The soul

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2005,09:49)

Hi david and kenrch,
Acts 17.25f
“…since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth..”

So Adam was given life from the breath of God and all men since derive life through Adam?

Hey Nick,

Act 17:25 neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

I've looked in the American Standrad (above) and ALT, BBE,ESV,GW,HCSB,ISV,KJVT, KJV-1611, KJVA, MRC, AND MURDOCK NEW TRANSLATION.

Not a one says “from ONE man” but ALL say he himself givethto all life, and breath, and all things;

The scripture varys very little from translation to translation.

So where did you get that scripyure.

October 26, 2005 at 11:03 pm#9891

Participant

Hi K,
I use NASB almost always.

October 26, 2005 at 11:21 pm#9892

Participant

It looks like they are adding to the bible. The scripture doesn't hint of one man.

October 26, 2005 at 11:28 pm#9893

Participant

Hi k,
I am trying to sort whether God gives breath individually to each man and beast or whether what he did in the Garden set in train life in perpetuity just like starting a fire. What does scripture say do you know?

October 26, 2005 at 11:52 pm#9895

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2005,00:28)

Acts 17:25…….himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

God gives life and breath to all things. God is every where. Just look at nature, dna, the universe etc.

But I know what you are saying. I must confess that I said God didn't make me. He made the machine that made me. If someone threw something into the machine that didn't belong and make it sick, then that wasn't His fault.

Here's the thing if you married your sister and had children would they be disformed?

So again who were the people Cain was afraid of?

Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the ground; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer in the earth; and it will come to pass, that whosoever findeth me will slay me.

October 27, 2005 at 12:12 am#9896

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 27 2005,00:52)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2005,00:28)

Acts 17:25…….himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

God gives life and breath to all things. God is every where. Just look at nature, dna, the universe etc.

Here's the thing if you married your sister and had children would they be disformed?

So again who were the people Cain was afraid of?

Hi k,
All the others on the earth were his relatives-all his family had many sons. No wonder he was afraid of revenge.

October 27, 2005 at 12:19 am#9897

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 27 2005,00:52)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2005,00:28)

Acts 17:25…….himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

God gives life and breath to all things. God is every where. Just look at nature, dna, the universe etc.

Here's the thing if you married your sister and had children would they be disformed?

So again who were the people Cain was afraid of?

Is this the problem?

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known

October 27, 2005 at 12:45 am#9898

Participant

Hi,
If I married my sister with the accumulated genetic abnormalities we both have inherited we would be more likely than other couples to have malformations among our children. Satan has been very busy since Adam was created. But there is nothing to suggest Adam was created with genetic abnormalities. God says His creation was good.

October 27, 2005 at 1:04 am#9900

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 27 2005,00:01)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2005,09:49)

Hi david and kenrch,
Acts 17.25f
“…since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth..”

So Adam was given life from the breath of God and all men since derive life through Adam?

Hey Nick,

Act 17:25 neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

I've looked in the American Standrad (above) and ALT, BBE,ESV,GW,HCSB,ISV,KJVT, KJV-1611, KJVA, MRC, AND MURDOCK NEW TRANSLATION.

Not a one says “from ONE man” but ALL say he himself givethto all life, and breath, and all things;

The scripture varys very little from translation to translation.

So where did you get that scripyure.

Hi k,
It is actually verse 26 I am particularly interested in.

October 27, 2005 at 1:26 am#9904

Participant

Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2005,18:14)

Kenrch, you asked about two scriptures. Here's the first. And no, I'm not ingoring you. There is no click. I'm just not on here all the time, and prefer to have one conversation at a time, to discuss one scripture at a time. So, here is one:

MATTHEW 10:28
“And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Geheńna.”

This scripture must agree with the other hundreds of scriptures that make use of the word “soul.” All scripture is true. If a hundred scriptures give as one meaning of soul: ‘the person or animal’ and another hundred scriptures say that that person or animal (soul) can be can be ‘killed,’ ‘destoyed,’ ‘die,’ etc, then it is so. And if another hundred scriptures give another meaning of soul, namely, ‘the life that the person or animal has,’ then that cannot really be disputed either.
So how does this one scripture compare to those other very clear scriptures that cannot be nullified? It compares perfectly, as it should. It doesn’t go against or conflict with any of them.

First, what is the ‘fiery Gehenna’ to which Jesus referred?

Reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Five times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered the Greek expression géennan tou pyroś as “hell fire” (KJ, Dy), “fires of hell” (NE), “fiery pit” (AT), and “fires of Gehenna” (NAB).

Historical background: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one’s “whole body” into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.

