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Quote Dear David, shall we do the doctrine dance. This is your chance to prove your religion? I have to warn you thou, I am starting out with 1 Samuel 28. This debate will be if the soul ceases to exist as proclaimed by the Jehovah witnesses or if when a man dies, his soul goes to heaven or hell as according to God's Holy Word. Now, David, I don't want to hear not garbage about this not really being Samuel that was called from the dead, because scripture plainly states it was him.
Heiscoming, I await your response to my post. (Please read it all.)
david.
Hi,
Matt 10 28
28″Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather (A)fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in (B)hell. “
Lk12.5
“But I will warn you whom to fear: (A)fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into (B)hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! “
So both these verses show that death is not the final end of a man. His spirit has returned to God but he still exists though not in an aware state till he is wakened.Hi david,
You quote.GENESIS 3:19
“In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.””But according toGen 2.7 man
was formed from the dust of the ground,
before being made a living being by the breath of God.
Gen 2.7
” 7Then the LORD God formed man of (A)dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and (B)man became a living being.”So the verse you quoted above relates to man as outer man, flesh of the dust, not his soul.
Hi david,
Ecc 12.7
“P 7then the (A)dust will return to the earth as it was, and the (B)spirit will return to ©God who gave it.”146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”
So what have these to do with the Soul which is not destroyed by death?
The first verse relate to the flesh and the spirit only and 1Thess tells us we are soul too.
Ps 146.34 indeed confirms the sleep of the soul but it is not destroyed.
Quote You quote.GENESIS 3:19
“In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.””But according toGen 2.7 man
was formed from the dust of the ground,
before being made a living being by the breath of God.
Gen 2.7
” 7Then the LORD God formed man of (A)dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and (B)man became a living being.”So the verse you quoted above relates to man as outer man, flesh of the dust, not his soul.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The word soul, “nephesh” I believe literally means something like “a breather,” or “one who breaths,” I think. So, yes, when God blew into his nostrils the breath of life, the man became a living soul. He became a living breather. He became a person.
Quote So the verse you quoted above relates to man as outer man, flesh of the dust, not his soul.
I'm not sure how you separate “outer man,” inner man. Is the spirit the inner man? Or is the breath of life something that animates and keeps alive a man? The man became a life or a soul, or a person (no, a “living” person.)I believe what I was saying about this scripture:
“In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.””
Is that Adam was made from dust. He was physically made from the earth. He would “return” to the earth when he died. The spirit or breath of life (life force) returns to the true God, who gave it. But in the Bible, consciousness is not associated with death, but rather, complete unconsciousness.PSALM 146:4
“His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.” (compare eccl 9: 5,10)
ECCLESIASTES 9:5
“For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.”ECCLESIASTES 9:10
“All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going.”Thoughts perishing. No wisdom, or work or devising or knowledge, or consciousness for the dead.
It sounds like ….Oh, I see in your next post, you quoted this verse.Quote 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”
So what have these to do with the Soul which is not destroyed by death?
Well, simply this. Some assert that at death, some part of the person, what they call the “soul” is conscious, basically, alive, even though the body dies. Yet, if a persons thoughts perish, etc, this doesn't seem true.What does this have to do with the soul which is not destroyed at death? you ask.
Remember, when Adam came to BE a living soul, after the spirit was put into him? So when adam died, we can say that Adam the soul died. Or, we could even say that his soul (life) was destroyed, in that he died. But the usual usage of the word soul in the Bible does not allow for the belief that the soul is a separate shadowy part of the person. It just doesn't.david.
Hi david,
You mix up physical life with existence.
When someone dies they exist but do not usually have awareness.
Otherwise Hades is a myth.
But Jesus taught us all about it in Lk 16 and showed that it is even possible to have awareness there too.” 19″Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20″And a poor man named Lazarus (S)was laid at his gate, covered with sores,21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22″Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to (T)Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23″In (U)Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24″And he cried out and said, '(V)Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in (W)this flame.'
