The soul

Participant

Ok, obviously, I had a problem with the quotes there. Hope it's not too confusing.

August 28, 2006 at 10:25 pm#26256

Participant

I understand completely. As for God having anything to do with something unclean, are you referring to the witch?

David, Saul is the reason that God permitted Samuel to appear. It had nothing to do with the witch. David, your conception of God is so small. He is God. He is infinite, eternal, everlasting. He is without end or beginning. Do you think there is anything he cannot do?

August 28, 2006 at 10:54 pm#26264

Participant

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I understand completely. As for God having anything to do with something unclean, are you referring to the witch?

I'm refering to this:

DEUTERONOMY 18:9-12
“…You must not learn to do according to the detestable things of those nations. There should not be found in you . . . anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah.”
LEVITICUS 19:31
“Do not turn yourselves to the spirit mediums, and do not consult professional foretellers of events, so as to become unclean by them.”

What was this spirit medium doing?
What do these scriptures say?

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David, your conception of God is so small. He is God. He is infinite, eternal, everlasting. He is without end or beginning. Do you think there is anything he cannot do?

He cannot lie, Heiscoming. The Bible says this. He “cannot lie.” (titus 1:2)
And he cannot be “unclean.” He is the definition of cleanliness. He is what cleanliness is measured by. He cannot be unclean. It is completley out of character. Consulting spirit mediums, Jehovah veiws as “detestable” and “unclean.” Please read the scriptures above.
I do not put limits on God. But I do understand that Jehovah hates certain things. And that he views certain things as “detestable” and “unclean.”

I am not limiting God. Just listening to what the bible says about him and how he feels about spiritism.

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David, Saul is the reason that God permitted Samuel to appear.

If it had nothing to do with the witch, as you say, why did he have to go to the witch. He apparently was trying everything else.
“Although Saul would inquire of Jehovah, Jehovah never answered him, either by dreams or by the Úrim or by the prophets.” (28:6)
Saul had slipped away. He had become unfaithful. At one time, he removed the spirit mediums. Now, he was actually resorting to go see one, a practice that he knew God condemned. God would not answer him the other ways.

IF HE WOULD NOT ANSWER HIM THESE OTHER WAY, WHY OH WHY WOULD GOD USE A PRACTICE HE HIMSELF CONDEMNS TO COMMUNICATE WITH HIM?

AND WHY OH WHY, WOULD GOD'S PROPHET SAMUEL EITHER LIE, OR BE WRONG ABOUT HIS PREDICTION?
(Unless it wasn't Samuel?)

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Do you think there is anything he cannot do?

I think he cannot lie. (the Bible.)
I think he cannot be unjust, or unfair, or unkind, or unloving, etc.
I similarly think that he cannot break his own councel.
If God's word condemns consulting a spirit mediums, why would he use THIS METHOD to speak to Saul, when he was determined not to use any other method, any proper method?

Also, H, I noticed you didn't answer any of the questions I asked you in the previous post. Why is that?

August 28, 2006 at 11:02 pm#26266

Participant

Then believe what the bible says. If the scriptures say that it was Samuel, why do you continue to argue. You are not arguing with me, but with the Holy Writ.

As for what Saul did, it was wrong, but as to the purpose to why God called for Samuel to appear to Saul, it was to do his will. For Samuel gave warning to Saul as according to the will of God. And then he returned to the place from whence he came.

August 28, 2006 at 11:07 pm#26269

Participant

Please answer any of my questions. Anything. You say I am arguing with the holy writings. But it is I who have repeatedly quoted from them.
It is you who are closing your eyes to them, so that you can retain your belief. Yes, I know it says “Samuel.”

Heiscoming, you never answered my question to you:
Are you worth more than a moth in God's eyes?

August 28, 2006 at 11:13 pm#26270

Participant

Yes

August 28, 2006 at 11:17 pm#26274

Participant

Are you sure?

Would you consider yourself one of God's servants?

August 28, 2006 at 11:31 pm#26279

Participant

What did Jesus say about the birds and the flowers? Then what did he say about how much more God cares about man?

David, you ask about a moth and yet you question the validity of God's Word when it says that Samuel appeared unto Saul. You twist the words around making claims that just because is says Samuel said, it does not mean it was really Samuel. If the Word of God says it was Samuel, then it was Samuel. And there are other scriptures supporting that there was a place called the bosom of Abraham.