At Matthew 10:28, Jesus warned his hearers to “be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” What does it mean? Notice that there is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna; rather, he says to ‘fear him that can DESTROY in Gehenna.’ By referring to the “soul” separately, Jesus here emphasizes that God can destroy all of a person’s life prospects; thus there is no hope of resurrection for him. So, the references to the ‘fiery Gehenna’ have the same meaning as ‘the lake of fire’ of Revelation 21:8, namely, destruction, “second death.”

NICK, considering the “soul” mentioned in that verse to mean a person’s life prospects is not really “wiggling out of the problem,” as you say in a previous post. “The problem” as I see it, is we have a truckload of scriptures that say one thing about the soul and this scripture which people want to take to mean something else. The problem is what do you do with all those other scriptures? How do you refashion each of them to fit in with your understanding of Matthew 10:28? That is indeed a problem.

I say this again: Since numerous times, the word “soul” is used to mean the life of a person (Some examples: Ge 35:18; Ex 4:19; 21:23; 30:12; Jos 9:24; Jg 9:17; 12:3; 18:25; 2Ki 7:7; 2Ch 1:11; Job 2:4; 6:11; Pr 1:18; 7:23; 22:23; 25:13:Mt 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; Lu 12:20; Joh 10:15; 13:38; 15:13; Ac 20:10; Ro 16:4; Php 2:30; 1Th 2:8; Jas 1:21; 1Pe 1:22,25; 1Jo 3:16), then why is it such a leap for you to understand this verse to mean the future life of a person? It’s true, this is the only place in the Bible that it is used in exactly that way, but it is so frequently used to mean the life of a person that it should not be a hard thing to understand it to mean the life prospects of a person.
Such a view is the only one that has ‘no problems.’ Such a view is the only one that doesn’t contradict many many other scriptures. Such a view is the only one that fits the rest of the Bible.

After saying the words in Mat 10:28, Jesus next encourages his disciples with an illustration that highlights Jehovah’s loving care for them. “Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value?” he asks. “Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Therefore have no fear: you are worth more than many sparrows.”
I think this very nicely highlights where our hope should be placed. Not in the “immortal soul” teaching, or any teaching that contradicts the rest of the Bible. Where is the safest place in the universe, dead or alive? It's Jehovah’s memory. He knows the stars by name. The hairs on your head are numbered. As the creator of the universe we should put our trust in him to bring us back to life, to resurrect us, rather than trusting Greek philosophy or Babylonish teachings.

David.

Hi david,
There is another view of gehenna that Jesus referred to in Mark 9.42-48. It reminds us of the rubbish tip ouitside of Jerusalem.
Is 66.24
“Then they shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind”

October 27, 2005 at 7:40 am#9912

Participant

THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
–HOW DOES THIS STORY COMPARE WITH WHAT THE REST OF THE BIBLE TEACHES ABOUT THE SOUL, SCRIPTURES SUCH AS:
“The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4, 20)
“As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

HOW OFTEN DOES THE BIBLE SAY JESUS USED ILLUSTRATIONS OR PARABLES?
MATTHEW 13:34-35
“All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them; that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations, I will publish things hidden since the founding.””

It may be mentioned that the illustrations, although drawn from life and natural things, did not necessarily take place in actuality. Although some illustrations begin with expressions such as: “Once upon a time,” “A man had,” “There was a man,” “A certain man was,” or similar phrases, they were devised by the speaker under influence of God’s spirit and were what they are called—illustrations, or parables. (Jg 9:8; Mt 21:28, 33; Lu 16:1, 19)
Of Jesus Christ it is said: “All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them.”—Mt 13:34; Mr 4:33, 34.

Luke 16:19-31–The context and the wording of the story of the rich man and Lazarus show clearly that it is a parable and not an actual historical account. Poverty is not being extolled, nor are riches being condemned. Rather, conduct, final rewards, and a reversal in the spiritual status, or condition, of those represented by Lazarus and by the rich man are evidently indicated. The fact that the rich man’s brothers rejected Moses and the prophets also shows that the illustration had a deeper meaning and purpose than that of contrasting poverty and the possession of riches.

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.
What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