25″But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that (X)during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27″And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house–
28for I have five brothers–in order that he may (Y)warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29″But Abraham said, 'They have (Z)Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30″But he said, 'No, (AA)father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31″But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'”
Semmy
Quote However, 1 Thessolonians 4:16 clearly teaches that upon Chirst's return, the DEAD IN CHRIST will rise first. Paul goes on to speak of a secret that we shall not all sleep in death but goes on to confirm that the final resurrection will occur in the twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trump. That would be the trumpet sounded at Christ's return so it dovetails with 1 Thess. 4:16. Dear Semmy,
I am glad you brought this up brother. Read this part of scipture carefully. Notice verse 14. This verse is saying that when Jesus comes, those who have died in Christ and who's bodies sleep that when Christ come, they will be with him. Now, if they are coming with him, what is it referring to? IT is referring to their souls. The souls of all who died in Christ will be with him when he comes on the day of resurrection. This makes sense, because they would have to be with him in order to join with their bodies that sleep in the grave. So the souls of the dead in Christ rise first, then those who are alive in the flesh will be caught up to meet them. Just as those who died in Christ were changed from corruptible to incorruptible, so will those who are caught up at the rapture.
1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Sorry David, your argument still holds no water.
12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
Hi
Job 14.5
“5Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;6Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.
7For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
8Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
9Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
16For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?
17My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.
18And surely the mountains falling cometh to nought, and the rock is removed out of his place.
19The waters wear the stones: thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest the hope of man.
20Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passeth: thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away.
21His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
22But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.”
Man has a soul within him. He dies, and he sleeps.
“Sorry David, your argument still holds no water.”
Well, H. What has changed? I'm still right, and you still haven't considered what I said.
Sorry H, but your belief contradicts scripture and creates impossible troubling questions. Sorry H, but you are wrong. Either that, or the Bible is wrong. I choose to believe that it is you who are wrong and that in this particular case, events are being looked at through the the eyes of the spirit medium.Saul had removed himself, far from God.
Realizing that he is abandoned by Jehovah God, he turns to witchcraft, which he had at the beginning banned from his kingdom.
YOU said that Saul “knew” it was Samuel. Well, your Bible says that Saul PERCEIVED that it was Samuel. He perceived this based completely on what the SPIRIT MEDIUM (a person whose actions are completely condemned by God as detestable) told him!!!!
Again, verse 13 and 14 SHOW THAT SAUL HIMSELF DID NOT SEE SAMUEL BUT ONLY assumed FROM THE DESCRIPTION GIVEN BY THE SPIRIT MEDIUM THAT SHE SAW SAMUEL.First, Heiscoming, your silence with regard to my questions speaks for itself.
To Nick and Heiscoming:
Are either of you worth more than a moth, in God's sight? Does God value you more highly than a moth? Simple question. These are your choices: “yes,” or “no.”
What do you think?
I ask you two this because Nick says things like:
Quote
Hi RR,
1 Sam 28
“12 When the woman saw Samuel …”
“14 And Saul knew that it was Samuel,…”
“15Then Samuel said to Saul..”
“16 Samuel said…”
“20…because of the words of Samuel;”Scripture does not deny it was Samuel
so why should we
if it is our guide to truth?And Heiscoming has no possible hope of even defending what he believes other than to repeatedly say the same: “It says samuel.” But he apparently can't answer any of the troubling questions this raises. And nor can Nick.
So, now that you've thought about it, “yes,” or “no.” Does God value you any more than a moth?
My question relates to whether “everything” the Bible says is without question true, or whether we should discern where the words come from. If this account is being told through the eyes of the witch of endor, a spirit medium who believes she is speaking with Samuel (when she clearly couldn't be) then must we believe that it is actually Samuel, if that were to create contradictions with the rest of the Bible?
Let's look at Job for a second. I, personally, think that God views his servants with more value than a moth. How did you answer? Let's look at Job.
