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This thread is currently for only Kerwin and Mike. Thanks for not posting here until the thread is opened up for all.
1 Corinthians 15:35
But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”Kerwin, are we clear that the question Paul is about to answer concerns the new BODIES of the dead who are raised back to life?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2014,08:26) This thread is currently for only Kerwin and Mike. Thanks for not posting here until the thread is opened up for all. 1 Corinthians 15:35
But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”Kerwin, are we clear that the question Paul is about to answer concerns the new BODIES of the dead who are raised back to life?
Mike,Yes; also the changed bodies.
1 Corinthians 15
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable……..44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Is Paul still talking about the BODIES of those raised from the dead in the above verses?
And what kind of “body” is meant by the word “natural” in the translation I quoted?
Would it be safe to assume that Paul was talking about the natural body made of flesh, blood and bone that all humans possess?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2014,06:05) And what kind of “body” is meant by the word “natural” in the translation I quoted? Would it be safe to assume that Paul was talking about the natural body made of flesh, blood and bone that all humans possess?
Mike,It is the non-Spitual body we have in this current world that is still subject to frustration.
There is a non-Spiritual man and there is a non-Spiritual body.
There is a Spiritual man and there is a Spiritual body.I assume you know that when Scripture speaks of a Spiritual man it is speaking of a man that is led by the Spirit. In a like manner when it is speaking of a non-Spiritual man it is speaking of a man that is led by the principles of this world instead of by the Spirit.
The same is true of the body though the effect is different.
I speak of the Spiritual man and the natural man because the same adjectives are used. The natural man is of this world while the spiritual man is of heaven.
The “natural body made of flesh, blood and bone that all humans possess” is not relevant to the passage except that idea is summed up by the word “body”.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 14 2014,15:43) I assume you know that when Scripture speaks of a Spiritual man it is speaking of a man that is led by the Spirit. In a like manner when it is speaking of a non-Spiritual man it is speaking of a man that is led by the principles of this world instead of by the Spirit.
Your post brings a few questions to my mind, but we have to start somewhere, right?We all know that Jesus was a spiritual man, and was led by the Spirit – even while he was on earth fulfilling his ministry, right?
But did Jesus have a “sinful BODY” that was “led by the principles of this world instead of by the Spirit” while he was on earth?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,06:00) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 14 2014,15:43) I assume you know that when Scripture speaks of a Spiritual man it is speaking of a man that is led by the Spirit. In a like manner when it is speaking of a non-Spiritual man it is speaking of a man that is led by the principles of this world instead of by the Spirit.
Your post brings a few questions to my mind, but we have to start somewhere, right?We all know that Jesus was a spiritual man, and was led by the Spirit – even while he was on earth fulfilling his ministry, right?
But did Jesus have a “sinful BODY” that was “led by the principles of this world instead of by the Spirit” while he was on earth?
Mike,I don't think that Scripture looks at it as a sinful body.
I believe instead it looks at it as:
Quote the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God and
Quote governed by breath Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,15:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,06:00)
But did Jesus have a “sinful BODY” that was “led by the principles of this world instead of by the Spirit” while he was on earth?
Mike,I don't think that Scripture looks at it as a sinful body.
I believe instead it looks at it as:
Quote the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
Okay. Let's use the words you quoted. Do those words describe Jesus when he was on earth?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,04:34) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,15:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,06:00)
But did Jesus have a “sinful BODY” that was “led by the principles of this world instead of by the Spirit” while he was on earth?
Mike,I don't think that Scripture looks at it as a sinful body.
I believe instead it looks at it as:
Quote the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
Okay. Let's use the words you quoted. Do those words describe Jesus when he was on earth?
Mike,You mean Jesus' body.
Romans 8:20-23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,22:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,04:34) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,15:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,06:00)
But did Jesus have a “sinful BODY” that was “led by the principles of this world instead of by the Spirit” while he was on earth?
Mike,I don't think that Scripture looks at it as a sinful body.
I believe instead it looks at it as:
Quote the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
Okay. Let's use the words you quoted. Do those words describe Jesus when he was on earth?
Mike,You mean Jesus' body.
Romans 8:20-23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
But you said earlier,
I assume you know that when Scripture speaks of a Spiritual man it is speaking of a man that is led by the Spirit. In a like manner when it is speaking of a non-Spiritual man it is speaking of a man that is led by the principles of this world instead of by the Spirit.The same is true of the body though the effect is different.What I want to know is if JESUS fit the description of a “non-spiritual man” with a “non-spiritual body” during his ministry on earth.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2014,00:49) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,22:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,04:34) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,15:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,06:00)
But did Jesus have a “sinful BODY” that was “led by the principles of this world instead of by the Spirit” while he was on earth?
Mike,I don't think that Scripture looks at it as a sinful body.
I believe instead it looks at it as:
Quote the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
Okay. Let's use the words you quoted. Do those words describe Jesus when he was on earth?
Mike,You mean Jesus' body.
Romans 8:20-23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
But you said earlier,
I assume you know that when Scripture speaks of a Spiritual man it is speaking of a man that is led by the Spirit. In a like manner when it is speaking of a non-Spiritual man it is speaking of a man that is led by the principles of this world instead of by the Spirit.The same is true of the body though the effect is different.What I want to know is if JESUS fit the description of a “non-spiritual man” with a “non-spiritual body” during his ministry on earth.
Mike,Jesus was a spiritual man in non-spiritual before his resurrection. A spiritual body cannot be killed.
What you're saying now doesn't align with these words you supported earlier:
the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
Was Jesus “flesh” while on earth?
And how can you say Jesus himself was a spiritual man, but dwelled in a sinful body that was “apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God”?
Can a non-conscious thing like a “body” be “opposed to God”?
And if so, WHY do you suppose the body of Jesus was “opposed to God”?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2014,21:35) What you're saying now doesn't align with these words you supported earlier: the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
Was Jesus “flesh” while on earth?
And how can you say Jesus himself was a spiritual man, but dwelled in a sinful body that was “apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God”?
Can a non-conscious thing like a “body” be “opposed to God”?
And if so, WHY do you suppose the body of Jesus was “opposed to God”?
Mike,The comment not always appropriate to the context.
Jesus dwelt in a body that was in “bondage to corruption” and was delivered delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God. That was 'the redemption of his body'.
I would say that a body can be opposed to God as 'corruption cannot inherit incorruption'.
So then Jesus existed on earth with a body that was, “apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God”?
Is that your claim?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2014,05:39) Kerwin, Are you ever going to answer my last questions in our private “Word” thread?
Mike,Please tell me where it is as I have lost it. Bounce it if it is on this forum. Thank you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2014,05:38) So then Jesus existed on earth with a body that was, “apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God”? Is that your claim?
Mike,Not exactly.
'So then Jesus existed on earth with a body that was, “apart from divine influence”' is correct.
The part I omitted is the expert's commend and does suit certain contexts but not all.
I'm liking these private threads. I consider you to be an intelligent seeker of scriptural truths (most times), and I'm hopeful we'll get to the bottom of some things.
I hear what you're saying, but tell me “why”? How could the body of Jesus be “apart from divine influence”, when he was fathered directly by God Himself?
Sin entered the world through a human being, and was carried to each of us through the seed of that human being, and his subsequent male offspring. But Jesus isn't the offspring of a human male. So it seems to me that the “sin seed” wasn't passed on to him.
Also, here is that other thread.
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