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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2014,03:54) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 11 2014,08:50) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) In that verse, John made it clear that he didn't yet know what he would be, but only that he would be like Jesus. That is not what it says. Instead it says ” we will be has not yet been made known” or “and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be” or “and it has not appeared as yet what we will be”.
Okay?Don't all of those wordings mean, “We don't yet know what we will be, because it has not yet been shown (“made manifest”) to us what we will be.” ?
Mike,It is used the same way in the phrases “You know that He appeared in order to take away sins” and “The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil”, 1 John 3:5 and 3:8 respectively. Please check my work to verify I am correct.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2014,09:08) I can say The apostles saw Jesus immortal flesh body but they did not know everything about it. When Jesus comes again and they are like him they will know more.
……….because they will then SEE HIM AS HE IS.That is WHY they will know more, because AT THAT TIME, they will, for the first time, be able to SEE HIM AS HE IS.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2014,09:28) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2014,03:54) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 11 2014,08:50) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) In that verse, John made it clear that he didn't yet know what he would be, but only that he would be like Jesus. That is not what it says. Instead it says ” we will be has not yet been made known” or “and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be” or “and it has not appeared as yet what we will be”.
Okay?Don't all of those wordings mean, “We don't yet know what we will be, because it has not yet been shown (“made manifest”) to us what we will be.” ?
Mike,It is used the same way in the phrases “You know that He appeared in order to take away sins” and “The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil”, 1 John 3:5 and 3:8 respectively. Please check my work to verify I am correct.
It is the same Greek word in those verses, but I'm not seeing an actual point.Here are the definitions of the Greek word:
1. to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
A. make actual and visible, realised
B. to make known by teaching
C. to become manifest, be made known
D. of a person
1. expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
E. to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
The point is that John said that he and the others don't yet KNOW what they will be when Jesus comes. He only knew that he would be LIKE Jesus at that time, and be able to see Jesus “AS HE IS” at that time.
Kerwin, it's easy to see that this verse has you in trouble, and you're trying ANYTHING to add confusion or doubt to it.
But this verse is in ADDITION to the transfiguration. It is in ADDITION to the fact that Paul said we would trade in natural bodies for spiritual ones. It is in ADDITION to the fact that Paul plainly stated that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and in ADDITION to the fact that Jesus said flesh cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. It is in ADDITION to the fact that the very presence of Jesus, “as he is”, was enough to render Paul blind.
Try taking this verse IN ADDITION to all those other teachings.
Mike,
It has a bodily aspect and so I believe D is the definition that fits as both John and those he wrote to had not yet been shown in their body as to what it would be.
Quote You know that He appeared in order to take away sins Jesus appeared in his body.
Quote The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil He appeared in his body.
But John and the others saw Jesus in his body before he took away our sins. They saw him in his body before he destroyed the works of the devil.
And they saw and touched him in his resurrected body – after he took away our sins and conquered death.
So if they knew that they would be like Jesus when he returns, and they thought he would return exactly the same as the day he ascended into heaven, there would have been no reason for them to say they don't yet know what they will be. There would be no reason to make a point of saying they will “see him as he is” when he returns, because they would have already “seen him as he is” before he even left.
Instead, the teaching is:
1. We DON'T yet know what we will be.
2. We DO know that we will be able to see Jesus as he is, and whatever that is, we will also be like him at that time.
Mike,
You are not understanding.
Quote ” we will be has not yet been made known” A paraphrase is 'we have not yet obtained the body we will have'.
John was not saying he did not have knowledge about the resurrected body, though I am sure there are things he did not know about it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2014,08:21) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2014,09:08) I can say The apostles saw Jesus immortal flesh body but they did not know everything about it. When Jesus comes again and they are like him they will know more.
……….because they will then SEE HIM AS HE IS.That is WHY they will know more, because AT THAT TIME, they will, for the first time, be able to SEE HIM AS HE IS.
