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Mike,
Quote “Obtain” is NOT a synonym of “manifest”, or “appeared”. So your attempt falls flat on its face. You seem to have missed that I have not claimed it is a synonym. I instead claimed I paraphrased the sentence.
You understand that that the word “appear” can mean that a person bodily appears. I assume you also understand believers will appear in a body like Jesus'. That means you have the values of the equation but you fail to see the equation.
At the time John wrote both him and those that he wrote to were still living in their mortal body and a time existed in the future when they would appear in their new body that was like Jesus currently was and still is. That time is when Jesus would bodily come again and it is in this hope they would be purify themselves as he is pure.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2014,10:54) The only water I can think of in Scripture that you could be writing of is the water Jesus spoke of to the Samaritan woman…………….
What about the life-giving water in the river that flows from the throne of God and the throne of the Lamb?Jesus said one drink of it will grant everlasting life, right?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2014,18:24) Mike, Quote “Obtain” is NOT a synonym of “manifest”, or “appeared”. So your attempt falls flat on its face. You seem to have missed that I have not claimed it is a synonym. I instead claimed I paraphrased the sentence.
And YOU seem to have missed that a “paraphrase” is supposed to be saying the same thing, but in different words.If “obtain” is no where near the definition of any word in that Greek statement, then a true “paraphrase” cannot use the word “obtain”.
You can't take a scripture that says “He is coming”, and “paraphrase” it to say, “He is dancing a jig”.
The paraphrase must MATCH the meaning of the original.
Perhaps that is why I “fail to see the equation”.
Try an equation that matches the original statement. Try one using “appeared”, or “known”, or “revealed”. Oh, and leave the word “body” out of it, since that word is not in the original.
I'll wait for your new paraphrase – and then maybe I'll be able to see where you're going with it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2014,06:12) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2014,10:54) The only water I can think of in Scripture that you could be writing of is the water Jesus spoke of to the Samaritan woman…………….
What about the life-giving water in the river that flows from the throne of God and the throne of the Lamb?Jesus said one drink of it will grant everlasting life, right?
Mike,That is from Revelations which is a book full of symbolism. It could be speaking of God's word or the Spirit as well. Of the two I favor God's word as we are told that in it there is light and that light is the life of men. It could also be literal.
Mike,
Quote
If “obtain” is no where near the definition of any word in that Greek statement, then a true “paraphrase” cannot use the word “obtain”.I have already pointed out that appear can mean to bodily appear. Obtaining a new body is one way to appear in a new body. It may be the only way though the means of obtaining the new body are different.
Is this better?
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what our body shall be: but we know that, when his body shall appear, our body shall be like his; for we shall see it as it is.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,11:12) Of the two I favor God's word as we are told that in it there is light and that light is the life of men.
Interesting, because there is so much light in Jesus that he is metaphorically called “the Light of the World”.And the light he gave was also the life of men.
What a strange coincidence, huh?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,11:30) I have already pointed out that appear can mean to bodily appear.
And I have already pointed out that “appear” can also have a meaning of “made clear”, or “made known”.I also pointed out that, although “appear” can indeed refer to the physical appearance of something or someone, that meaning doesn't fit the context of 1 John 3:2.
Quote Obtaining a new body is one way to appear in a new body.
People don't “physically appear” right in front of themselves, Kerwin.I was walking along the other day, and I appeared right before my very eyes!
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,11:30) Is this better? Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what our body shall be: but we know that, when his body shall appear, our body shall be like his; for we shall see it as it is.
Well, we need to lose the word “body” altogether, since John doesn't mention that word in the original.And that would leave the first part like the KJV has it:
….and it doth not yet appear what we shall be…..
Now, take the word “appear” in this sense: It appears to me that 1 John 3:2 has Kerwin stumped.
In my statement, the phrase “It appears to me” means “It has become evident“, or “It has become clear to me”, or “It has become known to me”.
Agreed?
Now, what's the OPPOSITE of those things?
1. It has NOT yet appeared to me……..
2. It has NOT yet become evident……….
3. It has NOT yet become clear to me………
4. It has NOT yet become known to me……….
Now, compare my #1 above with the KJV's translation of 1 John 3:2. Almost identical, right?
Then compare that correct understanding of the KJV's word “appear” with all the other English versions, like the NIV:
….and what we will be has not yet been made known…..
See? Since the correct meaning of “appear” in the KJV's translation is “made known”, the KJV and the NIV are really saying the exact same thing, but in different words.
Same with the versions that say “what we will be has not yet been manifested” (or “made manifest”).
And same with the versions that say, “what we will be has not yet been revealed”.
