013,03:20) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 29 2013,17:36) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2013,12:59) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 29 2013,06:34) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2013,10:17) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 27 2013,01:19) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2013,04:47) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 26 2013,10:35) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2013,14:47) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 25 2013,14:47) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2013,19:39) Wakeup, Sometimes being meek is to be submissive to God but I believe that is what poor in spirit means in the B-attitudes.
Meek in the B-attitudes probably means long enduring of trials and tribulation.
I should have quoted Matthew 5:3 instead.
Matthew 5:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
I chose to use the B-attitudes to encourage you to do what is right but if prefect negative reinforcement then here:
James 4:5-7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Kerwin.First you must understand what you read.
Quote 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Please explain.
wakeup.
Wakeup,I looked of the word meek in the dictionary and discovered it can mean “deficient in spirit and courage : submissive” or “enduring injury with patience and without resentment : mild”.
I intended the first meaning but that seems better covered by the words “poor in spirit” in the one b-attitude. The second meaning sounds appropriate for a b-attitude as well and is most likely what the one stating blessed are the meek is speaking of.
My point is you are not behaving in a manner of one who is poor in spirit. The truth is hard to deal with and can be unpleasant but to learn more of God's righteousness we need to address many unpleasant truths.
Kerwin.You are not clear what poor in spirit means.
wakeup.
Wakeup,Poor in spirit is another way of saying submissive. It is not talking about the Holy Spirit.
Kerwin.That is not correct.
The jews were submissive to their rabbi's.wakeup.
Wakeup,Who do you think it is that Jesus is telling us that being submissive to will result in a student entering the kingdom of God?
Kerwin.Being submissive but not doing the commandments.
Worshipping but not feeding on the flesh of Christ.Blessed are the poor in the spirit of Christ;that's what it means.
wakeup.
Wakeup,No, A student of Christ wants to be rich in the Spirit of Christ just like a thirsty man wands a drink of liquid.
The poor Kerwin;the poor.wakeup.
Wakeup,A man can be poor in wealth, which according to the Merriam-Webster's online dictionary means they “have a less than adequate amount” of wealth. A man poor in the Spirit of Christ would therefore have a less than adequate amount of the Spirit of Christ. I personally am terrified of having a less than adequate amount of the Spirit of Christ and would rater have “a large amount” of it. On the other hand I desire to have “a less that adequate amount” of the spirit of arrogance (haughtiness). In other words I desire to be humble (having “a less than adequate measure of haughtiness”) in spirit.
Proverbs 16:18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)18 Pride goeth before destruction,
and an haughty spirit before a fall.Proverbs 29:23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)23 A man’s pride shall bring him low:
but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.This fits God's desire for us and it fits the context but it has the possible weakness that it is also one of our English cultural definitions.
Kerwin.Yes; that's what that scripture means.
Blessed are the poor *IN THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST*You interpret that as submission.
wakeup.
Wakeup,So according to you a follower is to have a less than an adequate supply of the Spirit of Christ.
Kerwin.And why should that be so?
Jesus statement was about the poor in the spirit of Christ.
Why should that mean that other followers have less of the spirit? That depends on how much of Christ's flesh one has eaten.wakeup.
Okay, moving on. At about 11 minutes into the first segment, the lady mentions an OT verse that supposedly says, “His mind is kept in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on me.”
I searched these words in the KJV, but couldn't find a match. Could anyone tell me which verse she's talking about?
And the last “problem translation” she mentiones in the first segment is Isaiah 14:12, and concerns “lucifer”. So let's discuss that one for now:
Isaiah 14:12 NET ©
Look how you have fallen from the sky, O shining one, son of the dawn! 1 You have been cut down to the ground, O conqueror of the nations!Note #1 says:
The Hebrew text has הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר (helel ben-shakhar, “Helel son of Shachar”), which is probably a name for the morning star (Venus) or the crescent moon.What is the background for the imagery in vv. 12-15? This whole section (vv. 4b-21) is directed to the king of Babylon, who is clearly depicted as a human ruler.
Other kings of the earth address him in vv. 9ff., he is called “the man” in v. 16, and, according to vv. 19-20, he possesses a physical body.
Nevertheless the language of vv. 12-15 has led some to see a dual referent in the taunt song. These verses, which appear to be spoken by other pagan kings to a pagan king (cf. vv. 9-11), contain several titles and motifs that resemble those of Canaanite mythology, including references to Helel son of Shachar, the stars of El, the mountain of assembly, the recesses of Zaphon, and the divine title Most High. Apparently these verses allude to a mythological story about a minor god (Helel son of Shachar) who tried to take over Zaphon, the mountain of the gods. His attempted coup failed and he was hurled down to the underworld.