August 29, 2006 at 1:58 am#26293

malcolm ferris

Participant

David

I have read that earlier posting you mentioned as well as this latest one and have a few comments as follows:

You mention that Saul said he 'perceived' that this was Samuel and go on to give some explanation as to this words meaning to which I would addd

The greek word translated as percieved in the KJV (yada' {yaw-dah'} ) means 'to know' and has a number of possible other meanings but primarily: 'to know'

Regarding the sequence of events described in this story, we find that the woman see the spirit of Samuel, but Saul seems unable to. Also the spirit speaks with Saul and he is able to hear him it would seem, and the woman is out of the picture at this point…

—In Rabbinical Literature:
While in the Biblical account the woman remains anonymous, the rabbinical Midrash maintains that she was Zephaniah, the mother of Abner (Yalk, Sam. 140, from Pirke R. El.). That a supernatural appearance is here described is inferred from the repeated emphasis laid on the statement that Samuel had died and had been buried (I Sam. xxv. 1, xxviii. 3), by which the assumption that Samuel was still living when summoned, is discredited (Tosef., Sotah, xi. 5). Still he was invoked during the first twelve months after his death, when, according to the Rabbis, the spirit still hovers near the body (Shab. 152b). In connection with the incidents of the story the Rabbis have developed the theory that the necromancer sees the spirit but is unable to hear his speech, while the person at whose instance the spirit is called hears the voice but fails to see; bystanders neither hear nor see (Yalk., l.c.; Redak and RaLBaG's commentaries). The outcry of the woman at the sight of Samuel was due to his rising in an unusual way—upright, not, as she expected, in a horizontal position (comp. LXX. ὄρϑιον in verse 14).
(from The Jewish Encyclopaedia .com)

So according to the writings of the Rabbis a necromancer (one who communes with the dead – that would be the witch of Endor) can see the spirit they are communicating with, but cannot hear what they are saying. And the one who they are communication on behalf of (that would be Saul) cannot see the spirit but can hear their voice. And those standing by do not either hear or see anything.

You also have some criticism of the prophecy that Samuel gives Saul – saying it was not accurate…

The word translated tomorrow in the KJV can also mean 'in the near future' – which is therefore accurate.
The words of Samuel were NOT –

“tomorrow you and ALL of your sons – it was – in the near future you and more than one of your sons will die and be where I am.

BTW David where is the scriptures that tells of a surviving son of Saul? I was unaware of this.

You also posed this question:

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Does dying somehow give a person the ability to fortell the future?

Saul was a prophet and remained a prophet – prophets speak for God to foretell future events amongst other things.

We must be careful here not to paint King Saul in too favorable a light.
I do not believe that Saul ever sincerely sought to follow God or to know His will.
From the very outset of his selection – he was not the choice of God but of the people.
Based not upon what lay in his heart, but upon his physical stature and outward appearance.
At no time is any indication given that Saul ever was a man after God's own heart.
So we have to ask – just how earnestly did he pray – did he seek to know an answer – and how open was he to hear anything said to be from God – if it did not favor what he desired to hear?
So while it is true that Saul was the Lord's anointed (as David said) yet the inside was not changed one bit, he was merely anointed on the outside, but inward was full of corruption.
Yet he was God's anointed none the less, despite the fact that he tried to have David killed, that he ignored the voice of God through His prophet Samuel…
What was Saul thinking going to a witch to get endorsement from a dead prophet who had never really had anything good to say about him from the start? Who knows – clearly he never really had a single God-centered thought in him – so this appears to be a last ditch desperate attempt to get some kind of an answer from some source. We can probably never hope to understand the minds of those so misguided as to do such things.

You make a good point in quoting these verses in Isa 8:19-20 – what is God saying here?

“If you think that it is OK to go seeking God by trying to commune with the dead then be advised that it is NOT OK – this is not according to My Word and those who would suggest otherwise have no light in them!”

Did Saul have any light in him?
Did he prosper at the hand of the LORD as a result of his actions?
Does this not serve as an example to any who would think to make the same mistake?

To me it shows that even though he went to the wrong source to try to get the message (ie to Satan and not God) Yet for some reason (because he was the anointed of the LORD perhaps?…) He got the message from the right source anyway.

(Catholic Church take note – praying to dead saints is little more than a variant of ancestor worship and communing with the dead – there is one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus)

How successful did he really expect to be going to the enemy's counterfeit version of Samuel – to attempt to have an audience with Samuel – who would have been the witches arch-rival. Clearly he was messed up in the head and not thinking straight at all.

