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Quote (Rudy @ April 16 2005,02:58) Correction: The 144,000 are the first fruits of the wheat harvest to Yahweh, for they are before the throne:
Rev. 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Rev. 12:13-17 is where they flee seeing the abomination of desolation. Some believe to the ancient city Petra.
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Hi Rudy,
I noted before a difference in this scripture with mine and wonder if there is a translation fault
Rev 14.1
” ….and with him 144,000, having HIS NAME and THE NAME OF HIS FATHER , written on their foreheads” I think it is important perhaps reflecting that they are Messianic Jews?ps Wherever thy are kept they are safe from the assaults of Satan as Rev 12.6 shows. Is Petra safe enough?
I got my scriptures mixed up, these are the Messianic Jews (144,000 sealed) and are before the throne worshipping Yahweh and are the firstfruits of the Jews to Him.
The others fleeing the abomination are in Rev. 12:5-6, notice her (Isreal) Child Yeshua was caught up to God and to his throne, then back to present time, the woman Isreal fled into the wilderness for the second half of the tribulation.
Matt. 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
1 Corinthians 15:20 – But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2005,03:52) ps Wherever thy are kept they are safe from the assaults of Satan as Rev 12.6 shows. Is Petra safe enough?
With the hand of the Lord protecting them they are, wherever they flee to.Here is a link to Petra. Side note, this is where the final scenes of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade were filmed, incase you thought you recognize it.
In genesis does it say man became a living soul (living being) or does it say man became a spirit being (spirit soul). Can one exchange the word spirit for the word living? Are these equivalents as are the words soul and being are? Is the equation of our makeup: body(A) +spirit (B) = living soul  or is it body(A) + spirit(B) = spirit(B)soul�
Here is King David's hope: “And I – in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness.” Psalms 17:15.
As a side note, the personal pronoun I is used. I would think this would mean the being of King David.
Quote (Rudy @ April 14 2005,18:32) The enire passage of John 14 is talking about going to the cross, shedding His blood, making atonement in the heavenly tabernacle, and rising from the grave and appearing to them after His resurrection. This is not speaking of the end of the church age.
In His Fathers house are many mansions, they're already built, Jesus is going to prepare the way, His Blood!Oddly enough, the disciples didn't get it either, that is not until they saw Him alive on the third day! For the shehpard was smitten and the sheep scattered.
But, they were brought back together after His resurrection!
John 16:16 “A little while, and you will see me no more; again a little while, and you will see me.” 17 Some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, 'A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me'; and, 'because I go to the Father'?” 18 They said, “What does he mean by 'a little while'? We do not know what he means.” 19 Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him; so he said to them, “Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, 'A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me'? 20 Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. 21 When a woman is in travail she has sorrow, because her hour has come; but when she is delivered of the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a child is born into the world. 22 So you have sorrow now, but I will see you again and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. 23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name. 24 Hitherto you have asked nothing in my name; ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full. 25 “I have said this to you in figures; the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures but tell you plainly of the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name; and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father. 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and going to the Father.” 29 His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly, not in any figure! 30 Now we know that you know all things, and need none to question you; by this we believe that you came from God.” 31 Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? 32 The hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, every man to his home, and will leave me alone; yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me. 33 I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Hi Rudy,
Your reply is very good. It gives me a different perspective on Jesus's going to prepare a place for us. Tell me your view on what John 14:3 means.Does anyone find these comparisons interesting?
Mark 13:14-16
When you see the abomination of desolation standing where it does not belong-let the reader understand-then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.”Luke 21:20-22
When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know trhat its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Jedea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of fulfillment of all that has been written.”Daniel 9:26
“After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood. War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.The holy Spirit is dealing with me on this, let me get back to you. Obedience is better than sacrifice.
NASB
John 14:1″Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2″In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3″If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4″And you know the way where I am going.” 5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.NIV
John 14:1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.” 5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”World English Bible ( http://www.ebible.org/bible/hnv/ )
John 14:1 “Don’t let your heart be troubled. Believe in God. Believe also in me. 14:2 In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you. 14:3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also. 14:4 Where I go, you know, and you know the way.” 14:5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 14:6 Yeshua said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me. 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him.”1) “in my Father's house (Gr. oikia)” is a refference to the abode of the Father, heaven. It does not refer to a literal house or The New Jerusalem, but rather the abode of the heavenly Father.
2) “many mansions (Gr. mone)” to dwell: live as a resident; reside. To exist in a given place or state: dwell in joy. is translated “abode” in v.23:
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode (Gr. mone) with him.3) To go and prepare a place for us is to make us acceptable, or welcomed without sin.
4) John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
To receive us unto Himself is to be one with Him as He is with the Father, and have the Holy Spirit in us, not just with us. reff. 14:17
That we abide in the Vine and the Vine in the Husbandman. John 15
There is no context relating to the end times in these verses.
We MUST come to the Father through the Son in this life, otherwise we have no life.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Quote (Guest @ April 16 2005,10:10) In genesis does it say man became a living soul (living being) or does it say man became a spirit being (spirit soul). Can one exchange the word spirit for the word living? Are these equivalents as are the words soul and being are? Is the equation of our makeup: body(A) +spirit (B) = living soul © or is it body(A) + spirit(B) = spirit(B)soul©?
