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Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2014,10:21) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) 2. We don't yet know what JESUS is, because we have yet to see him as he is. Those John wrote to and us today just see Jesus as a thing we are to hope for. John also wanted to see Jesus in a similar way though he had seen him previously.
John included himself in the statement, Kerwin.John, who had indeed seen Jesus after the resurrection, said WE have yet to see him “as he is”.
That easily rebuts your claim that John had previously seen him “as he is”.
Agreed?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2014,22:47) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2014,10:21) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) 2. We don't yet know what JESUS is, because we have yet to see him as he is. Those John wrote to and us today just see Jesus as a thing we are to hope for. John also wanted to see Jesus in a similar way though he had seen him previously.
John included himself in the statement, Kerwin.John, who had indeed seen Jesus after the resurrection, said WE have yet to see him “as he is”.
That easily rebuts your claim that John had previously seen him “as he is”.
Agreed?
Mike,John also hoped to see Jesus as he is. He had previously seen him as he was. In the future he will see Jesus as he is. None of these statement, even when taken together, mean that Jesus has changed in any way from when John saw him after his resurrection to when John will see him in the future.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2014,15:59) Mike, John also hoped to see Jesus as he is. He had previously seen him as he was.
Kerwin,Not only do your two sentences contradict each other, but they blatantly contradict John's words in 1 John 3:2.
In that verse, John made it clear that he didn't yet know what he would be, but only that he would be like Jesus.
He made it clear that when Jesus returns, he would finally be able to see Jesus “as he is”.
You seem to be in denial here.
Compare John's words with Paul's words in Philippians 3:21.
Compare John's words with the fact that Paul, seeing just the radiance of Jesus on the road to Damascus, was blinded by the “brilliance of the light”.
I suppose you think Jesus was a very visible flesh being who was just shining a very bright flashlight into Paul's eyes, right?
And finally, compare John's words with Jesus' transfiguration. Have you read the description of Jesus during his transfiguration? Did he resemble anything like a regular old flesh and blood human being?
And that was just a foreshadowing of what Jesus is now, Kerwin. Why would God show the disciples that beautiful, brilliant, and awe-inspiring transfiguration on the mountain if Jesus was never going to be anything except for a flesh and bone human being that looked exactly like us?
Mike,
Quote In that verse, John made it clear that he didn't yet know what he would be, but only that he would be like Jesus. So you believe Paul did know while John did not even though they both taught the gospel.
Mike,
I tend to see ” it doth not yet appear what we shall be” as speaking of righteousness. I am attempting to adjust that viewpoint.
Mike,
Jesus was transfigured while having a flesh body. Peter offered to set up tents for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. His actions revealed he believed they were not spirits.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2014,18:40) Mike, Quote In that verse, John made it clear that he didn't yet know what he would be, but only that he would be like Jesus. So you believe Paul did know while John did not even though they both taught the gospel.
Paul and John both knew they would end up with a spiritual body – one that could blind a normal human being with its brilliance.Neither of them, as mere human beings of flesh and bone, had a clue as to EXACTLY what they would be, or the things they would be able to do with that new body.
The only thing Paul knew about that new body is that he couldn't see it directly with human eyes, since the brilliant light FROM that body was enough to render him blind.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2014,18:49) Mike, I tend to see ” it doth not yet appear what we shall be” as speaking of righteousness. I am attempting to adjust that viewpoint.
You're attempting to “adjust” what the scriptures say so that you can force them into what you already believe. This is your norm. But you're not really thinking straight here.Let's say you're right, and John was speaking about “righteousness”. If that was the case, then John had already seen Jesus in his “righteous” new body – according to you.
And John already knew that he would eventually be LIKE the “righteous new Jesus”.
Why then would he say that he DIDN'T yet know what he would be?
You are trying to make much more out of John's words than is there, because you are not happy with what those words, if left alone, teach us. You are purposely using the hard to understand KJV English version of that verse, in the hope that “confusion” might give you the “shadow of doubt” that you are looking for.
In short, you are basically running away from your problem – hoping that maybe it will just go away or something. It won't.
Here are the facts:
1. John DID know that he would be like Jesus is now.
2. John DIDN'T know exactly what that would entail, because he hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he now is”.
Get it? John didn't know what HE would be (even though he DID know he would be like Jesus) because he didn't yet know what Jesus became.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2014,19:08) Mike, Jesus was transfigured while having a flesh body. Peter offered to set up tents for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. His actions revealed he believed they were not spirits.
And it is also written in that passage that Peter was basically in shock, and didn't know what he was doing, or talking about.Did the glowing threesome on the mountain really NEED tents, Kerwin? Were they really flesh and bone beings that needed shelter from the elements?
Besides, that is yet another diversion on your part.
