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Hi Rudy,
Im enjoying your posts and find myself agreeing with a lot of what you write. My understanding is that Hades and Gehenna are two distinct destinations. Hades is a temporary prison (Rv 20:14) in which the unsaved are kept until the day of judgement. It is geo-centric in location (Matt 11:23, Lk 10:15). Gehenna is the place where the unsaved are sent (cast, thrown) following their judgement (Rv 20:13). This is the outer darkness. What are your thoughts?I do not see why the belief that we are asleep until the resurrection is a cultic belief. Jesus said of both the young girl and of Lazurus that each were asleep. He also says in John 5 that the day is coming when all who sleep in the grave shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done good unto the resurrection of life and those who have practiced evil unto the resurrection of damnation. What is the purpose of the resurrection if it is not for the believer to come to life again. One answer I am usually told is that it is when our immortal souls are reunited with a body. Is this what the answer is or does anyone have another one.
Hi Is 1:18
My understanding of hades is that it is the greek equivalent of the hebrew word Sheol. Both can be interpreted grave.
Gehenna, from what I have heard was an actual place in Jesus' day. It was a place where they discarded and burnt refuse. So when Jesus spoke of the fire of gehenna, the people had a visual image. I may be wrong on this. Has anyone heard of this befo?e.Quote (Rudy @ April 12 2005,00:21) In Daniel 12: 1-4, Daniel talks of the end of the age where it says, “Many that sleep in the dust shall awake to everlasting life.” This “sleep” is referring to the physical body sleeping, not the soul or spirit. Our spirit is the “real us.” We are a spirit and have a soul (mind, will and emotions) that lives in a body. There is a cultic teaching that talks about “soul sleep” which is not scriptural. When people die, they do not enter into a state of eternal sleep, neither do they cease to exist. When we die, our body will go into the ground to decay and return to dust, but our body is not who we really are (Genesis 3:19). Our spirit, when we die, goes either to hell or to be with the Father in heaven. There is no in-between place, heavenly sleep or state of non-existence.
Hi Rudy,
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says “the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” I believe this verse is talking about everyone although I guess one could say it is only talking about the righteous.Philippians 3:10 Paul says “I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.”
Greg
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Hi,
The old KVJ does not discriminate too well between gehenna and hades so other versions are more helpful here.
I did see a Discovery program recently on the greek hades and it comprised a series of interconnecting tunnels, some hidden so the “priests” could cause entrants to believe they had magic powers. It finally ended in a chamber where I ouiji type occult ceremonies could be performed and it had another exit as well..Quote (Rudy @ April 12 2005,00:21) In Daniel 12: 1-4, Daniel talks of the end of the age where it says, “Many that sleep in the dust shall awake to everlasting life.” This “sleep” is referring to the physical body sleeping, not the soul or spirit. Our spirit is the “real us.” We are a spirit and have a soul (mind, will and emotions) that lives in a body. There is a cultic teaching that talks about “soul sleep” which is not scriptural. When people die, they do not enter into a state of eternal sleep, neither do they cease to exist. When we die, our body will go into the ground to decay and return to dust, but our body is not who we really are (Genesis 3:19). Our spirit, when we die, goes either to hell or to be with the Father in heaven. There is no in-between place, heavenly sleep or state of non-existence.
Hi Rudy,
If we go to God in heaven when we die then what happens when we are resurrected? Do we go back from heaven to earth and away from God and then inhabit again a body? Then do we face the judgement and go back to God?Sounds like a busy shuttle service to me and quite unlike the way God usually does things?
Quote (Guest @ April 12 2005,03:24) Hi Is 1:18
My understanding of hades is that it is the greek equivalent of the hebrew word Sheol. Both can be interpreted grave.
Gehenna, from what I have heard was an actual place in Jesus' day. It was a place where they discarded and burnt refuse. So when Jesus spoke of the fire of gehenna, the people had a visual image. I may be wrong on this. Has anyone heard of this before.
Yep, Greg!
What you said is correct.Gehenna is the Greek equiv. of the Ge-Hinnom valley, (valley of (the son of) Hinnom)
Anciently, paganistic children sacrifice was performed unto Moloch, there. Then in later times, it became the place where refuse was continually burnt; hence the breeding ground for maggots (worms).