The language throughout the account is plainly parabolic and cannot be construed literally in view of all the preceding texts.
The setting, in Luke 16:14, 15, shows that the money-loving Pharisees were listening and sneering. But Jesus told them: “You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts; because what is lofty among men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight.”
The “purple and linen” in which the rich man was decked out were comparable to garb worn only by princes, nobles, and priests. (Es 8:15; Ge 41:42; Ex 28:4, 5) They were very costly. Hades, where this rich man is said to have gone, is the common grave of dead mankind. That it cannot be concluded from this parable that Hades itself is a place of blazing fire is made clear at Revelation 20:14, where death and Hades are described as being hurled INTO “the lake of fire.” The death of the rich man and his being in Hades must therefore be figurative, figurative death being mentioned elsewhere in the Scriptures. (Lu 9:60; Col 2:13; 1Ti 5:6) So the fiery torment was experienced while he was figuratively dead but actually alive as a human. Fire is used in God’s Word to describe his fiery judgment messages (Jer 5:14; 23:29), and the work done by God’s prophets in declaring his judgments is said to ‘torment’ those who oppose God and his servants.—Re 11:7, 10.
Lazarus is a Grecianized form of the Hebrew name Eleazar, which means “God Has Helped.” The dogs that licked his sores were apparently scavengers that roamed the streets and were viewed as unclean. Lazarus’ being in the bosom position of Abraham indicates that he was in a position of favor (compare Joh 1:18), this figure of speech being drawn from the practice of reclining at meals in such a way that one could lean back on the bosom of a friend. (joh 13:23-25)
Guests reclined on their left side with a pillow supporting their left elbow, leaving the right arm free. Usually three persons occupied each couch, but there could be as many as five. The head of each one would be on or near the breast, or bosom, as it were, of the person behind him. The person with no one at his back was considered in the highest position and the one next to him in the second place of honor. In view of the nearness of the guests to one another, it was the custom that friend be placed next to friend, which made it rather easy to engage in confidential conversation if desired. To be in such a bosom position of another at a banquet was indeed to occupy a special place of favor with that one. So the apostle John, whom Jesus dearly loved, “was reclining in front of Jesus’ bosom,” and in such a position he “leaned back upon the breast of Jesus” and privately asked him a question at the celebration of the last Passover.—Joh 13:23, 25; 21:20.
For these reasons John, in describing the very special position of favor enjoyed by Jesus, said that he was in “the bosom position” of his Father Jehovah. Likewise, in Jesus’ illustration, Lazarus was carried to “the bosom position” of Abraham, denoting that this beggar finally came into a position of special favor with one who was his superior.

October 27, 2005 at 7:44 am#9913

Participant

Quote

Note what this scripture says. Now note what it doesn't say.

I have a question Nick. What do you make of all those scriptures that say the soul can die, be killed, be destroyed, etc, etc, etc. What is your take on them?
And secondly, what do you regard the soul to be. I've a few times stated explicitly what I believe it is. Thankyou.

david.

October 27, 2005 at 9:04 am#9914

Participant

Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2005,08:40)

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?

Hi david,
I have seen many understandings of this parable. The main message from most teachers is that it is not true. The detailed description of Hades-the remand prison for sinners in comparison with the “bosom of Abraham” for those who inherit life- is decried as fanciful and allegorical.

I prefer to believe that the Son of God who said he is the Way, the TRUTH, and the life is revealing truth here and we should learn from him and not deny his words. Certainly these words challenge traditional views of many things but as Peter said

” To whom else can we go? You have the words of eternal life”

What then do you make of the claim of Jesus Christ that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood? Such statements were made deliberately and with deep meaning but they caused many of his disciples to not walk with him any further.

It perhaps is better to turn away than deny his words, and say we walk with him? As usual the lack is found in us and not in his words.

October 27, 2005 at 9:06 am#9915

Participant

Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2005,08:44)

Quote

Note what this scripture says. Now note what it doesn't say.

david.

Hi david,
Man looks at himself as physical.
God looks at us as living souls.

October 27, 2005 at 1:36 pm#9916

Participant

I don't argue with scripture. Even though I've read that scripture many times, guess I never paid much attention to it. How did that slip by me!

October 27, 2005 at 2:27 pm#9919

Participant

i DON'T KNOW HOW THIS QUOTE ENDED UP HERE BUT IT WASN'T MENT FOR THIS TOPIC. DIDN'T MEAN TO INTERUPT THE “CONVERSATION”.

October 29, 2005 at 2:48 am#9923

Participant

“God looks at us as living souls.” Yes Nick, I suppose he would, for that is what we are. Adam “came to be a living soul,” the scripture says. But I'm wondering what is meant by “living soul.” Well. No, I know what this particular verse says. What I'm wondering is what is your end all complete definition of the word “soul” as you understand it from scripture.
Kenrch, I talk to anyone who is interested in spiritual things. What would you like to talk about? I've just been gone for a day or two. So, this friend of yours that's a witness of Jehovah, what have you talked about with him? How do you view this friend?

david.

October 29, 2005 at 6:44 am#9925

Participant

Quote

The breath of God animated man and made him a living soul[inner man]. The breath of God animated animals.The source of their life is identical.

A couple of pages ago, you stated the above, Nick.
I'm wondering what you think this breath of God is. Do you think it's the spirit that man was given? Was the giving of this breath of God (spirit) what made him a living soul? How do you view this spirit?

What is your definition of the spirit that was given man?

david

October 29, 2005 at 7:33 am#9926