You say

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Therefore, when the account reads: “When the woman saw ‘Samuel’ she began crying out at the top of her voice,” it obviously recounts the eventAS VIEWED BY THE MEDIUM>,who was deceived by the spirit that impersonated Samuel. (1Sa 28:12)

What did she cry out? “why have you deceived me?…” she was upset at the way things were turning out here.

You also hinted at the fact that the translation of these verses and there rendering in the KJV were likely the result of uninspired transcribers
Consider this – the Peshitta translations which are all consistent (unlike many of the Greek manuscripts) translate these verses almost identically to that of the KJV – stating that it was Samuel who was speaking.

Then Saul said to his servants, Seek me a woman who has a familiar spirit, that I may go to her and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman who has a familiar spirit at Endor. And Saul disguised himself and put on other raiment, and he went and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and Saul said to her, Divine for me by the familiar spirit, and bring up for me him whom I shall tell you. And the woman said to him, Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has removed those who have familiar spirits and the wizards out of the land. Why then are you laying a snare for my life to cause me to be put to death? And Saul swore to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD lives, there shall no harm come upon you for this thing. Then the woman said, Whom shall I bring up to you? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and she said to Saul, Why have you deceived me? For you ar
e Saul. And the king said to her, Fear not; what do you see? And the woman said to Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said to her, What is their appearance? And she said to him, An old man is coming up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and made obeisance.
And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines are making war against me, and God has departed from me, and answers me no more although I have inquired by the prophets and also by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may tell me what I shall do. Then Samuel said to Saul, Why do you ask of me, seeing the LORD has departed from you, and now he is with your neighbor David? And the LORD has done to him, as he spoke by me; for he has rent asunder the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor David; Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not execute his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the LORD also shall deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
(Peshitta -Llamsa translation)

You quote Eclessiastes 9 to support the view that the dead have no conscious existence beyond the grave

In Genesis God Himself said – 'the voice of your brothers blood cries out to me from the earth…'
Jesus said – do not fear him who can kill the body but has no power to kill the soul – but him who has power to destroy both body and soul in hell.
In the book of revelation we read of a group of souls under the altar, these were killed in persecutions and do not have white robes at the time of being souls under the altar – they receive them at this time… (the time of the great tribulation when their fellow brethren the 144000 Jewish believers are to be killed as they were!)

In your second post you ask: Would God work hand-in-hand with a “witch”

Was He working hand in hand? The reaction of the witch would not suggest that this was the case….

You said:

Also, keep in mind that from the text itself (1 Samuel 28) there is no indication that this appearance was at the hand of God; NOWHERE does it suggest GOD did this, but rather that the WOMAN called him forth. One might perhaps ASSUME God did it, but such is NOT STATED … it is purely CONJECTURE on the part of interpreters.

By the same token and using the same rule of reasoning – NOWHERE does it suggest that the one summoned forth was anyone other than Samuel, but rather that it was Samuel – which is stated 4 times. One might perhaps ASSUME it was a demon, but such is NOT STATED … it is purely CONJECTURE on the part of the interpreter.

True there is no nowhere in this text to suggest this – but there is another example in 1 Kings of King Ahab who is actually being deceived and this is plainly declared to be the case. So if God is at all consistent in His ways and dealings with men, let alone with Kings, then he would have to make the episode in 1 Samuel plainly known as to what is going on. Or are we to assume that God is a respecter of persons – that He hated Saul more than he did Ahab and therefore dealt differently with him? I don't think so. Another incident in 1 Kings 20 involved a prophet who disguised himself and deceived King Ahab – this deception is also clearly stated. In fact any time that anyone was subject to deception I find the fact of the deception is stated in the Word of God, from Eden onwards.

God certainly had the power to raise up Samuel and send him to Saul at this time with a message, had He chosen to do so. There is no doubt about that. But did God do this? One may assume it, but one cannot prove it.

Satan certainly is capable of deceiving someone with a demon masquerading as the soul of one who is dead, if he chose to do so (and was permitted by God to do so…) There is no doubt about that. But did Satan do this? One may assume it, but one cannot prove it.

In other words it could be this way… or it could be that way… it is all conjecture and cannot be proven either way. Faith is faith, it is in that which cannot be seen clearly but in what God has promised, faith in His unchanging and unfailing Word, and in His faithfulness and ability to perform it.