Hi greg,
Gen 2.7
“Then the Lord God formed man[body] from the dust of the ground”=outer man
” And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living[spirit] being[soul]”=inner man.The word “living” is the same used for the “living God” but also all “living creatures”
1Cor 15.45
” The first man, Adam, became a living soul
The last Adam[Jesus]became a life giving spirit”We all have access to the water in the well in Eccles 12 till the rope breaks. Before then we need to receive the fountain of life giving water rising up to eternity in the one who is the life giving spirit.
Quote (Guest @ April 16 2005,10:51) Does anyone find these comparisons interesting? Mark 13:14-16
When you see the abomination of desolation standing where it does not belong-let the reader understand-then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.”Luke 21:20-22
When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know trhat its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Jedea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of fulfillment of all that has been written.”Daniel 9:26
….The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood. War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
Dan 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”Dan. 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to the one that spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the continual burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled under foot?” 14 And he said to him, “For two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Quote (Rudy @ April 15 2005,11:54) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 15 2005,06:42) Rudy, NH
My take on John 14:2,3.John 14
2 “In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.cf.
Isa 26
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed and will no longer cover her slain.Compared it with Isa 26:20,21 and it seems to suggest there is a hiding place the church will retreat to until the indignation (great tribulation) runs its course. It makes sense to me that since we will eat in our resurrection bodies we will also do other activities like resting (hence the rooms). Although, I don't believe we will need to do it.
Is. 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
2 Thess. 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Rev. 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
When the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the third temple the 144,000 are instructed to flee and not look back, remember
Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.We are not to be protected, the 144,000 are. We won't be there. This is the promise God made to Abraham, this is the Jewish remnant that will be saved to and enter into God's rest, the true sabbath (millenium).
Hi Rudy,
The 144,000 are not instructed to flee but ALL who are living in Judea surely?Those instructed to flee are the mother of the Child, Israel. Rev. 12:1-6
I suppose anyone left in the city with any sense of righteousness would flee along with them. I can only imagine the horror, for the Bowl (vial) judgements are about to be poured out and this is when it really gets bad.
Yes I agree. Anyone who loved the WORD would know but will the Jews know as it is in the New Testament?
I would think so by this time, the rabbis read Daniel also and would have to realize their error. They expect Messiah to come and establish His kingdom, they are not expecting the judgement, however with the two witnesses and the 144,000 sealed it would be hard for them not to understand. Although “strong delusion” would easily prevent a large majority from leaving. They will believe the “man of sin” has conquered when he kills the two witnesses. I beleive that to be the “strong delusion”.
Their own countrymen (unrighteous) will hate the reinstitution of the blood sacrifices, animal right activists who put the life of animals above man will help promote the abolition of them. The world will think the sacrifices resemble a cult and that it is not politically correct in today's modern society.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2005,22:28) Quote (Guest @ April 16 2005,10:10) In genesis does it say man became a living soul (living being) or does it say man became a spirit being (spirit soul). Can one exchange the word spirit for the word living? Are these equivalents as are the words soul and being are? Is the equation of our makeup: body(A) +spirit (B) = living soul © or is it body(A) + spirit(B) = spirit(B)soul©?
Hi greg,
Gen 2.7
“Then the Lord God formed man[body] from the dust of the ground”=outer man
” And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living[spirit] being[soul]”=inner man.The word “living” is the same used for the “living God” but also all “living creatures”
1Cor 15.45
” The first man, Adam, became a living soul
The last Adam[Jesus]became a life giving spirit”We all have access to the water in the well in Eccles 12 till the rope breaks. Before then we need to receive the fountain of life giving water rising up to eternity in the one who is the life giving spirit.
ps James 2.26
“For just as the body without the Spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead”So man as first formed was dead.
Also the spirit gives life. When the spirit leaves and returns to God the body rots and the soul sleeps in the earth.
Hi,
We all have to care for the outer man, the body. It is necessary to stay alive to minister to the needs of the flesh so we cannot ignore him.Eph 5.29″… for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes it and cherishes it”
It is just that the flesh cannot be allowed rule by it's lusts as they are destructive to our soul but they must be tamed. God provides for our bodily needs if we seek his will.
” Make no provision for the flesh”So do we live by the soul? Are we “intellectuals” controlled by our minds or are we driven by our emotions-fear, depression or anxiety?
No we live by the Spirit if we have yet received that gift. We submit all to the will of God which the Spirit knows, and let the Spirit rule. We walk not by sight but by faith. We walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5.25
” If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit”Hi Rudy,
Thankyou for getting back with me on John 14. I have to say that I think you are correct on how you see what Jesus is telling us here.
Is is possibly that maybe there could be a double meaning to these verses. I say this based on the folowing texts:Hebrews 11:16 – “Instead, they were longing for a better country – a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.”
Rev. 21:2 – “I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.”
Matthew 24:31 – “And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
I Thess. 4:16-18 – “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven , with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore, encourage each other with these words.”
Here is another thought on King Davids view of death:
Psalms 6:5: No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave?
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