They are all really saying the same thing, Kerwin.
Agreed?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2014,05:19) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,11:12) Of the two I favor God's word as we are told that in it there is light and that light is the life of men.
Interesting, because there is so much light in Jesus that he is metaphorically called “the Light of the World”.And the light he gave was also the life of men.
What a strange coincidence, huh?
Mike,Isn't this from our other thread?
Mike,
You are making understanding 1 John 3:2 more difficult than it is. As far as I know no expert sees it as you do.
Here is what Gill says about this topic:
Quote though they are sons, they do not appear now as such, as they will do, when they shall be introduced into their Father's house.. Warren Wiersbe says about the topic:
Quote This means, of course, that they will have new, glorified bodies, suited to heaven. Pulpit says about this topic:
Quote The context must prevail. “Our future state is not yet made manifest. We know that on its manifestation we shall find ourselves like God.” These three see the same thing I do but you fail to do so. Why?
I agree with each of those commentaries, Kerwin.
Gill goes on to say that at that time, we will be able to see Jesus………..
….through those beams of light and glory darting from him, with which the saints will be irradiated; and this sight, as it is now exceeding desirable, will be unspeakably glorious, delightful, and ravishing, soul satisfying………
…….[we] will assimilate and transform into his image and likeness, and be for ever.
…..then the saints in heaven will see God and Christ as they are, and as much as they are to be seen by creatures………
That is NOT how John and the others saw Jesus for those 40 days after the resurrection.
And Pulpit goes on to say……..
It does not mean that the seeing God is a proof or sign of our being like him (Matthew 5:8), but the cause of our being like him: “We shall be like him, because we shall see him.”
God is light (1 John 1:5), and light is seen. In this life νῦν we cannot see the light of the Divine nature “as it is,” but only as it is reflected……….
Hereafter the sight, “face to face” (1 Corinthians 13:12), of the Light itself will illuminate us through end through, and we shall become like it.
Again, this agrees with me that John and the others DIDN'T see Jesus “as he is” after the resurrection.
I would really like a direct response to my last post, starting with your quote that begins: “Is this better?”
Btw, it is YOU who is making 3:2 harder than it needs to be, Kerwin.
The SIMPLE and CLEAR teaching is:
We know we will be like Jesus, but since we don't know what he is right now, we aren't able to say what we will be.
Or, to use your addition of “body”……….
We know that our bodies will be like Jesus' body, but since we don't yet know what kind of body Jesus has, we don't yet know what kind of body we will have.
It is such an EASY teaching……… why are you unable to grasp it?
Mike,
They are not saying anything like what you are. If you are trying to communicate the same ideas you are failing. What I am hearing from them is that John nor the people is addresses his letter to have not yet appeared in their resurrected body. When Jesus appears to them in his resurrected body then they will appear in theirs.
As you say, Gill says:
Quote through those beams of light and glory darting from him, with which the saints will be irradiated; and this sight, as it is now exceeding desirable, will be unspeakably glorious, delightful, and ravishing, soul satisfying I have no idea where he is coming from in Scripture nor do I see where it is relevant even if it is true. Perhaps he is claims that Jesus will be transfigured when he returns or that he is God himself and therefore wrapped in light.
Kerwin,
During the transfiguration, three disciples were given a glimpse of what Jesus is now like. They weren't able to see all of his current glory, but were allowed to see a foreshadowing of his current glorious body.
John 17:24
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.Jesus' hope was for his beloved Apostles to be with him in heaven, so that they could see him “as he is”, and truly see all of the glory he has had with God from before the world began. (John 17:5)
And in 1 John 3:2, John was saying, We know that our bodies will be like Jesus' body, but since we don't yet know exactly what kind of body Jesus has, we don't yet know what kind of body we will have.
Your understanding is that they had already seen Jesus in his glorious new flesh and bone (but no blood) body on earth. So I ask you: What was the purpose of the transfiguration? If the best Jesus was ever going to be was a regular looking flesh and bone human being, then WHY did God show them a Jesus, Moses, and Elijah all glowing brighter than the sun?
Why would they appear to the three disciples in such a brilliant and glorious display, if all they are now is flesh and bone humans who look exactly like we do?
Think, Kerwin.
Mike,
Quote During the transfiguration, three disciples were given a glimpse of what Jesus is now like. They weren't able to see all of his current glory, but were allowed to see a foreshadowing of his current glorious body. I am not sure where you get the idea from Scripture that Jesus' Transfiguring was a foreshadowing of the radiance that he would have. During that event Jesus was still in his mortal body.
