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Mike,
1) Thank you.
2) His body was made of a woman but his spirit was born of God.
3) We are in a time of cloning and human children born of a woman but not a man may well be walking the earth. In my opinion they will bear the “sin seed” as do identical twins. Jesus had the Spirit and that is stronger than the “sin seed”. I like to think Jesus was given the Spirit because he was the optimum man of faith.Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 22 2014,04:07) Jesus had the Spirit and that is stronger than the “sin seed”.
1. Paul does say that God sent His Son “in the likeness of sinful flesh” – so maybe you're onto something there.2. But why would we need to be raised with a different kind of body then? If God's Spirit is stronger than the “sin seed”, wouldn't just receiving the Spirit from God take care of all the rest?
3. In what way do you think the body Jesus was raised from the dead in was different? You think it was still flesh, but no longer “sinful” flesh?
Mike,
Quote But why would we need to be raised with a different kind of body then? If God's Spirit is stronger than the “sin seed”, wouldn't just receiving the Spirit from God take care of all the rest? That may well be what happens as Paul writes that those still alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. It would also go with the idea of the body being redeemed.
It is my understanding the sin seed is removed but being negated might still the conclusion of freeing creation from its bondage.
Mike,
Quote 3. In what way do you think the body Jesus was raised from the dead in was different? You think it was still flesh, but no longer “sinful” flesh? I have not looked into the matter but I do know that with God the body has an unlimited amount of power to deal with the things out current body have to deal with. If God so willed a man whose body was controlled by the spirit could walk on clouds as if they were solid.
The most obvious effect would be that it would neither wither, be injured, get sick, or perish.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,15:56) Mike, Yes, Jesus did have a body that was guided by the breath before his resurrection.
And do the rest of us have that same kind of body – one that is “guided by the breath”?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2014,00:16) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,15:56) Mike, Yes, Jesus did have a body that was guided by the breath before his resurrection.
And do the rest of us have that same kind of body – one that is “guided by the breath”?
Mike,Yes. though in this case breath is not Spirit.
Are you sure? I wonder because of a couple of things.
First, you said that Adam was originally created “perfect” – or with a “spiritual flesh body” – or whatever, right?
And if sin entered the world through this first “perfect” human being, and Jesus was a “corresponding sacrifice” to counteract that sin, then wouldn't the body Jesus sacrificed also have to be “perfect”?
Also, consider:
Psalm 49
7 No one can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for them—8 the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough—9 so that they should live on forever
and not see decay.The regular old “sinful body” of a regular old sinful human being could not be sacrificed for even one human life – let alone millions of them.
Also consider:
1 Peter 1
18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!God would not accept blemished lambs and bulls for sacrifices in the OT, right? The body that Jesus offered up as a sacrifice to God had to be PERFECT, and UNBLEMISHED.
You and I don't have a body like that. And that's why WE could never offer ourselves as a ransom for even one human being. We are blemished, Kerwin. Jesus was not.
So even though I still have a hard time talking about a BODY being “spiritual”, wouldn't you agree that the body Jesus offered up to God was already an unblemished, “spiritual” body – and therefore different than the bodies of the rest of us?
Also consider that Jesus wasn't produced from the sinful body of a human male, but from God Himself.
What say you?
Mike,
Quote And if sin entered the world through this first “perfect” human being, and Jesus was a “corresponding sacrifice” to counteract that sin, then wouldn't the body Jesus sacrificed also have to be “perfect”? Just the opposite as Jesus purpose was to redeem the body as well as the soul of mankind.
Jesus had to be tempted just like his brothers and having a body that was guided by the spirit would have made it so he was not. Instead his body had to age, be damageable, suffer from hunger and thirst, be mortal, and in other ways be like his brothers for him to be tempted as they are. In this way he became a high priest that is able to sympathize with them.
So then you believe the first Adam was created as a perfect being, but the last Adam was a sin-ridden fraction of that first man?
Also, please address the scriptures I quoted – the ones that say Jesus had to be an UNBLEMISHED lamb.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2014,17:07) Just the opposite as Jesus purpose was to redeem the body as well as the soul of mankind.
And can a sinful body redeem sinful bodies? What did Psalm 49 say?Also, if Jesus' body had to be sinful in order to redeem man's sinful bodies, then wouldn't Jesus' soul also have had to been sinful, to redeem our sinful souls?
Also, did the Israelites have to search out a BLEMISHED lamb to atone for their BLEMISHED behavior? Or were they to find an UNBLEMISHED lamb to sacrifice for their BLEMISHED behavior?
Which one?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2014,07:00) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2014,17:07) Just the opposite as Jesus purpose was to redeem the body as well as the soul of mankind.
And can a sinful body redeem sinful bodies? What did Psalm 49 say?Also, if Jesus' body had to be sinful in order to redeem man's sinful bodies, then wouldn't Jesus' soul also have had to been sinful, to redeem our sinful souls?
Also, did the Israelites have to search out a BLEMISHED lamb to atone for their BLEMISHED behavior? Or were they to find an UNBLEMISHED lamb to sacrifice for their BLEMISHED behavior?
Which one?