Those fires no doubt were stll burning in the time of Christ, therefore, Christ could allude to this location as an indication of the final destruction of the wicked.Whilst Sheol and Hades are equivalent Hebrew and Greek words describing the “state of the dead”.
They sleep in Sheol/Hades; as did Christ for 3 days [Psa 16.10; Acts 2.27,31]It is very unfortunate that our English translations uses the word 'hell' for all the above words. Hence the confusion.
Quote (Rudy @ April 12 2005,01:16) Believers (prior to the payment of sin) were kept in Abraham's bosom which was separated by a “gulf” from sheol (hell). This gulf is nothing more than a separation by a vast empty space which no-one can cross. The unregenerate (NOT-born of the spirit of God) are reserved in hell for judgement. Christ paid the price for sin allowing those in “Abraham's Bosom” to be transferred to the throne of God. Ephesians 4: 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
The lower parts of the earth were the location of “Abraham's Bosom” and Hell itself. Though the difference is the absence of torment.
Yahweh could not have man in his presence until the completed work of Christ was accomplished on the cross. The price had to be paid for first. Those captive in the lower parts were awake, not asleep! They we're reconciled with us by the price of Christ's blood which was required on the heavenly mercy seat before they/we could appear or exist in the presence of our most Holy God.
Moses and Elija were seen with Jesus at the transfiguration, they were not in the presence of God prior to this event.
Notice that after the resurrection that many that had died were risen once free from captivity in “Abraham's Bosom”.
Matthew 27: 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
The dead in Christ didn't get out:
Rev. 20: 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This refers to the physical and soul ressurrection and judgement.
Now that the mercy seat has been sprinkled with the blood of Christ we go directly to the Father when this earthly tabernacle passes away. The Old Testament believers (by faith) had direct access to the throne through prayer just as we do currently. But they could NOT be in the presence of the Father until the payment for sin, Lamb of God, had paid the price.
–added for clarity!
Our physical body is asleep with out our soul & spirit, because we shall live again in a “Glorified Body”, therefore we, soul and spirit, are not DEAD or asleep. Unlike those who died in their sins, they are truly dead and will not live again. They forfeited their opportunity by rejecting The one and ONLY Salvation and are therefore reserved for judgement.
Life is to be in Christ. Death is to be separated from God!
Rudy, I believe you are basing the premise that old testament believers went in Abraham's bosom upon Luke 16 alone. All of the scriptures up to the new testament puts the righteous and the wicked in sheol. This goes along with “and the dust shall returns to the ground it came from” Ecclesiastes 12:7. Secondly, how can believers or the wicked be conscious in sheol if “the spirit returns to God who gave it” Ecclesiastes 12:7. Some people have tried to put paradise as a compartment of sheol to satisfy the old testament evidence that both the righteous and the wicked go their upon death. This however, would not answer the the fact that the spirit returns to God who gave it. God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath of life (the spirit) and he became a living soul (being). We should build our beliefs upon truth that is revealed.Sheol – (Heb., “the all-demanding world” = Gr. Hades, “the unknown region”), the invisible world of departed souls.
Hell – derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place. In Scripture there are three words so rendered:
(1.) Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word sheol is derived from a root-word meaning “to ask,” “demand;” hence insatiableness (Prov. 30:15, 16). It is rendered “grave” thirty-one times (Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31; 1 Sam. 2:6, etc.). The Revisers have retained this rendering in the historical books with the original word in the margin, while in the poetical books they have reversed this rule.
In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version this word is rendered “hell,” the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are “the congregation of the dead” (Prov. 21:16). It is (a) the abode of the wicked (Num. 16:33; Job 24:19; Ps. 9:17; 31:17, etc.); (b) of the good (Ps. 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13, etc.).
Sheol is described as deep (Job 11:8), dark (10:21, 22), with bars (17:16). The dead “go down” to it (Num. 16:30, 33; Ezek. 31:15, 16, 17).