Yes, it is certainly possible that God could have raised Samuel and sent him to Saul …. but it is odd, is it not, that the character said to be Samuel (in 1 Samuel 28:15) attributes the raising up of himself to Saul and this woman from Endor.

Saul AND this woman – Samuel does not mention the woman as being responsible at all.
Samuel did not say – why did you disturb me by calling me up and why are you seeking the dead among the living – why did you get this woman to call me up.
NO – it says – Saul told her to call up Samuel. And when Samuel appeared (it doesn't say she had done any calling yet – she may have appeared that very instant Saul had said those words for all we know…) when he appeared he said to Saul – not to the woman – not to them – but to Saul – why have you disturbed me.

Why didn't this apparition acknowledge that it was God who raised him up? This is more than a little puzzling.

You could just as well ask why did Jesus conceal his identity from those on the road to Emmaus? Why did he not tell them who he was and that God had raised him from the dead?… Of course his identity was later made known to them in the manner in which he broke the bread, upon which he vanished from their sight, why did he not give God the glory and tell them who he was and that God had raised him?…

Anyway TJMTCW

Blessings David

August 29, 2006 at 3:30 am#26296

Participant

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If the Word of God says it was Samuel, then it was Samuel.

And if the Word of God says that God has no faith in his servants and that they have no more value than a moth, then God has no faith in his servants and you are crushed as quickly as a moth, easily forgotten by God. (Job 4:18,19)

H, I get the feeling you didn't really know what I was talking about when I asked you the moth question. Yet, I spent some time on this before. I really don't think you actually read my posts.

Do you? (please answer at least this question, if you can't answer any of the others.)

Yes, Jesus used the expression, the “bosom of Abraham” in a PARABLE. He was helping us to understand something. And I'm not sure you know what. Why is it that those controversial scriptures such as 1 Samuel 28 need other controversial, misunderstood scriptures to back them up.
There are many clear scriptures in the Bible that speak of the soul. Yet, look where you go for your support.

david

August 29, 2006 at 3:56 am#26299

Participant

Hi david,
“Why is it that those controversial scriptures such as 1 Samuel 28 need other controversial, misunderstood scriptures to back them up”

Scripture is never controversial.
The lack is always in us
and in our preconceived doctrinal base.

August 29, 2006 at 9:53 am#26310

malcolm ferris

Participant

In Job 14 we see Job struggling with something – he can see that a man is cut off and goes to the grave much like the grass or the flower.
He sees that a tree speaks of resurrection – you cut it down and yet it will spring up again from the roots.
Job sees in all of this a kind of injustice – how can there be hope for a tree that is cut down and yet a man – who is made in God's image has no such hope?

Fast forward to Job 19 and we find Job suddenly gets a flash of light from on high.
Now in chapter 14 Job is relating what he observes with the natural senses.
But in chapter 19 he says – I know that my redeemer lives and though the skin worms destroy my body, yet in my flesh shall I see God and not another.
He has made a revolutionary jump from what he thought he knew by the senses of the flesh and his mind – to what he knows with absolute certainty by the Spirit of God.

So now he has gone from the idea – arrived at by his natural senses and his mind – that man goes into the ground and that is that.
To what he can see by revelation from God – that man is not finished when his body goes back to dust and corrupts but that his soul continues…

What did Jesus say? He who believes in me shall not taste death but is passed from death unto life.

Personally I don't think that this whole subject can be really understood unless you first see that death in the flesh is nothing more than separation from a body of the soul. The flesh is clearly referred to by Paul as a tabernacle, a temporary tent for us to get around with in this life. It is an unclean place until it is cleansed and set aside for His service, whereupon it becomes a temple for God.

At this point it becomes a shared dwelling place for both us and the Spirit of God. We have the day by day battle of overcoming the world by His Spirit, so that we must yield our will to His will, and allow Him to live in and through us to accomplish His purpose for us in our lives.

How is it that those who 'sleep' in Christ shall not die? Obviously death is more than just the passing of the flesh.
We are told by Paul that if this earthly accommodation of our flesh dissolves we have another waiting for us a spiritual body – so that we therefore do not face separation (death) – but have passed from this to life that can never be interrupted again.

When Paul says “we have another body waiting upon death” the WE he is referring to is the inner man – which is tabernacled in the outer flesh. The soul as we call it, this is the soul that if it sins shall surely die. This is the soul that Jesus spoke of saying “don't fear him who can kill the body but not the soul, but rather fear Him who can destroy both body AND soul in hell.”