Mike,
Quote Jesus' hope was for his beloved Apostles to be with him in heaven, so that they could see him “as he is”, and truly see all of the glory he has had with God from before the world began. (John 17:5) I don not see John 17:5 or 17:24 are talking about radiance either. Glory on its own is a rather vague term as it has multiple meanings.
There are several verses in John 17 where glory or one of its derivitives have the direct context to render the meaning of the particular form of glory clearer.
John 17:4
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
He did not radiate God though he did bring honor to God with both his actions his words.
John 17:10
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.
He does not receive radiance in those that are his though he receive honor by their actions and words just as God does from his.
John 17:22
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)22 And the glory that thou gavest me, I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one,
It definitively not radiance God gave to Jesus and Jesus gave to his own and I do not think it is honor. In this case I think it is the power to obtain praise for God.
The Geneva Bible has commentary but it has the error of using the same word to explain the meaning of the word. It seems to be a common error among those experts who comment on Scripture. They may have a good reason but it created the situation where perhaps they should have chosen to remain silent instead of uttering many words that clarify nothing.
Note: I mistyped the address of the verse you quoted it is 17:24 not 17:4 as I previously had typed.
Mike,
Quote
Your understanding is that they had already seen Jesus in his glorious new flesh and bone (but no blood) body on earth.That is not my opinion as I see “flesh and blood” as a figure of speech that means mortal body even to this day. I believe the flesh body that arises is not the flesh body that was buried. I believe that Jesus' resurrected body was an example of the body that will arise.
Mike,
Matthew 17:2
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)2 And was [a]transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the Sun, and his clothes were as white as the light.
Mark 9:2-3
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)2 [a]And six days after, Jesus taketh unto him Peter, and James, and John, and carrieth them up into an high mountain out of the way alone, and his shape was changed before them.
3 And his raiment did shine, and was very white as snow, so white as no fuller can make upon the earth.Footnotes:
a Mark 9:2 The heavenly glory of Christ, which should within a short space be abased upon the cross, is avouched by visible signs, by the presence and talk of Elijah and Moses, and by the voice of the Father himself, before three of his disciples, which are witnesses against whom lieth no exception.
b Mark 9:3 Did sparkle as it were.Luke 9:29
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was changed, and his garment was white and glistered.
2 Peter 1:16-18
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)16 [a]For we followed not deceivable fables, when we opened unto you the power, and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but with our eyes we saw his majesty:
17 For he received of God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from that excellent Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice we heard when it came from heaven being with him in the holy mount.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,10:11) I am not sure where you get the idea from Scripture that Jesus' Transfiguring was a foreshadowing of the radiance that he would have. During that event Jesus was still in his mortal body.
Were Moses and Elijah also there in their mortal bodies? (Luke 9:30-31)Didn't Jesus appear to the disciples as glorious as Moses and Elijah appeared to be?
Kerwin, I want you to stop dodging the point here. I want you to explain WHY God would have shown Jesus to the disciples, glowing as bright as lightning and the sun, if the best he was ever going to be was a regular-looking human being like the rest of us.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,10:40) I don not see John 17:5 or 17:4 are talking about radiance either. Glory on its own is a rather vague term as it has multiple meanings.
The point is that Jesus wanted them to be IN HEAVEN with him…………..SO……… they would be able to see him in his REAL glory.Why would they need to be with him in heaven to see his REAL glory, Kerwin? Perhaps because they weren't able to see his REAL glory while they were all on earth?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 22 2014,23:19) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,10:11) I am not sure where you get the idea from Scripture that Jesus' Transfiguring was a foreshadowing of the radiance that he would have. During that event Jesus was still in his mortal body.
Were Moses and Elijah also there in their mortal bodies? (Luke 9:30-31)Didn't Jesus appear to the disciples as glorious as Moses and Elijah appeared to be?
Kerwin, I want you to stop dodging the point here. I want you to explain WHY God would have shown Jesus to the disciples, glowing as bright as lightning and the sun, if the best he was ever going to be was a regular-looking human being like the rest of us.
Mike,I presenting the evidence and at times commenting on it at this point. The disciples opinion is that Jesus, Moses, and Elijah had bodies that required to be sheltered from the elements as they offered to build them shelter.
Peter seemed to put more stock into the words God spoke than into the events that proceeded it.
Mike,
John 17:24
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.What does Jesus mean when he uses the word glory. We can read into it and define glory as would fit our idea but that is not wise. Is it the radiance God gave Jesus before the creation of the world. I do not see that as nowhere in the chapter is there anything that can supports the idea. Frankly displaying ones radiance is trivial as would be showing off a new car. I would say it is something that brings praises to Jesus and to God just as the multitude stands around the throne singing their praises.
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