The king of Babylon is taunted for having similar unrealized delusions of grandeur.
Some Christians have seen an allusion to the fall of Satan here, but this seems contextually unwarranted.
So there's the information, and here are my thoughts:
1. The passage is clearly about the King of Babylon (verse 4) – and seems to be about a man. I don't see a reference to Satan, so perhaps someone could point that out to me.
2. Even if it alludes to the fall of Satan, there is no problem with Satan being a “morning star” – which is what the lady on the video freaked out about. Because in Job, we understand the “morning stars” to be spirit beings, of which Satan is clearly one, right? And in Revelation, the spirit being Jesus calls himself “the bright morning star”, right?
3. I like the NET point that the king of Babylon is being taunted for having delusions of grandeur. That fits in with the fact that the word translated as “Lucifer” in the KJV (“heylel”) comes from the Hebrew word “halal”, which means “to shine”, but is figuratively used of one who is “boastful”. It is translated as “boast” in the following verse:
Jeremiah 9:23 NIV ©
This is what the LORD says: “Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches,That means the word (“shining one”) which is translated as “Lucifer” in the KJV could have the figurative use in 14:12, and be translated as “O boastful one”.
(See all this cool stuff you can learn from those lexicons, Wakeup?
)At any rate, I don't see what the lady in the video was going on about with this verse. It seems she has made up her own mind that the passage is about Satan, and that Satan's name is “Lucifer”. And it seems she is concerned about the translations that render it as “morning star”, because she didn't like that Jesus and Satan were both “morning stars”.
But they are both spirit sons of God, right? So I guess I don't see the problem she was seeing.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 30 2013,12:30) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2013,13:47) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 30 2013,07:07) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2013,03:20) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 29 2013,17:36) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2013,12:59) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 29 2013,06:34) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2013,10:17) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 27 2013,01:19) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2013,04:47) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 26 2013,10:35) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2013,14:47) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 25 2013,14:47) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2013,19:39) Wakeup, Sometimes being meek is to be submissive to God but I believe that is what poor in spirit means in the B-attitudes.
Meek in the B-attitudes probably means long enduring of trials and tribulation.
I should have quoted Matthew 5:3 instead.
Matthew 5:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
I chose to use the B-attitudes to encourage you to do what is right but if prefect negative reinforcement then here:
James 4:5-7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Kerwin.First you must understand what you read.
Quote 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Please explain.
wakeup.
Wakeup,I looked of the word meek in the dictionary and discovered it can mean “deficient in spirit and courage : submissive” or “enduring injury with patience and without resentment : mild”.
I intended the first meaning but that seems better covered by the words “poor in spirit” in the one b-attitude. The second meaning sounds appropriate for a b-attitude as well and is most likely what the one stating blessed are the meek is speaking of.
My point is you are not behaving in a manner of one who is poor in spirit. The truth is hard to deal with and can be unpleasant but to learn more of God's righteousness we need to address many unpleasant truths.
Kerwin.You are not clear what poor in spirit means.
wakeup.
Wakeup,Poor in spirit is another way of saying submissive. It is not talking about the Holy Spirit.
Kerwin.That is not correct.
The jews were submissive to their rabbi's.wakeup.
Wakeup,Who do you think it is that Jesus is telling us that being submissive to will result in a student entering the kingdom of God?
Kerwin.Being submissive but not doing the commandments.
Worshipping but not feeding on the flesh of Christ.Blessed are the poor in the spirit of Christ;that's what it means.
wakeup.
Wakeup,No, A student of Christ wants to be rich in the Spirit of Christ just like a thirsty man wands a drink of liquid.
The poor Kerwin;the poor.wakeup.
Wakeup,A man can be poor in wealth, which according to the Merriam-Webster's online dictionary means they “have a less than adequate amount” of wealth. A man poor in the Spirit of Christ would therefore have a less than adequate amount of the Spirit of Christ. I personally am terrified of having a less than adequate amount of the Spirit of Christ and would rater have “a large amount” of it. On the other hand I desire to have “a less that adequate amount” of the spirit of arrogance (haughtiness). In other words I desire to be humble (having “a less than adequate measure of haughtiness”) in spirit.
Proverbs 16:18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)18 Pride goeth before destruction,
and an haughty spirit before a fall.Proverbs 29:23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)23 A man’s pride shall bring him low:
but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.This fits God's desire for us and it fits the context but it has the possible weakness that it is also one of our English cultural definitions.
Kerwin.Yes; that's what that scripture means.
Blessed are the poor *IN THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST*You interpret that as submission.
wakeup.