JOB 2:11
“And three companions of Job got to hear of all this calamity that had come upon him, and they proceeded to come, each one from his own place, El′i·phaz the Te′man·ite and Bil′dad the Shu′hite and Zo′phar the Na′a·ma·thite. So they met together by appointment to come and sympathize with him and comfort him.”These three met to “comfort” him, the Bible says. But they were false comfortors. The advice and councel they offered were not comforting, but rather condemnatory and false. Let's look at chapter 4. Eliphaz starts it out. In verse 12, he starts talking about this vision he had, where “a spirit itself when passing over [his] face.” (v 15) In verse 18, speaking of God, this “spirit” says:
JOB 4:18-19
“Look! In his servants [human ones] he has no faith, And his messengers [angels] he charges with faultiness. How much more so with those dwelling in houses of clay [humans], Whose foundation is in the dust! One crushes them more quickly than a moth.”Now, I could take this verse, and close my eyes to the rest of the Bible and I would have a very wrong picture of God, even though this verse is a part of God's inspired Word. This verse and much of what Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar say, we do well to consider, because we are helped to understand what and who Job had to endure. But this statement above, which came from some “spirit,” we are told is wrong. If it was a spirit, it was not one of his dead ancestors, as the Bible says they are “conscious of nothing at all,” and that their thoughts have perished. And since what this spirit said was definitely wrong and meant to paint Jehovah as an uncaring, merciless God, it seems to not be an angel that delivered this message. It seems it would have to be a demon. Demons tend to give false information. Kind of like with that Samuel account. Yes, it's not hard for them to watch humans and know a thing or two about what we are like, so as to imitate us. Spirit mediumship is called “detestable,” by Jehovah. It was something that was forbiddden. Why? (nevermind. I know you won't answer it.)
And I don't think my comparison of Jehovah being called a Rock several places in the Bible was out of line. If someone who is unreasonable and doesn't know too much about the Bible only sees one of those scriptures, they might well say: “It says he's a rock. Case closed.” MIND CLOSED. If what you believe is true, why not answer some of those questions I asked? If believing that it was actually Samuel disagrees with so much of the rest of the Bible and with common sense, and it creates a great deal of other contradictions, perhaps, you should look at and re-read what I said. I'm still not certain Heiscoming has read what I wrote, as I haven't seen a response to anything I said.
Does God have “no faith” in his servants? No faith in you Nick and you Heiscoming? This IS what the scripture says. And this is what that “spirit” said. Of course, some spirits (demons) like to mislead. Satan's first lie: 'You won't die. Eat.' The demons continue this lie: You will never 'really' die.
If some are to be given the gift of immortality, then in what way could a part of them be immortal without being given this gift? Immortality is something that the Bible says is given, not something we are born with.So Heiscoming,
I guess that's it for the “game” you wanted to play with me. I thought we could actually have a conversation. I was looking forward to it.I will perhaps try to bring out the points of my argument in more clear, shorter statements.
I've decided to only consider this “Samuel” topic in this “soul” thread. I dislike speaking of the exact same thing at the same time in two threads. I just repeat myself.
I do remember that this started with H trying to prove from this account that the soul lives on after death. Interestingly, this account does use the word “soul” a couple of times. Let's look at them:
1 SAMUEL 28:9
“However, the woman said to him: “Here you yourself well know what Saul did, how he cut off the spirit mediums and the professional foretellers of events from the land. Why, then, are you acting like a trapper against my soul to have me put to death?””1 SAMUEL 28:21
“The woman now came to Saul and saw that he had been greatly disturbed. So she said to him: “Here your maidservant has obeyed your voice, and I proceeded to put my soul in my palm and obey the words that you spoke to me.”You'll notice H, that both of these uses of the word SOUL in this account where you are trying to prove the soul is immortal, use the word soul to mean: “life,” and not to mean some separte shadowing part of the person.
Sorry, H. But if you are right, please provide some explanation of what I stated in my post so all can see and understand.
david.
Saul died for being unfaithful to Jehovah, partly because he did this disgusting thing of consulting a spirit medium. (1 chron 10:13,14)
Jehovah had already cut off help to Saul. So this message from whoever or whatever was certainly not from Jehovah. (Plus, the message was inaccurate. So, it wasn't from God.)
This spirit medium, or witch, this woman of the black arts, was not a servant of Jehovah. What she practices was condemned as “detestable to Jehovah.” This person stood in oppostion to Jehovah.
So, is it possible for this person to call forth righteous dissembodied spirit beings from where they are? “Samuel” seemed to be interupted, or annoyed at being called up. So, does this mean that an unrighteous spirit medium has some control over righteous dead people? Can those serving Satan really yank a saved soul out of its spiritual repose? Do the wicked of this world have that kind of power?