IMHO

August 29, 2006 at 10:08 am#26311

Participant

amen

August 29, 2006 at 10:11 am#26312

Mercy

Participant

My uncle passed away this week. He was a man of God. He always pointed me towards truth and the scriptures. We would spend hours discussing scripture. He was a walking testamony to the faith. I know people who came to the Lord from just seeing my uncles example without even being witnessed to verbally.

I love my uncle very much. He is not “just my uncle”. We both felt a Father and Son relationship. He stepped in and was my mentor since my mother was divorced. I was very close to him. He has been so important to me my whole life. He truly was my earthly father. He is the best earthly man I have ever known. I am sure at least some of you have lost a very close person before. This is the closest and most personal loss I have ever had. I have never been this hurt by anything before.

This question of the soul has been eating at me for months as I watched him come to his end. He clearly believed he was going to heaven as soon as he died. I understand the concept of time not existing for the dead so in that sense he would be correct if the soul sleeps until resurrection.

I have always agreed with him until I did some studying on this issue as I watched his health decline. Now, I just don't know the answer. Both sides seem to have good points. I am slightly leaning towards the “soul sleep” teaching that David advocates. I did not share my studies with him, because I did not have a definative answer and I know that his peace rested on the belief of “not truly dieing”.

I haven't discussed any of this with my family, in particular my mother, who I know this would hurt. She is still pained by the memory of watching him gasp for breath, but She said she saw him smile as she watched him pass as she held his hand. Then she said that she had a vision of him dancing before the Lord with such Joy and Bliss. His body healed and his greying hair restored to the bright red it had always been. How can I even think of showing her the other interpretation?

This shouldn't bother me so much, but part of the peace that comes with letting a loved one go is that he is now with Jesus not in hell (sheol). Does this change my view on the ressurection as the Blessed Hope? Of course not! But it does goes pain that I did not expect to be going through right now.

At his funeral I heard people comforting one another by saying such things as:

“God called him home to be with him because he loved the Lord so much and God wanted his precious son with Him.”

“Jim is now dancing before the Lord and praising him with his wonderful voice.” (My uncle played guitar and sang for the Lord. He also was paralyzed from the waist down for the last 4 months of his life as the cancer broke his back. He fell at my house and his weakened vertabrae shattered.)

All of this is a lie if really my Uncle is a pile of ashes buried in a hole. (he was cremated) If he is not in heaven then for no reason did God call him home to be with him. He could be still be here on earth doing God's work. He won't get to heaven any faster than those he left behind so the idea of his death being a good thing or a celebration of some sort makes me sick.

Then to top it off. The day after the funeral my cousin discovered a song on one of my uncle's self recorded tapes that has this chorus that he was singing about himself. My cousin then rewound the tape and discovered at the beginning of the tape a prayer he was singing (he sometimes prayed with song) asking God to use these songs for His will and His purposes. This was recorded in 1981 when my uncle was the same age I am now.

“Good News!
Children of God never Die!
When I leave this jar of clay
Please don't cry…..
I'll be with Jesus…..
Somewhere in the sky!”

This hurts to think this song is not a reality. But the worst part is that I don't know which view is correct. I will just keep studying and praying and try not to let this consume me to much.

August 29, 2006 at 10:19 am#26313

Participant

Thank you Mercy,
May the Lord comfort your heart with His Love.

August 29, 2006 at 9:49 pm#26329

Participant

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Scripture is never controversial.

Hi Nick, if a scripture brings controversy, then I consider it controversial. You're right, they shouldn't be. John 1:1, for example. Much controversy.

My point was that there are 900 or so scriptures that use the word soul. 98% of them are extremely clear. Yet, you must pick from a parable to back up your beliefs, a parable that was not designed to tell us about the soul. That is not what the point of the parable was. Yet, that's where you must go to back up your beliefs.

I seriously think we should go through the Bible from front to back and cite every scripture where the word “soul” occurs.

david.

August 29, 2006 at 9:55 pm#26331

Participant

Hi david,
My soul quails within me at the thought.

August 29, 2006 at 9:59 pm#26332

Participant

Dear Mercy,

If your uncle was born again, and you said he was, then there is no doubt he is with Jesus. Jesus said that all who believe in him will never die. He was not referring to the flesh little sister, because we are face this death. So it has to be the spirit he was referring to and it was. So rejoice, for you uncle is with his Savior. Even though is fleshly body sleeps in the grave, his soul is alive in Christ.

August 29, 2006 at 10:11 pm#26333