Wakeup,So according to you a follower is to have a less than an adequate supply of the Spirit of Christ.
Kerwin.And why should that be so?
Jesus statement was about the poor in the spirit of Christ.
Why should that mean that other followers have less of the spirit? That depends on how much of Christ's flesh one has eaten.wakeup.
Wakeup,The word poor means “less than adequate”.
For example a person poor in wealth has a “less than adequate” amount of wealth.
Mike,
Try this one which google search indicated was a near match.
Isaiah 26:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee:
because he trusteth in thee.Mike,
Quote Nevertheless the language of vv. 12-15 has led some to see a dual referent in the taunt song. These verses, which appear to be spoken by other pagan kings to a pagan king (cf. vv. 9-11), contain several titles and motifs that resemble those of Canaanite mythology, including references to Helel son of Shachar, the stars of El, the mountain of assembly, the recesses of Zaphon, and the divine title Most High. Apparently these verses allude to a mythological story about a minor god (Helel son of Shachar) who tried to take over Zaphon, the mountain of the gods. His attempted coup failed and he was hurled down to the underworld. You do realize Helel son of Shachar is a name of Lucifer? I am not sure of Lucifer is the Devil or just a devil. I do know this is in reference to a pre-coming into the Promise Land story. There is one that is less ancient that depicts Attar attempting to take Baal's throne that is not used. I believe the more ancient one is closes to the Hebrew story that was Isaiah was using as a type as El is another name for God and the “his mountain” is heaven.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2013,05:05) Okay, moving on. At about 11 minutes into the first segment, the lady mentions an OT verse that supposedly says, “His mind is kept in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on me.” I searched these words in the KJV, but couldn't find a match. Could anyone tell me which verse she's talking about?
And the last “problem translation” she mentiones in the first segment is Isaiah 14:12, and concerns “lucifer”. So let's discuss that one for now:
Isaiah 14:12 NET ©
Look how you have fallen from the sky, O shining one, son of the dawn! 1 You have been cut down to the ground, O conqueror of the nations!Note #1 says:
The Hebrew text has הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר (helel ben-shakhar, “Helel son of Shachar”), which is probably a name for the morning star (Venus) or the crescent moon.What is the background for the imagery in vv. 12-15? This whole section (vv. 4b-21) is directed to the king of Babylon, who is clearly depicted as a human ruler.
Other kings of the earth address him in vv. 9ff., he is called “the man” in v. 16, and, according to vv. 19-20, he possesses a physical body.
Nevertheless the language of vv. 12-15 has led some to see a dual referent in the taunt song. These verses, which appear to be spoken by other pagan kings to a pagan king (cf. vv. 9-11), contain several titles and motifs that resemble those of Canaanite mythology, including references to Helel son of Shachar, the stars of El, the mountain of assembly, the recesses of Zaphon, and the divine title Most High. Apparently these verses allude to a mythological story about a minor god (Helel son of Shachar) who tried to take over Zaphon, the mountain of the gods. His attempted coup failed and he was hurled down to the underworld.
The king of Babylon is taunted for having similar unrealized delusions of grandeur.
Some Christians have seen an allusion to the fall of Satan here, but this seems contextually unwarranted.
So there's the information, and here are my thoughts:
1. The passage is clearly about the King of Babylon (verse 4) – and seems to be about a man. I don't see a reference to Satan, so perhaps someone could point that out to me.
2. Even if it alludes to the fall of Satan, there is no problem with Satan being a “morning star” – which is what the lady on the video freaked out about. Because in Job, we understand the “morning stars” to be spirit beings, of which Satan is clearly one, right? And in Revelation, the spirit being Jesus calls himself “the bright morning star”, right?
3. I like the NET point that the king of Babylon is being taunted for having delusions of grandeur. That fits in with the fact that the word translated as “Lucifer” in the KJV (“heylel”) comes from the Hebrew word “halal”, which means “to shine”, but is figuratively used of one who is “boastful”. It is translated as “boast” in the following verse:
Jeremiah 9:23 NIV ©
This is what the LORD says: “Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches,That means the word (“shining one”) which is translated as “Lucifer” in the KJV could have the figurative use in 14:12, and be translated as “O boastful one”.
(See all this cool stuff you can learn from those lexicons, Wakeup?
)At any rate, I don't see what the lady in the video was going on about with this verse. It seems she has made up her own mind that the passage is about Satan, and that Satan's name is “Lucifer”. And it seems she is concerned about the translations that render it as “morning star”, because she didn't like that Jesus and Satan were both “morning stars”.
But they are both spirit sons of God, right? So I guess I don't see the problem she was seeing.