Does Satan have power over the holy ones? Can Satan actually reach into Paradise and drag “souls” out of there for his own devious purposes?So she was not providing the nice cute service of letting the dead communicate with their loved ones. If our loved ones were alive in some spirit realm, then why would Jehovah not allow us to communicate with them? Why would he view it as detestable and “unclean.”
It's because Jehovah knows the truth and wants to protect us. The demons want to decieve us. They want to deceive us into believing that it doesn't matter what we do, good or bad, we will not really ever die.
But this is a lie.
I'd like to also quote from something I said earlier:
When Saul went to the medium, Jehovah’s spirit had for some time been removed from him, and in fact, God would not answer his inquiries by means of dreams or by the Urim (used by the high priest) or by the prophets. (1Sa 28:6) God would have no more to do with him; and God’s prophet Samuel had not seen Saul for a long period of time, from before David’s being anointed to be king. So IT IS UNREASONABLE TO THINK THAT SAMUEL, EVEN IF STILL ALIVE, WOULD NOW COME TO GIVE SAUL ADVICE. And God would certainly not cause Samuel, whom he had not sent to Saul before his death, to come back from the dead to talk to Saul.—1Sa 15:35.
We are told that “Although Saul would inquire of Jehovah, Jehovah never answered him, either by dreams or by the Úrim or by the prophets.” (28:6) Could Saul trick Jehovah by going about this another way to get some information from him through Samuel?Anyone?
Hi David
In your last two posts you do make some excellent points and raise some very good questions. Certainly it calls for deeper investigation on the whole topic.
I offer here a few thoughts of my own for what they may be worth…Let me begin by drawing our attention to the following verses :
Quote
I CORINTHIANS 14:32
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.ROMANS 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.Why do I bring up these verses? Let me try to explain
- Samuel was called to be a prophet before his mothers womb (Jer 1:5; Gal 1:15)
- Samuel is a prophet yet, he would have been one of those that Jesus brought with him on his glorious return to Heaven (Eph 4:8; Mt 27:52-3)
- Where would Samuel have been before this after his death? In the bosom of Abraham (Luke 16:23-30;Sam 28:19)
- Samuel showed himself to be the same prophet even from the dead – his words concerning Saul had not changed from what he had spoken on the earth (1 Sam 15:28; 1 Sam 28:17-18)
Look at these words that Micaiah a prophet of Jehovah God spoke one time…
Quote I KINGS 22:19-23
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Who was this spirit that came forth? And where did it come from?
It says all the heavenly host were standing by Him (God) – could Satan and his cronies have been there?
Of this host it says they were standing on His right hand and on His left.
From what I gather of reading the Word – the right hand of God is His strength and blessings come to those who are on this side of Him (Mt 25:31-46)
Also we are told that Satan and his cronies are cast out of heaven sometime in the future down to earth where the Devil – knowing he has but a short time left will go about seeking to deceive all that are on the face of the earth. (Rev 12:7-12)So God allowed an evil spirit to go and do His bidding in order that the King would be deceived…
Then we have the time that God spoke to Balaam the false prophet, how? Through the mouth of a donkey.
Surely not, how could God do such a thing or allow such a thing as this? Well he did…What is more this false prophet Balaam was pretty genuine when it came to the words he spoke in the name of the Lord (Num 23 & 24)
So what made him a false prophet? – he taught them fornication.
So he was pretty much like what Jesus warned of in Matt 24:24What about the time God told Hosea to take a whore for a bride (Hosea 1:2) Surely not…
I also read that Jannes and Jambres – who withstood Moses were able to impersonate two of the plagues that Moses brought (turning the waters into blood, and bringing frogs from the river) Also they were able to turn their rods into serpents.
In the book of Revelation I read that power is given to antichrist to call down fire from Heaven in the sight of men as often as he likes.
No doubt he will use this ability to deceive many into believing that his is God…What I see from all of this is that we should not quickly dismiss the events that occurred through the agency of this witch to be of the devil entirely.
David you said that the prophecy that this “demon” claiming to be Samuel gave was inaccurate – how so?
