- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2005,22:03) Hi Rudy,
I largely agree. Did Yeshua return to the Father prior to his resurrection?
John 20:17 – Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.This would indicate not, but this is physical, I don't know of any scripture that would indicate that He did Spiritually prior to this.
Hi Rudy,
I would agree that he did not as we have no evidence he did prior to his ascension.There is that mysterious scripture in 1Peter 3 18-19.I have also heard the same teaching that He was in Hades (lower parts of the earth) during the entire 3 days before the resurrection.
Good ref. to 1 Peter 3:18-19. I had forgotten about that one!
Here is a link to a teaching on the rejection of Soul Sleep. I have yet to read it all and search the scriptures in depth:
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2005,22:06) ps
Was it the place that was made habitable for us or could we not receive our new bodies till he did so we could be made in his likeness [man from heaven-1cor15]in this way at the first resurrection?
Both, but we must wait for the glorified body as did the souls under the altar in Rev.6:9Sure Rudy,
But what does Jesus do to make it habitable? Perhaps I am stupid? Since all creation is through Jesus perhaps he needed to be there for some new creation to be formed?Hi Rudy,
Perhaps this relates;
1 Cor 2 .9
” Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard and which have not entered the heart of man,all that God has prepared for those that love Him”Was Paul expressing what he had seen and heard in his visit to paradise in 2 cor 12?
He alone reconciled us to Yahweh by His sacrifice and atonement of our sins. Without Christ we cannot come to the Father, No man can come to the Father but by Him!
Rudy, NH
My take on John 14:2,3.John 14
2 “In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.cf.
Isa 26
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed and will no longer cover her slain.Compared it with Isa 26:20,21 and it seems to suggest there is a hiding place the church will retreat to until the indignation (great tribulation) runs its course. It makes sense to me that since we will eat in our resurrection bodies we will also do other activities like resting (hence the rooms). Although, I don't believe we will need to do it.
Intersting Is,
It reminds me of the instructions when we pray.
Mt 6.6
” But when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your father, who sees what is done in secret will reward you”
Any connection?Hi Is,
You might be right, but it may suggest that we are to be protected through the tribulation in our cocoon of prayer so that the wheat shines out as the tares are removed? The blood on the lintel protected the Israelites from the angel of death. Could this be that same as in Ps 91?Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 15 2005,06:42) Rudy, NH
My take on John 14:2,3.John 14
2 “In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.cf.
Isa 26
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed and will no longer cover her slain.Compared it with Isa 26:20,21 and it seems to suggest there is a hiding place the church will retreat to until the indignation (great tribulation) runs its course. It makes sense to me that since we will eat in our resurrection bodies we will also do other activities like resting (hence the rooms). Although, I don't believe we will need to do it.
Is. 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
2 Thess. 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Rev. 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
When the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the third temple the 144,000 are instructed to flee and not look back, remember
Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.We are not to be protected, the 144,000 are. We won't be there. This is the promise God made to Abraham, this is the Jewish remnant that will be saved to and enter into God's rest, the true sabbath (millenium).
Hi Rudy,
The 144.000 are Israelites.
Those who flee from Jerusalem are Jews too in the time of Jacob's trouble.
The “elect” I would assume would be those saved through the tribulation or do you think it is all in Christ?Quote (Rudy @ April 14 2005,23:47) I have also heard the same teaching that He was in Hades (lower parts of the earth) during the entire 3 days before the resurrection. Good ref. to 1 Peter 3:18-19. I had forgotten about that one!
Here is a link to a teaching on the rejection of Soul Sleep. I have yet to read it all and search the scriptures in depth:
Hi Rudy,
This linked teaching makes no mention of what is a very strong teaching of the OT-Sheol or the Pit. Sheol is mentioned about 75 times in the bible and in 6 of those it is an abode of the soul and two the life whoile many speak of it as the destiny of the whole person. The body rots away but the soul remains. One speaks of a 'bed' in Sheol.The pit has a variety of meanings of course from sheol to a simple hole in the ground such as Joseph was flung into by his brothers. Of the many times it is used I reckon about 31 speak of sheol and again 6 mention it as the destiny of the soul.
So any discussion of the fate of the soul after death must surely include something that is spoken of over 100 times in the bible surely?
Having spoken of the tripartite nature of man the author then speaks of the return of the spirit of Stephen to Jesus as if it is the being of Stephen, his soul.
Dan 12 is quoted v1f
” …And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time, and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book will be rescued. Many who sleep in the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt”That seems to speak of the Jewish people[your people], Jacob's trouble and their rescue as it Rev 12.6, but perhaps covers the rapture and first resurrection too. The last verse clearly refers to the second resurrection and judgement of the sheep and goats where some are saved and some lost.The reason it does not say all would be that some have already risen.
What do you think?
I'm at work now and won't have time to go through it all in detail 'till this evening. However, I believe John miraculously experienced the “rapture” of the church at the beginning of the tribulation in Rev. 4:1
John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. 20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? 21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? 24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
Compare rapture of John in Rev. 4 to the two witnesses:
Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and lo, in heaven an open door! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up hither, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and lo, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne!
John was already receiving the vision about the churches in Rev. chs. 1-3, so this is a definite change from a vision to a changing of position to the very throne of Yahweh.
Rev. 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Hi Rudy,
Yes I agree they are very similar. Pre trib in your view?
But do you think the two witnesses represent the worldwide evangelisation in the first half of the tribulation[7yrs] and the rapture mid trib?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2005,21:03) Hi Rudy,
Yes I agree they are very similar. Pre trib in your view?
But do you think the two witnesses represent the worldwide evangelisation in the first half of the tribulation[7yrs] and the rapture mid trib?
1) Pre-Trib.2) No, I do not.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
The Jews correctly believe the same. And it will happen. John the Baptist had the spirit of Elija but he wasn't Elija himself. That's why I believe Yahweh took him, and Enoch, that they may come back and witness to Jew and Gentile in the last days and be martyred for their testimony.
They will prophesy the opening of the seals and Judgement of God on a sinful and sin-loving world and the world will hate them and do all they can to kill them. Those who do repent will more than likely loose their life for their faith, thus the multitude under the altar.
Correction:
The 144,000 are the first fruits of the wheat harvest to Yahweh, for they are before the throne:
Rev. 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Rev. 12:13-17 is where they flee seeing the abomination of desolation. Some believe to the ancient city Petra.
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