Mike B.Lucifer was never called the morning star,but son of the morning.
Jesus called Himself the morning star.(rev.22).Regarding the king of babylon,depends on the context.
Satan is the king of babylon the great.
The king of tyre. The assyrian. The dragon.the red dragon.
leviathan the serpent.wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2013,05:05) Okay, moving on. At about 11 minutes into the first segment, the lady mentions an OT verse that supposedly says, “His mind is kept in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on me.” I searched these words in the KJV, but couldn't find a match. Could anyone tell me which verse she's talking about?
And the last “problem translation” she mentiones in the first segment is Isaiah 14:12, and concerns “lucifer”. So let's discuss that one for now:
Isaiah 14:12 NET ©
Look how you have fallen from the sky, O shining one, son of the dawn! 1 You have been cut down to the ground, O conqueror of the nations!Note #1 says:
The Hebrew text has הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר (helel ben-shakhar, “Helel son of Shachar”), which is probably a name for the morning star (Venus) or the crescent moon.What is the background for the imagery in vv. 12-15? This whole section (vv. 4b-21) is directed to the king of Babylon, who is clearly depicted as a human ruler.
Other kings of the earth address him in vv. 9ff., he is called “the man” in v. 16, and, according to vv. 19-20, he possesses a physical body.
Nevertheless the language of vv. 12-15 has led some to see a dual referent in the taunt song. These verses, which appear to be spoken by other pagan kings to a pagan king (cf. vv. 9-11), contain several titles and motifs that resemble those of Canaanite mythology, including references to Helel son of Shachar, the stars of El, the mountain of assembly, the recesses of Zaphon, and the divine title Most High. Apparently these verses allude to a mythological story about a minor god (Helel son of Shachar) who tried to take over Zaphon, the mountain of the gods. His attempted coup failed and he was hurled down to the underworld.
The king of Babylon is taunted for having similar unrealized delusions of grandeur.
Some Christians have seen an allusion to the fall of Satan here, but this seems contextually unwarranted.
So there's the information, and here are my thoughts:
1. The passage is clearly about the King of Babylon (verse 4) – and seems to be about a man. I don't see a reference to Satan, so perhaps someone could point that out to me.
2. Even if it alludes to the fall of Satan, there is no problem with Satan being a “morning star” – which is what the lady on the video freaked out about. Because in Job, we understand the “morning stars” to be spirit beings, of which Satan is clearly one, right? And in Revelation, the spirit being Jesus calls himself “the bright morning star”, right?
3. I like the NET point that the king of Babylon is being taunted for having delusions of grandeur. That fits in with the fact that the word translated as “Lucifer” in the KJV (“heylel”) comes from the Hebrew word “halal”, which means “to shine”, but is figuratively used of one who is “boastful”. It is translated as “boast” in the following verse:
Jeremiah 9:23 NIV ©
This is what the LORD says: “Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches,That means the word (“shining one”) which is translated as “Lucifer” in the KJV could have the figurative use in 14:12, and be translated as “O boastful one”.
(See all this cool stuff you can learn from those lexicons, Wakeup?
)At any rate, I don't see what the lady in the video was going on about with this verse. It seems she has made up her own mind that the passage is about Satan, and that Satan's name is “Lucifer”. And it seems she is concerned about the translations that render it as “morning star”, because she didn't like that Jesus and Satan were both “morning stars”.
But they are both spirit sons of God, right? So I guess I don't see the problem she was seeing.
Mike B.Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 30 2013,13:07) Lucifer was never called the morning star, but son of the morning.
Jesus called Himself the morning star.(rev.22).
Many English translations render the Hebrew words as “morning star”, Wakeup. It is literally “shining one, son of the dawn”.In Job 38:7, I see no reason to assume that Satan wasn't among the other “morning stars” who sang when God laid the foundations of the earth.
Also, Jesus calls himself the BRIGHT morning star – which doesn't exclude other sons of God from also being morning stars, right? In fact, it points out for me that among all the morning stars, Jesus, the firstborn of God, is the BRIGHTEST one.
At any rate, I see no contradiction or problem with a translation of “morning star” in Isaiah 14:12. The lady in the video sees a problem because she falsely believes Jesus is the ONLY morning star – a claim that is never made in any scripture, and is actually contradicted by Job 38:7.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 30 2013,13:19) Mike B. Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
wakeup.
The KJV says:Thou wilt keep [him] in perfect peace [whose] mind [is] stayed [on thee]: because he trusteth
in thee.All those bracketed words are additions to the Hebrew text, which is why the KJV producers bracketed them in the first place.