You also stated that I Chronicles 10:13 proves that Saul was killed for consulting a witch (true) who killed him? Under who's authority? (Job 2:6)
God's of course – and verse 14 tells me that because he did not consult the LORD this was done to him. Yet 1 Sam 28:6 tells me he did…So clearly it is not so simple a matter…
Did he not try hard enough to hear from the LORD?
Did he not wait long enough for an answer?
Was it that he was unable to hear the answer that God was giving him?Whatever the answer to these questions – he did get an answer from God by one means or another – I believe.
Was it right for him to seek an answer in such places? No!
Did he rightly pay for it with his life? Yes! – a fitting punishment really – Saul received the punishment of the law he had pronounced – death.Was this one summoned up by the witch a devil spirit or was it Samuel? That is the question.
1 Sam 28:12 – the woman became aware of who Saul was upon seeing Samuel. Why?
She was upset at this point – why? Because things were not going as she had planned?
No doubt using her corrupted spiritual ways she would have summoned a demon to deceive the king, now it seems the tables are turned and God uses her as an unwitting accomplice to deliver to Saul His message.
But is this possible in the light of the words of Jesus in Luke 16:23-31 ?
These verses tell us that there is a gulf fixed between the souls in torment and those in the place of blessing.
Such that free traversal between these two realms is not possible.It also tells us that sending Lazurus to the house of this man's family would be futile as it would not enable them to believe and therefore avoid coming to this place he now found himself in.
It does not say that it would not be possible for him to be sent though… only that doing so would not accomplish anything of value.
If it does not discount the possibility of Abraham being able to do such a thing, then certainly we cannot rule out the possibility that God could or would.
David you asked :
Quote So, is it possible for this person to call forth righteous disembodied spirit beings from where they are?
Can those serving Satan really yank a saved soul out of its spiritual repose? Do the wicked of this world have that kind of power?
Does Satan have power over the holy ones? Can Satan actually reach into Paradise and drag “souls” out of there for his own devious purposes?
Short answer – no – so how then is it possible that this one summoned up was Samuel? Only 2 possible answers1: It is not and this was an evil spirit
2: God did this using the witch as an unwitting accomplice.David – you also mention that if this is Samuel then there are many troubling questions that this raises. Like what? Could you elaborate – outline what these troubling questions are please.
Why did Samuel come up from below? Jesus went down to sheoll for two purposes to preach to the souls in prison that repented not, and to bring the dead saints up from the grave. The latter group he led (the captives of Satin) up to Heaven where he is seated on God's right hand.
What we have to realize is that – before Jesus the Messiah came, the souls of the righteous were not in a Heavenly realm but trapped because of sin in the realms of the enemy. Jesus' blood paid the penalty of sin and therefore ransomed them from this prison house, at the same time liberating all of those who would likewise be detained upon death had he not come and redeemed them.Another point to consider
4 times the Word of God records that the one who came up was Samuel.
Not one time does it tell us this was a deception upon the King.
Why should we assume therefore that it is?Quote
I KINGS 22:19-23
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning theeLook at the parallels here
- A King who is opposing God and seeking God's advice and endorsement – a King like Samuel
- So why should God answer him right? Yet He does give him an answer – not the one he wants to hear.
But look what else
This is a deception – all of his prophets are inspired by an evil spirit and God lets him know!
Of course this did not change his mind – he still goes ahead and God's will is still done.
King Ahab had previously been condemned by the prophet Elijah.Saul was out of favour with God – this did not change at any time.
He – no doubt – wanted to hear that everything was going to turn out OK. He was disappointed.
But nowhere does it say that this scene was a deception and that the one who was stated as being Samuel was NOT Samuel but an evil spirit.
If this was indeed a deception then God changed the way he deals with such situations – I read in the Word that God and His ways change not.Quote David you said that the prophecy that this “demon” claiming to be Samuel gave was inaccurate – how so? Hi Malcolm.
I gave a much more detailed post on this subject on Aug 23, in this thread. There, I discuss this. Please read that post. But what I said concerning your question there, was:Quote AND WHAT WAS THE MESSAGE given by this “Samuel”? Israel would be given into Philistine hands, and the next day Saul and his sons would be with “Samuel,” indicating that they would die while fighting the Philistines. (1 Samuel 28:4-19) Is that what happened?