Mike,You claim Paul knows the body will be composed of spirit and technically Paul claims to have seen Jesus on the road to Damascus, 1 Corinthian 15:8. Paul obviously did not keep the knowledge to himself.
Yes Kerwin,
Paul knew that the resurrection bodies of those who were to dwell in heaven would be comprised of spirit, and not flesh.
That's why he says, “We have borne the image of the earthly, and we shall bear the image of the heavenly.”
The earthly consist of flesh, blood, and bone. The heavenly do not.
But as far as seeing Jesus, that is not said in scripture. Paul was blinded by a bright light when Jesus spoke to him from heaven. His flesh human eyes weren't able to see the actual image of Jesus.
Mike,
Paul stated Jesus appeared to him also.
1 Corinthians 15:8
New American Standard Bible (NASB)8 and last of all, as [a]to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
Mike,
Quote The earthly consist of flesh, blood, and bone. The heavenly do not. These are your word but Scripture does not say them.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2014,10:21) Mike, You are not understanding.
Quote ” we will be has not yet been made known” A paraphrase is 'we have not yet obtained the body we will have'.
John was not saying he did not have knowledge about the resurrected body, though I am sure there are things he did not know about it.
You are right…….. I wasn't understanding YOUR understanding of “appeared” in those other two verses.Let's test it out:
…..it doth not yet
appearOBTAIN what we shall be….Does that make sense to you? Of course not, so “obtain” is not a viable option. (It wasn't anyway because it is not even a synonym or definition of that Greek word.)
And using your understanding of the word “appear” in that KJV translation, John was saying, ….what we are going to be hasn't yet shown up (or “gotten here”).
It makes it sound like the John who was saying those words expected to disappear from existence, and the new thing he was going to be would just “appear” from heaven, or whatever.
For example, if you understand the words “Jesus appeared for this purpose” to mean, “Jesus came onto the scene for this purpose”, then John was saying that what they will be has not yet “come onto the scene”.
As if there is another, better version of themselves, that will eventually come onto the scene, and overtake their old selves, or something.
Kerwin, are you forgetting that one of the definitions of that Greek word is “made known/revealed/made plain”, etc?
Wouldn't that be a better fit for the context? For example:
New International Version
…….what we will be has not yet been made known……New Living Translation
…….he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears…….Holman Christian Standard Bible
………what we will be has not yet been revealed……..International Standard Version
……what we will be like has not been revealed yet…….NET Bible
……what we will be has not yet been revealed…….Aramaic Bible in Plain English
…..it has not been revealed until now what we are going to be……….Weymouth New Testament
……what we are to be in the future has not yet been fully revealed……World English Bible
…….it is not yet revealed what we will be………And there are a bunch of Bibles that say, “hasn't yet been manifested“. But the first definition of “manifest” is:
readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident; obvious; apparent; plain
So we can (and logically should) understand those translations as, “hasn't yet been made apparent, or plain to us”.
As for the Bibles that have “appeared”, this is the 3rd definition of “appear” from Dictionary.com:
3. to be obvious or easily perceived; be clear or made clear by evidence: It appears to me that you are right.
So even the Bibles that have “appear” have the logical understanding of, “it hasn't yet been made clear to us”. For example, “it hasn't yet appeared to us (to our minds/intellects) what we will be”.
Because using the other definition of “appear” leaves us with a nonsensical statement, as I've shown you above.
“What we will be” cannot physically “appear” before us, leaving the old and new “us” standing next to each other….. as if the “new us” physically appeared right before the eyes of the “old us”, right?
The following translation says it the best, IMO:
GOD'S WORD® Translation
What we will be isn't completely clear yet. We do know that when Christ appears we will be like him because we will see him as he is.What say you to this new information?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2014,16:53) Mike, Paul stated Jesus appeared to him also.
1 Corinthians 15:8
New American Standard Bible (NASB)8 and last of all, as [a]to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
And Jesus did indeed “appear” to Paul. But was Paul able to SEE Jesus “as he is”? Or did the light from the very presence of Jesus blind Paul?Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2014,16:55) Mike, Quote The earthly consist of flesh, blood, and bone. The heavenly do not. These are your word but Scripture does not say them.