So the words “on thee” that the lady in the video was upset about aren't REALLY even in the KJV either.
So far, the lady has harped about words that aren't even in the KJV, about the words “heal the broken hearted” which aren't in any of the older Greek mss, and about a translation of morning star in a verse she perceives as being about someone she perceives to be named lucifer – because she apparently wants Jesus to be the ONLY morning star in the scriptures.
In other words, so far this lady has struck herself out. Any comments? Or shall I move on to video #2?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2013,09:57) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 30 2013,13:19) Mike B. Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
wakeup.
The KJV says:Thou wilt keep [him] in perfect peace [whose] mind [is] stayed [on thee]: because he trusteth
in thee.All those bracketed words are additions to the Hebrew text, which is why the KJV producers bracketed them in the first place.
So the words “on thee” that the lady in the video was upset about aren't REALLY even in the KJV either.
So far, the lady has harped about words that aren't even in the KJV, about the words “heal the broken hearted” which aren't in any of the older Greek mss, and about a translation of morning star in a verse she perceives as being about someone she perceives to be named lucifer – because she apparently wants Jesus to be the ONLY morning star in the scriptures.
In other words, so far this lady has struck herself out. Any comments? Or shall I move on to video #2?
Mikeb.Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the
***bright and morning star***. (symbolic).No angel can compare in brightness.
The morning star shines brightest in the morning.
not only that: He was also brought forth first in the morning,
so to speak.wakeup.
Yes Wakeup.
But does being the BRIGHT morning star prohibit the existence of other morning stars? Or does the adjective “bright” actually support the fact that there are others, and Jesus is the BRIGHT one?
It doesn't matter, because other morning stars are listed in Job 38, and they sang together when God laid the foundations of the earth.
So the lady in the video doesn't seem to know about the morning stars in Job 38. And her ignorance of scripture can't legitimately be used to promote the KJV, or to slam other translations……… right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2013,09:36) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 30 2013,13:07) Lucifer was never called the morning star, but son of the morning.
Jesus called Himself the morning star.(rev.22).
Many English translations render the Hebrew words as “morning star”, Wakeup. It is literally “shining one, son of the dawn”.In Job 38:7, I see no reason to assume that Satan wasn't among the other “morning stars” who sang when God laid the foundations of the earth.
Also, Jesus calls himself the BRIGHT morning star – which doesn't exclude other sons of God from also being morning stars, right? In fact, it points out for me that among all the morning stars, Jesus, the firstborn of God, is the BRIGHTEST one.
At any rate, I see no contradiction or problem with a translation of “morning star” in Isaiah 14:12. The lady in the video sees a problem because she falsely believes Jesus is the ONLY morning star – a claim that is never made in any scripture, and is actually contradicted by Job 38:7.
Mikeb.I agree with you that the angels were called
the morning stars.Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Did satan and his angels in heaven also shouting for joy?
This we can only speculate. I think yes;only because
he thinks that now is his chance to operate.But Lucifer was called the *Son* of the morning.
This is to tell us something.No need to change this.
Jesus is the bright morning star.wakeup.
Like I said, it is literally translated as “O shining one, son of the dawn”.
Many understand those words to refer to a morning star (shining, dawn), and translate it as such.
Many others see the proper name “Lucifer” in that statement – and attribute that name to Satan.
Many of us take many liberties with the words of scriptures. Sometimes we have no choice but to give it our “best guess”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2013,06:17) Like I said, it is literally translated as “O shining one, son of the dawn”. Many understand those words to refer to a morning star (shining, dawn), and translate it as such.
Many others see the proper name “Lucifer” in that statement – and attribute that name to Satan.
Many of us take many liberties with the words of scriptures. Sometimes we have no choice but to give it our “best guess”.
Mikeb.You should know by now that we can not compare
the creator to his creatures.
All his angels are created as light;stars.
But HE the creator is the brightest.
God is the light.
Lucifer's light has gone dim.
For he and his angels has fallen.wakeup.
Wakeup,
The things you say sound an awful lot like you believe Jesus is God Almighty.
Is that what you think?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2013,10:29) Wakeup, The things you say sound an awful lot like you believe Jesus is God Almighty.
Is that what you think?
Mike b.Jesus is the Word of God
made flesh.
The Word of God is God's own Word.
Still can not see?wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 15 2013,05:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2013,10:29) Wakeup, The things you say sound an awful lot like you believe Jesus is God Almighty.
Is that what you think?
Mike b.Jesus is the Word of God
made flesh.
The Word of God is God's own Word.
Still can not see?wakeup.
wQuote The Word of God is God's own Word. I never see words walking ,never mind dressed in flesh
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