Not “tomorrow,” or “to morrow” (KJV) as “Samuel” INCORRECTLY says, but a number of days later King Saul and three, not all, of his sons fall in battle at Mount Gilboa. (His son Ish-bosheth survived him.)—1 Sam. 28:4-25; 31:1-13.If this were from God, it would be correct. Right?
You state:
“In your last two posts you do make some excellent points and raise some very good questions. Certainly it calls for deeper investigation on the whole topic.“
I agree. This topic does deserve a “deeper investigation.” It bothers me every time Heiscoming simply says: “It says Samuel.”I skimmed to the end of your first post and saw you came to two possible conclusions:
“Short answer – no – so how then is it possible that this one summoned up was Samuel? Only 2 possible answers
1: It is not and THIS WAS AN EVIL SPIRIT
2: GOD DID THIS USING THE WITCH as an unwitting accomplice.”Some do believe that God was using this “witch” to accomplish his purpose. I would first like to point out (especially for Nick and Heiscoming) that there are some problems with this idea. Was God working with the witch? Well, there is no indication from the text itself that God was a part of this. The Bible doesn’t suggest that God did this, but that the WOMAN called him out. You can assume God did it, but this is not stated. It is conjecture.
Actually, I’m going to quote from Ramblinrose’s website (In this case, your “possible answer” #2, is their “theory one.”:
“THEORY ONE — God Himself intervened in this situation and by His power raised up Samuel to appear unto Saul. And the purpose was to deliver a message to Saul. There are some problems associated with this view, however, as one might well expect. Would God work hand-in-hand with a “witch” (as the KJV describes her)? Also, keep in mind that from the text itself (1 Samuel 28) there is no indication that this appearance was at the hand of God; NOWHERE does it suggest GOD did this, but rather that the WOMAN called him forth. One might perhaps ASSUME God did it, but such is NOT STATED … it is purely CONJECTURE on the part of interpreters.God certainly had the power to raise up Samuel and send him to Saul at this time with a message, had He chosen to do so. There is no doubt about that. But did God do this? One may assume it, but one cannot prove it. Here's something else to consider: even if God did send Samuel to Saul at this time, this in no way proves the conscious existence of an “undying spirit-being” in some Hadean holding cell after the physical death of its “host body” and prior to the day of the resurrection of that body and final judgment. God could just as easily have raised Samuel's mortal remains from the dust of the ground, breathed life back into this dead body, sent him to deliver this message, and then returned Samuel to his slumber in the dust of the ground (Daniel 12:2). That also is a legitimate possibility, and one far more consistent with the remainder of Scripture pertaining to the nature and destiny of man. The text itself does not suggest anything about Samuel's state prior to this calling up. The only possible allusion is when Samuel says, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” (1 Samuel 28:15). This really does not “prove” either interpretation, however, as this statement could just as easily refer to being disturbed from his “sleep in the dust of the ground” as to his conscious bliss in some intermediate “holding area” which was interrupted by this summons.
Yes, it is certainly possible that God could have raised Samuel and sent him to Saul …. but it is odd, is it not, that the character said to be Samuel (in 1 Samuel 28:15) attributes the raising up of himself to Saul and this woman from Endor. Why didn't this apparition acknowledge that it was God who raised him up? This is more than a little puzzling. Thus, at best, the Traditionalists seek to build their doctrine upon sweeping assumptions with no textual or contextual substantiation. That is poor hermeneutics, and additionally a mighty unstable foundation upon which to build a theology. “
I think this website raised some good points. You say there are two possibilities. Neither of these possibilities are actually stated, meaning, nowhere does the Bible say that God was involved, for example. This apparition didn’t seem to act like it was God that had raised him up. “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” This doesn’t seem like something anyone would say to God. “Why have you disturbed me God?” No, he was speaking to the witch of Endor and Saul.
OK, I’m going to go back to the beginning of your post.
You said,
“What I see from all of this is that we should not quickly dismiss the events that occurred through the agency of this witch to be of the devil entirely.”
I would never suggest that we “quickly” dismiss it.
