- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Mike,
Quote And that God was willing to accept a blemished sacrifice in this case – even though He had never accepted a blemished sacrifice in the past? A technical point is that even in a damageable body Jesus was no more flawed than any sacrifice Jehovah accepted in the past.
I still am sticking to the idea the the body was not the way Jesus needed to be blameless in order to make a worthy sacrifice for each and every human being.
This actually merges into the answer for other part in that Jesus preformed one act of mercy to ransom mankind. He did not pay in money or any other tangible good but by paying the wages of sin when he was not guilty of the crime.
Hebrews 2:14
New American Standard Bible (NASB)14 Therefore, since the children share in [a]flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Footnotes:Hebrews 2:14 Lit blood and flesh
Note: blood and flesh are both genitives in Greek so it would properly be “of blood and of flesh”. The noun types in 1 Corinthians 15:50 are different.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2014,07:30) Kerwin, How was Mary able to produce a human body who had no father at all?
Mike,We are able to clone today and we also manipulate genes. Is our technology greater than God's ability?
Even in cloning and gene manipulation, which human being can live without having ultimately come from y AND x chromosomes?
Whose y chromosome did Jesus' body have?
I find it hard to believe that you think all parts of Jesus were fathered by God……. EXCEPT FOR his body.
Isn't it written, “A body YOU have prepared for me” ?
I assume the “YOU” is God. How could God have “prepared” a body for Jesus without at least metaphorically “fathering” that body?
And doesn't the fact that God PERSONALLY prepared this earthly body for Jesus go against your claim that it was a blemished body like the rest of us have? Did God DIRECTLY prepare a BLEMISHED body for His only begotten Son?
Or is it more likely that God would have prepared a PERFECT body for His only begotten – like the one he prepared for Adam?
Kerwin,
All this is to make the point that Jesus was the exception to Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15.
He was never exactly like the rest of those to whom Paul gave that teaching, and therefore was an exception to that teaching.
But we don't really need to go through all of this in order to support my claim, because the teaching is answering the question, “With what kind of body will the resurrected come”?
The people are not asking Paul about any former resurrections, like that of Jesus. They are asking about what they are to expect in the future.
Do you agree with that last paragraph?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2014,21:18) Even in cloning and gene manipulation, which human being can live without having ultimately come from y AND x chromosomes? Whose y chromosome did Jesus' body have?
I find it hard to believe that you think all parts of Jesus were fathered by God……. EXCEPT FOR his body.
Isn't it written, “A body YOU have prepared for me” ?
I assume the “YOU” is God. How could God have “prepared” a body for Jesus without at least metaphorically “fathering” that body?
And doesn't the fact that God PERSONALLY prepared this earthly body for Jesus go against your claim that it was a blemished body like the rest of us have? Did God DIRECTLY prepare a BLEMISHED body for His only begotten Son?
Or is it more likely that God would have prepared a PERFECT body for His only begotten – like the one he prepared for Adam?
Mike,We with out poor grip of genetic manipulation are able to insert jellyfish genes in a number of different mammals so God is able to change an X to a Y as he is the author of the code.
God prepared a body for Adam by making it from the dust of the ground so don't you believe he can make a body the cell of a woman in preparing it for the Christ?
A body that possess eternal life cannot be killed unless God chooses to toss it into hellfire. In order for it to be killed God would have to withdraw his Spirit from directing it and at that point it would become a natural body.
Adam changed from having a Spiritual body to having a natural body and Jesus changed from having a natural body to having a Spiritual body. The transformation Jesus underwent is an reverse reflection of the transformation Adam experienced.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2014,21:52) Kerwin, All this is to make the point that Jesus was the exception to Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15.
He was never exactly like the rest of those to whom Paul gave that teaching, and therefore was an exception to that teaching.
But we don't really need to go through all of this in order to support my claim, because the teaching is answering the question, “With what kind of body will the resurrected come”?
The people are not asking Paul about any former resurrections, like that of Jesus. They are asking about what they are to expect in the future.
Do you agree with that last paragraph?
Mike,No, I do not agree as Paul used Jesus' resurrection as evidence there was a resurrection of the body.
On the other hand verse 50 is speaking of the world to come since it uses the word “inherit”.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 01 2014,14:02) God prepared a body for Adam by making it from the dust of the ground so don't you believe he can make a body the cell of a woman in preparing it for the Christ?
I agree that God could have made that body for Jesus any way He wanted to make it, and by any means He wanted to use.But the bottom line is that God is the one who personally made the body for Adam, and Adam is called “the son of God” in Luke 3:38. In the case of Adam, God ALONE was his “father”. Adam had no earthly father, because God alone was his ONLY father.
It is the same with Jesus. If God was the one and only person who prepared that body for Jesus, then God “fathered” the body of Jesus.
And since God did NOT prepare a BLEMISHED body for His son Adam, why do you think He would prepare a BLEMISHED body for His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ?