God is one of “the heavenly” Kerwin. Does He consist of flesh, blood, and bone?We must use our God-given common sense to understand the scriptures. So the scriptures really DO say what I claim, but you are so far stubborn, and refuse to believe what the scriptures say, because you've got your own illogical scenario all worked out in your mind.
But that's okay, because you'll soon see that you have been wrong all this time.
I will await your response to that big post I just did.
Mike,
Quote
Posted: Feb. 15 2014,05:41 QUOTE
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2014,10:21)
Mike,You are not understanding.
Quote
” we will be has not yet been made known”A paraphrase is 'we have not yet obtained the body we will have'.
John was not saying he did not have knowledge about the resurrected body, though I am sure there are things he did not know about it.
You are right…….. I wasn't understanding YOUR understanding of “appeared” in those other two verses.
Let's test it out:
…..it doth not yet appear OBTAIN what we shall be….
Does that make sense to you? Of course not, so “obtain” is not a viable option. (It wasn't anyway because it is not even a synonym or definition of that Greek word.)
It is a paraphrase and not a sentence where certain words are replaced. Paraphrase is to say the same thing with different words so when you test if it is correct you test if the idea that each version expresses is the same.
For example “You know that He appeared in order to take away sins” tells us Jesus became bodily present to take away our sins. Using the Greek word in the same way then ” what we will be has not yet been made known” means the future bodily presence of the writer and those he writes to has not yet been obtained. So my paraphrase is an attempt to use words you might be more used to to open your eyes to what I was meaning.
The real test is to see if that is the idea that John is expressing.
Quote 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. Beloved, now we are children of God and we have not yet obtained the body we will have. We know when he bodily comes again that we will have a body like him because we will see his body as it is.
Beloved, now we are children of God, and we do not yet have knowledge of body we will have. We know when he bodily comes again that we will have a body like him because we will see his body as it is.
You seem to like the second interpretation while I favor the first.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2014,05:51) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2014,16:55) Mike, Quote The earthly consist of flesh, blood, and bone. The heavenly do not. These are your word but Scripture does not say them.
God is one of “the heavenly” Kerwin. Does He consist of flesh, blood, and bone?We must use our God-given common sense to understand the scriptures. So the scriptures really DO say what I claim, but you are so far stubborn, and refuse to believe what the scriptures say, because you've got your own illogical scenario all worked out in your mind.
But that's okay, because you'll soon see that you have been wrong all this time.
I will await your response to that big post I just did.
Mike,Psalm 104:1-3
New American Standard Bible (NASB)104 Bless the Lord, O my soul!
O Lord my God, You are very great;
You are clothed with splendor and majesty,
2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak,
Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain.
3 [a]He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters;
He makes the clouds His chariot;
[c]He walks upon the wings of the wind;
Footnotes:Psalm 104:3 Lit The one who
Psalm 104:3 Lit The one who
Psalm 104:3 Lit The one whoDo you still believe these words speak of heaven?
If so then heaven has light, water, clouds, wind, and perhaps other things.
Wouldn't a body made of any of those things mentioned or unmentioned be heavenly?
Note:
Psalm 104:4
New American Standard Bible (NASB)4 [a]He makes the winds His messengers,
[c]Flaming fire His ministers.
Footnotes:Psalm 104:4 Lit Who
Psalm 104:4 Or His angels, spirits
Psalm 104:4 Or His ministers flames of fireQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2014,05:48) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2014,16:53) Mike, Paul stated Jesus appeared to him also.
1 Corinthians 15:8
New American Standard Bible (NASB)8 and last of all, as [a]to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
And Jesus did indeed “appear” to Paul. But was Paul able to SEE Jesus “as he is”? Or did the light from the very presence of Jesus blind Paul?