(2.) The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison (1 Pet. 3:19), with gates and bars and locks (Matt. 16:18; Rev. 1:18), and it is downward (Matt. 11:23; Luke 10:15).
The righteous and the wicked are separated. The blessed dead are in that part of hades called paradise (Luke 23:43). They are also said to be in Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22).
(3.) Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost (Matt. 23:33). The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Matt. 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Luke 16:24, etc.).
Hinnom – a deep, narrow ravine separating Mount Zion from the so-called “Hill of Evil Counsel.” It took its name from “some ancient hero, the son of Hinnom.” It is first mentioned in Josh. 15:8. It had been the place where the idolatrous Jews burned their children alive to Moloch and Baal. A particular part of the valley was called Tophet, or the “fire-stove,” where the children were burned. After the Exile, in order to show their abhorrence of the locality, the Jews made this valley the receptacle of the offal of the city, for the destruction of which a fire was, as is supposed, kept constantly burning there.
The Jews associated with this valley these two ideas, (1) that of the sufferings of the victims that had there been sacrificed; and (2) that of filth and corruption. It became thus to the popular mind a symbol of the abode of the wicked hereafter. It came to signify hell as the place of the wicked. “It might be shown by infinite examples that the Jews expressed hell, or the place of the damned, by this word. The word Gehenna [the Greek contraction of Hinnom] was never used in the time of Christ in any other sense than to denote the place of future punishment.” About this fact there can be no question. In this sense the word is used eleven times in our Lord's discourses (Matt. 23:33; Luke 12:5; Matt. 5:22, etc.).
Hell lost it's power at the cross. That is why though our body sleeps, as Paul said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, at the Right hand of the Father. Because His blood made the way!
The unrighteous do return but at the Second Death, they are reserved for judgement!
Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Rich man in hell – tormented in flames, has a tongue on fire that cannot be quenched
Lazarus with Abraham – comforted
Time period – just after death, rich man's brothers still aliveThere exists no clearer picture from our Lord as to what happens after we depart this body. This does not discuss the resurrection, so these souls are disembodied and NOT asleep. They are more than aware of what has happened to them.
Our hope is to receive a glorified body and robe of righteousness and crown of life at the resurrection, to not be naked (dis-embodied) but clothed in a tabernacle which He has fashioned for us (glorified Body).
Sleep – A natural periodic state of rest for the mind and body, in which the eyes usually close and consciousness is completely or partially lost, so that there is a decrease in bodily movement and responsiveness to external stimuli. A period of this form of rest.
A state of inactivity resembling or suggesting sleep; unconsciousness, dormancy, hibernation, or death.Good post Rudy,
However it only reveals the after death state of the Jewish peoples. We do not rely on just the Law and the prophets but the resurrection of Jesus. We do not go to the bosom of Abraham I would have thought.
Jesus said to Peter.
“'..and the gates of Hades will not overpower it”
He said he was going to prepare a place for us so we could be with him where he was. What does this mean? Where is his Father's house?
Why do you continue to use 'Hell' in your posts as it does not differentiate between 'hades' and 'gehenna' which you have explained?The hope of the resurrection is to rule and reign with Christ, then have a place built for us the righteous (New City Jerusalem), miss this and all you get is the Second Death (resurrection). Without Christ you have no hope.
In Christ at death, with Jesus 'till the resurrection of the body.
I make the same mistake, the word “hell” becomes a catch all. sorry. I'm referring to the location of those reserved for judgement. Gehenna. Which will eventually be thrown in the Lake of Fire. Don't ask me to differentiate, all I have is the same scripture in Revelations that you do.
Hi Rudy,
That is typical of the confusion Rudy. Hades is the one thrown in the lake of fire not gehenna. Gehenna is the lake of fire is it not?Do you rely solely on the KJV?
ps. My NASB uses “hell”as well but at least it is consistent in that every reference to “hell” in Matthew, Mark and Luke is to “gehenna”, with one exception, the reference to Tartaroo, or outer darkness, in 2 Peter.
I will give more light when I get home, I have alot more info there, also some info on degrees of judgement in the Lake of Fire.