Kerwin,
My point remains that Jesus wasn't exactly like everyone else who will be raised from the dead. There were things about Jesus that were different from anyone else who is to follow him from death to life.
Would you agree to that?
Wakeup, this is a private thread. Thanks for understanding.
Gene, this is the FOURTH time I've asked you not to post in this thread.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 02 2014,22:09) Kerwin, My point remains that Jesus wasn't exactly like everyone else who will be raised from the dead. There were things about Jesus that were different from anyone else who is to follow him from death to life.
Would you agree to that?
Mike,Jesus is the heir of God and so there are some differences related to that. One seems to be the ability to read the hearts of men. Another is that he was given the authority to forgive men and to perform miracles. He also spoke and performed the actions of the word of God. The bottom line is that he is a man just like his brothers as far as he was being tempted by evil. That similarity is crucial to our faith.
His body was made of a woman different than any other human. Never the less it is still a human body. You seem to believe that before his resurrection his was a body that was never subjected to decay while I believe it was as it aged and died.
Romans 8:18-23
New International Version (NIV)18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
Footnotes:Romans 8:21 Or subjected it in hope. 21 For
Jesus was conceived differently than every other human being but then there are other differences in conception among human beings. Other than that I know of no difference as far as his pre-resurection body was concerned.
Yes, there was a difference in the process of his conception.
No, there was no difference in his pre-resurection body.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 02 2014,17:24) Yes, there was a difference in the process of his conception.
No, there was no difference in his pre-resurection body.
I disagree about that part, Kerwin.But let me ask you if Jesus was an EXCEPTION to Paul's 1 Cor 15 teaching for any reason whatsoever.
I say YES. What do you say?
(Whatever your answer, I will accept it as your final answer and move on. We seem to have grown stagnant on this part.
Sorry about that.)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2014,04:20) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 02 2014,17:24) Yes, there was a difference in the process of his conception.
No, there was no difference in his pre-resurection body.
I disagree about that part, Kerwin.But let me ask you if Jesus was an EXCEPTION to Paul's 1 Cor 15 teaching for any reason whatsoever.
I say YES. What do you say?
(Whatever your answer, I will accept it as your final answer and move on. We seem to have grown stagnant on this part.
Sorry about that.)
Mike,I say no as I believe his body was planted in his tomb and it arose from his burial place changed.
Okay Kerwin,
So you believe that the body Jesus dwelled on earth with for 40 more days before being taken to heaven was his new “spiritual” body, right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2014,01:02) Okay Kerwin, So you believe that the body Jesus dwelled on earth with for 40 more days before being taken to heaven was his new “spiritual” body, right?
Mike,Yes, I believe he was in his spiritual body after his resurrection and therefore during the forty days just previous to his ascension to heaven. I will go so far as to state that when his natural body changed to his spiritual body life entered his body once more.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 04 2014,16:46) Yes, I believe he was in his spiritual body after his resurrection and therefore during the forty days just previous to his ascension to heaven.
According to your belief, John and the others all saw Jesus in his new spiritual body, right?Why then did John say this:
1 John 3:2
…….what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.According to your understanding, John already knew what they would be, because they had already seen Jesus “as he is”. But that doesn't match the words John said.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 06 2014,04:21) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 04 2014,16:46) Yes, I believe he was in his spiritual body after his resurrection and therefore during the forty days just previous to his ascension to heaven.
According to your belief, John and the others all saw Jesus in his new spiritual body, right?Why then did John say this:
1 John 3:2
…….what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.According to your understanding, John already knew what they would be, because they had already seen Jesus “as he is”. But that doesn't match the words John said.
Mike,1 John 2:28-3:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.None of the apostles were like Jesus when they saw him last.
Hi Kerwin,
I'm not sure how quoting the hard to understand English of the KJV changes anything, but:
…….it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
These are the things we can take away from the above words:
1. We don't yet know what WE will be.
2. We don't yet know what JESUS is, because we have yet to see him as he is.
3. When Jesus comes again, we will not only be able to see him as he now is, but we will also be like him at that time.
The bottom line is that they hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he is”.
Agreed?
Mike,
I answered the question you asked of:
Quote
Why then did John say this:Now you have additional points.
Quote 1. We don't yet know what WE will be. I agree.
Quote 2. We don't yet know what JESUS is, because we have yet to see him as he is. Those John wrote to and us today just see Jesus as a thing we are to hope for. John also wanted to see Jesus in a similar way though he had seen him previously.
Quote 3. When Jesus comes again, we will not only be able to see him as he now is, but we will also be like him at that time. I agree.
Mike,
Quote The bottom line is that they hadn't yet seen Jesus “as he is”. The bottom line is that we currently hope to see Jesus but that but that we do not see him. In that hope we purify ourselves by faith just as he is pure. When we see him we will see him as he is and not how we think he is, unless our thoughts agree with what is.
If that is what you are meaning then I do agree.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