Mike,I cannot say whether or not it did.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2014,11:26) Do you still believe these words speak of heaven? If so then heaven has light, water, clouds, wind, and perhaps other things.
Wouldn't a body made of any of those things mentioned or unmentioned be heavenly?
Yes,I believe that there is a different kind of “water” in heaven. We've discussed this before.
When Jesus says we must be born again from above by water and spirit, I don't believe it has anything to do with H2O. I think there is a “heavenly” form of “water”, of which God's spirit sons consist.
And we already know from images taken by the Hubbell space telescope that the heavens are filled with clouds and wind and light……. even heat and flames.
But all of this is outside our realm of discussion here.
The main thing you need to notice is that “FLESH” is never one of the things that can be considered “heavenly”.
And if we are to be “LIKE” the heavenly, then we will be “UNLIKE” the fleshly.
So the verses you quoted didn't help you, but me – because they once again show that “FLESH” is NOT ever mentioned as “heavenly”, although many other things are.
Mike,
My point is that just as earthly flesh is made if things of this earth heavenly flesh could be made of the things of heaven. Psalms 104 is not speaking of celestial objects though they like the clouds of earth would be objects of the sky of earth.
The only water I can think of in Scripture that you could be writing of is the water Jesus spoke of to the Samaritan woman and in that case Jesus used the word water to symbolize the word of God. I suppose that Jesus could have meant the same thing in his conversation with Nicodemus.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2014,11:10) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Let's test it out: …..it doth not yet appear OBTAIN what we shall be….
Does that make sense to you? Of course not, so “obtain” is not a viable option. (It wasn't anyway because it is not even a synonym or definition of that Greek word.)
It is a paraphrase and not a sentence where certain words are replaced. Paraphrase is to say the same thing with different words so when you test if it is correct you test if the idea that each version expresses is the same.
So my paraphrase is an attempt to use words you might be more used to to open your eyes to what I was meaning.
The real test is to see if that is the idea that John is expressing.
“Obtain” is NOT a synonym of “manifest”, or “appeared”. So your attempt falls flat on its face.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2014,11:10) For example “You know that He appeared in order to take away sins” tells us Jesus became bodily present to take away our sins.
Yes, that is ONE of the meanings of “appear”. But that doesn't HAVE TO BE the meaning, even in those two verses you quoted earlier:1 John 3:5 NET ©
And you know that Jesus was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.NRSV ©
You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.NKJV ©
And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.1 John 3:8 NET ©
For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil.NRSV ©
The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.NKJV ©
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2014,11:10) Using the Greek word in the same way then “what we will be has not yet been made known” means the future bodily presence of the writer and those he writes to has not yet been obtained.
No, because “obtained” isn't one of the meanings of that Greek word.Even if you understand “appeared” in this sense…….
1 John 3:8 MSG ©
The Son of God entered the scene to abolish the Devil's ways.…….. then we must be able to say those same words in 3:2. And that makes John's statement say:
“What we will be has not yet entered the scene….”
And like I said before, that is a ludicrous statement that would involve a different version of themselves “entering the scene”, and standing right beside the old version of themselves.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2014,11:10) 1. Beloved, now we are children of God and we have not yet obtained the body we will have. We know when he bodily comes again that we will have a body like him because we will see his body as it is. 2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and we do not yet have knowledge of body we will have. We know when he bodily comes again that we will have a body like him because we will see his body as it is.
You seem to like the second interpretation while I favor the first.
Once again, you CAN'T use the word “obtained”, because it is nowhere close to the meaning of the Greek word.But in either of those paraphrases, the point is:
1. We DON'T yet know………
BECAUSE………
2. We HAVEN'T yet seen him (or “his body” – like you tell it) as it is.
So no matter how quasi-philosophical you want to get with your bizarre wording here, the bottom line remains that the REASON they don't yet know what THEY will be is because they don't yet know what JESUS is.
And THAT, my friend, means that they DIDN'T yet see Jesus “as he is”.
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