You mention Jannes and Jambres and the fact that they could impersonate. (Things are not always as they at first seem). You mention that the antichrist or in my view antichrists have power to mislead. Yes they do. So we must be careful, without question.
You also say: “What about the time God told Hosea to take a whore for a bride (Hosea 1:2) Surely not…” Yes, if we do not want to come to wrong conclusions, we cannot simply look at one scripture without considering the rest.
And you say: “Then we have the time that God spoke to Balaam the false prophet, how? Through the mouth of a donkey.
Surely not, how could God do such a thing or allow such a thing as this? Well he did…”
Of course, God could use a donkey to convey a message if He chooses. But would he ever use something like a ouiji board? Would he ever use something that he condemns? He doesn’t condemn donkeys as being bad. THE USE OF SPIRIT MEDIUMS IS “UNCLEAN AND “DETESTABLE” TO JEHOVAH. WHY WOULD HE USE THEM?You say:
“You also stated that I Chronicles 10:13 proves that Saul was killed for consulting a witch (true) who killed him? Under who's authority? (Job 2:6)
God's of course – and verse 14 tells me that because he did not consult the LORD this was done to him. Yet 1 Sam 28:6 tells me he did…”Exactly. “SAUL DIED for his unfaithfulness . . . and ALSO FOR ASKING OF A SPIRIT MEDIUM to make inquiry.” (1 Chronicles 10:13)
1 SAMUEL 28:6
“Although Saul would inquire of Jehovah, Jehovah never answered him, either by dreams or by the Úrim or by the prophets.”
Jehovah had left Saul. Saul would inquire of Jehovah, but Jehovah was not answering him. Saul died, not because he didn’t consult the Lord, as you say. Because we know he would inquire of Jehovah. He died, “also for asking of a spirit medium.” It is ridiculous, in my opinion to think that if this was Jehovah’s doing, that Jehovah would then do away with him for it!!!You say:
“So clearly it is not so simple a matter…”For some
it is simple. “It says Samuel,” they say.You ask:
“Did he not try hard enough to hear from the LORD?
Did he not wait long enough for an answer?
Was it that he was unable to hear the answer that God was giving him?”Was it not because of his unfaithfulness that Jehovah had left him, and was not answering him?
Umm, you say:
“Whatever the answer to these questions – he did get an answer from God by one means or another – I believe.”
So, Jehovah doesn’t want to answer Saul, but Saul still gets his answer, by tricking Jehovah somehow, by doing things a different way? I would tend not to believe that.You say:
“No doubt using her corrupted spiritual ways she would have summoned a demon to deceive the king, now it seems the tables are turned and God uses her as an unwitting accomplice to deliver to Saul His message.”Interesting idea. But I am more apt to believe that if Jehovah is not answering him, by means of dreams or prophets or the Urim (through the priests), then HE CANNOT GO AROUND JEHOVAH and find another way, a way THAT JEHOVAH VIEWS AS “DETESTABLE” AND “UNCLEAN.” This does not make sense to me. Jehovah is “holy holy holy.” That’s a fancy word for clean. Would he use something that he condemns as “detestable.” And
WOULD JEHOVAH’S FORTELLING OF THE FUTURE BE WRONG?
I can’t believe that. Nothing in the Bible allows me to believe that.Malcolm, I want to look at what else you say, but I have to be somewhere now. I'll discuss this further later.
david.
That's funny. I just noticed what I wrote:
Quote I agree. This topic does deserve a “deeper investigation.” It bothers me every time Heiscoming simply says: “It says Samuel.” I skimmed to the end of your first post and saw you came to two possible conclusions:
When I say I “skimmed,” I mean I read it all, but those words caught my attention. So I started there. I will of course, read everything you wrote.
dave
David, you try to make the claim that the reason it was not Samuel because Saul was trying to use a witch to conger a familar spirit. The point you miss is that God , not the witch who is responsible for the soul of Samuel appearing to Saul. For the witch has no power to bring anyone soul from out of captivity.
In the JW thread, you stated:
“David, as I posted in the soul thread, only God has the power to bring up a soul from the place where the souls were being held. The witch did nothing other then witness the event. Samuel did come up by the will of God and did appear to Saul. It is written.”I brought it here, so we wouldn't have to discuss this same subject in two threads.
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