Mike,I assume you speak of Psalms 49:7-9 that in some English versions states the “no one can redeem the life of another” and that “no payment is ever enough”.
Psalm 49:7-9
New International Version (NIV)7 No one can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for them—
8 the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough—
9 so that they should live on forever
and not see decay.Yet we are told that Jesus made a payment that was enough as he has always known God desires mercy and not sacrifice.
Perhaps we should look to verse 5-6 to give us some context and explain why the was was a payment that was enough even after verse 8 said there was not.
Psalm 49:5-6
New International Version (NIV)5 Why should I fear when evil days come,
when wicked deceivers surround me—
6 those who trust in their wealth
and boast of their great riches?Mike,
As to the answer to your second point. I can say that it was needful for Jesus to tempted even as is common with man and not sin for his act of mercy in sacrificing himself to have an effect. In dying he showed this world and the “God” of it was unjust as it put a man that did not earn the wages of sin to death.
If his body was not mortal then he would not have been able to die. I doubt that he could have made the statement, have courage as I have overcome the world.
Mike,
Jesus was an unblemished lamb in the way that counted as he did not sin even though tempted as is common to men.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 28 2014,09:00) If his body was not mortal then he would not have been able to die.
I have never thought that Jesus' human body was immortal, and have therefore never made a claim that it was.What I'm saying is that the human body God created Adam with was “perfect” (not “immortal”). And it was a PERFECT man/body that sinned, and therefore it had to be a PERFECT man/body that redeemed that sin.
Do you believe God accepted as a sacrificial lamb a body that was diseased, lame, or flawed in any way?
How did that work in the OT? Were they allowed to bring a flawed animal for a sacrifice? Or did it have to be unblemished, and perfect in every way?
Anyway, I won't keep harping on this, because we have many more things to discuss in this thread.
So it seems that my bottom line is that the body Jesus sacrificed to God was UNBLEMISHED. It was a body like no other BLEMISHED human being had then, or has now.
And your bottom line is that, even though he had God Almighty as his literal father, Jesus had a BLEMISHED body like the rest of mankind….. and God accepted that BLEMISHED, sinful body as an atoning sacrifice.
Does that accurately sum up our viewpoints?
Mike,
Quote Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!It was through the Spirit that Jesus offered himself unblemished and not through the flesh after all Jesus walk according to the ways of the Spirit was without blemish.
His body was like a sheep's and was destined to die; death was its shepherd but his righteousness prevailed over it in the morning. Inspired by Psalms 49:14.
I don't see where Adam's body was destined to die unless in the sense he was destined to sin. The body returning to dust was one of the curses God placed on Adam for his sin.
Jesus offering himself to God “through the Spirit” does not mean only the spirit part of Jesus was the unblemished part, Kerwin.
For example, 1 Peter 1:19 doesn't say anything about “through the Spirit”, right?
In my last post, I asked a question. If you answer it, we can move forward with the discussion.
Is it your understanding that, even though Jesus was fathered directly from God Himself, he dwelled on earth with the same kind of corrupted, diseased, and sin-ridden body that the rest of mankind had then, and has now?
And that God was willing to accept a blemished sacrifice in this case – even though He had never accepted a blemished sacrifice in the past?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2014,06:10) Jesus offering himself to God “through the Spirit” does not mean only the spirit part of Jesus was the unblemished part, Kerwin. For example, 1 Peter 1:19 doesn't say anything about “through the Spirit”, right?
In my last post, I asked a question. If you answer it, we can move forward with the discussion.
Is it your understanding that, even though Jesus was fathered directly from God Himself, he dwelled on earth with the same kind of corrupted, diseased, and sin-ridden body that the rest of mankind had then, and has now?
And that God was willing to accept a blemished sacrifice in this case – even though He had never accepted a blemished sacrifice in the past?
Mike,Sorry, I missed it.
Jesus' body was not fathered by God. Being a man his soul came to be when the breath combined with the body. His Spirit was conceived and born of God. That is how God fathers his children.
His body is descended from Adam's fallen body and was part of this world which was put under bondage by Adam's sin.
Yes, Jesus was fathered of God, as for the spirit, but as for his flesh, it was of his world.
No, Jesus was not fathered of God, as of the body, though his flesh was of this world.Peter did not see a need to say “through the Spirit” in 1 Peter 1.19.
Romans 5:18-19
New International Version (NIV)18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
It was by Jesus act of righteousness in sacrificing himself for the sake of his bothers.
Kerwin,
I didn't notice an answer to the second part. Was God willing to accept a BLEMISHED sacrifice in the case of Jesus?
The passage you posted from Romans 9 confirms for me that Jesus was a CORRESPONDING ransom. What that means is that if the first man who sinned was PERFECT and UNBLEMISHED, the corresponding sacrifice had to also be PERFECT and UNBLEMISHED.
But please directly tell me if you believe God was willing to accept a BLEMISHED lamb in the case of Jesus.
Also, you say Jesus' BODY was not fathered by God. How can a human woman produce a human body all by herself?
Marty, I appreciate your attempt to help, but this is a private thread for right now. Thanks for understanding.
Gene, this is the THIRD time I've asked you not to post in this thread.
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