Will be a couple of hours.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2005,20:51) Hi Rudy,
That is typical of the confusion Rudy. Hades is the one thrown in the lake of fire not gehenna. Gehenna is the lake of fire is it not?
You are correct!Matthew 10:28 – And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The ONLY place that could be possible is after the resurrection of the dead. Otherwise they would not have a body.
Luke 16:23 – And in hell (Gr.=hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
So we see that the wait in hades is ablaze as well as the Lake of Fire into which hades is cast.
Good catch! Thank You!
Matt. 10: 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Matthew 26:24 – The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
These scriptures speak of an implied level of punishment equal to the sins committed of the individual.
Below I post a link for your study. It is not cannonical nor should it be used for establishment of doctrine.
I warn everyone to use the Bible for establishing doctrinal truth. Then, extra-biblical source may be used for clarification. I warn you this way due to the amount of spurious information available online. It is my intention to promote the knowledge of Christ and our Heavenly Father to provoke all to Love and good deeds through the Fruit of the Spirit.http://reluctant-messenger.com/apocalypse-of-peter.htm
Download an excellent free interlinear :
Quote (Rudy @ April 13 2005,01:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2005,20:51) Hi Rudy,
That is typical of the confusion Rudy. Hades is the one thrown in the lake of fire not gehenna. Gehenna is the lake of fire is it not?
You are correct!Matthew 10:28 – And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The ONLY place that could be possible is after the resurrection of the dead. Otherwise they would not have a body.
Luke 16:23 – And in hell (Gr.=hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
So we see that the wait in hades is ablaze as well as the Lake of Fire into which hades is cast.
Good catch! Thank You!
Matt. 10: 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Matthew 26:24 – The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
These scriptures speak of an implied level of punishment equal to the sins committed of the individual.
Below I post a link for your study. It is not cannonical nor should it be used for establishment of doctrine.
I warn everyone to use the Bible for establishing doctrinal truth. Then, extra-biblical source may be used for clarification. I warn you this way due to the amount of spurious information available online. It is my intention to promote the knowledge of Christ and our Heavenly Father to provoke all to Love and good deeds through the Fruit of the Spirit.http://reluctant-messenger.com/apocalypse-of-peter.htm
Download an excellent free interlinear :
Heres another good tool for yas:Told ya I would stop by every once in awhile. 😉
Paul
I guess what I have quoted from genesis and ecclesiates must have a much different interpretation to most people then what I see these passages saying. Both the rich man and Lazurus had bodies from what I read. They could see each other – so they must of had eyes. They were speaking, so they probably had mouths. The rich man wanted Lazurus to dip his finger in water and touch his tongue. Where there are fingers there must be a hand and where there is a hand there must be an arm, shoulder and maybe even a torso. This all sounds like they had bodies. I see no need for the resurrection if they already have bodies. If Ecclesiates 12:7 is correct that the spirit returns to God who gave it, then how can this be a true story and not a parable. Ecclesiates 9:5 says “the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing” Basic truths have to be ignored from the bible in order to believe that death is not a cessation of life. To the righteous it is but a sweet sleep which they will awake from. To the wicked, the grave is a prison which they are held until judgement. A person can not comprehend time when they are under anesthesia and death I think is most likely very close and this is why our lord refers to those who die as falling asleep.
Greg,
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says “the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”
As I understand it, while the spirit is in a person you have free will. You can do as you wish while in the mortal body. When the body dies, the soul/spirit of man no longer controls his own destiny, he is in the hands of the Father, to be done with according to His will.
Philippians 3:10 Paul says “I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.”
The inferrence of somehow attain is to not be proud but rather in humility before our God. We certainly obtain salvation and the resurrection according to the provision through Christ. But to take it for granted and not press on is the warning.
Phillipians 3: 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried…
This is NOT a parable. There is no other message than to warn of the punishment for lack of mercy and lovingkindness which are found in the person who is “Born of the Spirit”.
These people are dead, and these are the events that take place imediately upon exiting the body. The rich man's brothers were still alive and he wanted to warn them.Remember who is speaking, He is NOT the author of confusion, neither did he lie or tell us this to deceive us.
Hebrews 10:31 – It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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