Kerwin, do you think Jesus looks just like a regular human being right now? Or do you think he looks more like he did during the transfiguration?
Mike,
These are your words which I am changing to show that the same can be said of a flesh body that is given the power of life by the Spirit.
Paul and John both knew they would end up with a Spiritual body – one that could blind a normal human being with its brilliance.
Neither of them, as mere human beings of flesh and blood, had a clue as to EXACTLY what they would be, or the things they would be able to do with that new body.
The only thing Paul knew about that new body is that he couldn't see it directly with human eyes, since the brilliant light FROM that body was enough to render him blind.
Note: Is there a block indent I can use to indent the whole block?
Are you saying a new spiritual flesh body is too brilliant to be seen by human eyes? If so, how did they all see Jesus in his resurrection body?
Kerwin,
You are either missing or avoiding the only point that needed to be made:
John DID know that he would be like Jesus is.
But John DIDN'T know exactly what he would be, because he had yet to see Jesus as he is.
That should be more than enough to tell you that John hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he is” at the time he wrote those words. If he had, then he would have KNOWN what he would be when Jesus comes again. But he said he DIDN'T know what he'd be.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 11 2014,03:30) Are you saying a new spiritual flesh body is too brilliant to be seen by human eyes? If so, how did they all see Jesus in his resurrection body?
Mike,That is another discussion as I was using your words to demonstrate the error in your chosen explanation. I do not even support the words I wrote as I believe you are in err in more than one way in those words of yours I used.
I do support the idea that your explanation can fit a flesh body as well as any other.
Mike,
John is not saying that in the past he did not see Jesus as he is. He is saying he will see Jesus as he is in the future.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 10 2014,06:40) Mike, Quote In that verse, John made it clear that he didn't yet know what he would be, but only that he would be like Jesus. So you believe Paul did know while John did not even though they both taught the gospel.
Mile,You have failed to reasonably explain this dilemma in your teaching.
Mike,
I am behind in this thread as I am also dealing with other things in my life at this time.
Previously you said:
Quote In that verse, John made it clear that he didn't yet know what he would be, but only that he would be like Jesus. That is not what it says. Instead it says ” we will be has not yet been made known” or “and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be” or “and it has not appeared as yet what we will be”.
In short John nor those he wrote to had not yet obtained that which they hoped for.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 10 2014,21:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 11 2014,03:30) Are you saying a new spiritual flesh body is too brilliant to be seen by human eyes? If so, how did they all see Jesus in his resurrection body?
Mike,That is another discussion as I was using your words to demonstrate the error in your chosen explanation. I do not even support the words I wrote as I believe you are in err in more than one way in those words of yours I used.
I do support the idea that your explanation can fit a flesh body as well as any other.
Hmmmmm…………You haven't SHOWN me that I was in error – nor have you SHOWN me that the words I used would also apply to a regular old flesh and bone human body.
Just SAYING it is worth nothing. You must SHOW it.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 11 2014,08:38) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 10 2014,06:40) Mike, Quote In that verse, John made it clear that he didn't yet know what he would be, but only that he would be like Jesus. So you believe Paul did know while John did not even though they both taught the gospel.
Mile,You have failed to reasonably explain this dilemma in your teaching.
Please explain what you're perceiving as “my dilemma”.I'm not seeing one.
Paul never saw Jesus “as he is”. He was blinded by the light from Jesus' presence, and aspired to having a new glorious body like Jesus now has……….. but he never actually saw Jesus “as he is”.
John also never saw Jesus “as he is”.
So what are you saying that Paul knew that John did not? I'm lost.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 11 2014,08:50) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) In that verse, John made it clear that he didn't yet know what he would be, but only that he would be like Jesus. That is not what it says. Instead it says ” we will be has not yet been made known” or “and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be” or “and it has not appeared as yet what we will be”.
Okay?Don't all of those wordings mean, “We don't yet know what we will be, because it has not yet been shown (“made manifest”) to us what we will be.” ?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 10 2014,21:53) Mike, These are your words which I am changing to show that the same can be said of a flesh body that is given the power of life by the Spirit.
Paul and John both knew they would end up with a Spiritual body – one that could blind a normal human being with its brilliance.
Neither of them, as mere human beings of flesh and blood, had a clue as to EXACTLY what they would be, or the things they would be able to do with that new body.
The only thing Paul knew about that new body is that he couldn't see it directly with human eyes, since the brilliant light FROM that body was enough to render him blind.
Note: Is there a block indent I can use to indent the whole block?
Mike,This post demonstrates that your explanation is flawed as I applied your words to a flesh body. Actually it is your reasoning as you explanation when applied to a flesh body answers your objection. Thus if I use the ideas of your own words I can say The apostles saw Jesus immortal flesh body but they did not know everything about it. When Jesus comes again and they are like him they will know more.
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