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Hi Oxy
Body – Soul – Spirit
Father – Son – Holy Spirit3 in 1?
Your body is not a person, your soul is not a person, your spirit is not a person
Yet you are not a person as we know it without all three.Father is not one person, Son another and Holy Spirit a third person of a trinity
The Father is a great person also referrred to as (a) spirit [Jn 4:24]
The son is another great person, yet not as great as His Father (according to the son himself)
The Holy Spirit is not yet another person – but is the same Spirit that is God [Mt 1:18]The subject of this thread is : the Soul – Is it separate? Is it immortal?
Separate?
It would seem according to scripture that the soul can contiunue to exist after death of the body. [Mt 10:28]
It would also appear that the spirit can exist after death – which seems a contradiction as the spirit is said in the OT to be yielded up to God who gave it.
Interestingly the Llamsa translation – (taken from the Aramaic) – translates the word 'spirits' in 1 Pet 3:19 as 'souls'. Most other versions render it 'spirits'.I would venture to suggest that, although the soul can continue after death, it is not complete of itself but in order to be complete (perfect – whole) must be housed in a body, and must be energized by life (spirit). Hence the complete cycle of redemption brings us back to a complete human being in a glorified state (the tree of life that Adam and Eve never achieved?)
Is the soul immortal?
My answer to this would be – potentially!
I view the soul as being akin to a seed.
Scripture often likens us to plants on the earth.
Whatever seed lays within the plant determines the life that will be expressed in the plant.
1 Pet 1:23-35 gives us a nice illustration of this:Quote
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.We are called the planting of the Lord, given a new life to express in our existing mortal bodies.
Having been grafted into the olive tree of God. To bear the fruits that express the life of Christ and not of fallen mankind.This rebirth is a new nature which has been planted in our soul, to express a new creature, the inner man, housed in a vessel of earth – which is yet subject due to its environment – to the sinful conditions that exist in the world around us.
This new nature is the Spirit of God – the life of our Heavenly Father – within us – to express the life of a Son of God – Christ in us.IMHO
The soul is immortal. It was never destined to die, but to live in the very presence of God for eternity. Of course, if you reject Jesus you don't get to spend your eternity in Heaven. Eternity in the other place will be a hell of a long time, scuse the simile.
Hi Oxy. How are you?
I have yet to find the phrase “immortal soul” in my Bible. I do find at least a dozen places that speak of souls “dieing,” being “destroyed,” being “killed,” etc.
Adam “the man came to BE a living soul.” (The Bible, Gen 2:7)
So it seems that Adam WAS a soul. And we know that Adam died. So it seems that Adam, as a soul, was not immortal. Something that is immortal cannot die.
It's true that humans were not created to die. But they were not created with immortality. That gift would have to be given.(This is one of the primary uses of the word “soul” in the Bible–the person or animal itself. Another use of this word is the life of the person or animal. Neither of these things is immortal.)
dave
Hi david,
Man was man in Gen 2.7 before he became a living being by the breath of God.
The body dies.
Matt 10.28
” 28″Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather (A)fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in (B)hell”
So only the body dies in the first death.
It takes the second death,
the lake of fire,
to destroy the soul
according to Jesus Christ.As I had also mentioned:
Quote Another use of this word is the life of the person or animal. 1 Tim 6:9 speaks of the “real life,” or the “life that is truly life,” or the life that is life indeed, etc.
We must take what Jesus said in a way that agrees with the whole Bible.
Quote Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul
The real life, that future life eternal cannot be destroyed by man. Other places in the Bible do clearly say that “souls” can be killed or destroyed or die. The term “dead soul” occurs in the Bible.
So yes, a person can kill your body. Other scriptures make clear that souls can be killed. But the future prospects of your life cannot be touched by another man. This life on earth can be taken. But the “real life” the life that God purposed for you cannot Nick.
To understand this scripture any other way is to disregard the Bible as a whole.Hi david,
I presume you mean 1 Tim 6.19?
That life is the eternal life[zoe] in the Son of God that we can partake of any nothing to do with the destruction of the soul in geena.
Matt 10.28
” 28″Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather (A)fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in (B)hell”So men can kill our body, but only the lake of fire can destroy the soul?
Yes, verse 19. Sorry.
The “soul” in the case of matthew 10:28 seems to be the person’s God-given title to be a living being. Men cannot blot the person out of God’s provision and so make it impossible for him to live again.
Nick, what is Gehenna? Where did the word come from? What is the history? Let's just have a quick review.
david
You do the spadework david.
Geena, gehenna, lake of fire,everlasting fire, worms not dying…should find most of themWhy is it called Gehenna? Where did that word come from? It's not “work.” I already know the answer. But let's let everyone know. It is part of the scripture you keep repeating as your ultimate understanding of this.
Hi david,
Are you suggesting that because gehenna was the rubbish tip for Jerusalem that the Lake of fire does not really exist at all?What I am suggesting is what I have repeatedly been saying: Namely, that Gehenna was a place where they threw all the filth that they wanted to be destroyed. The fire kept burning, but the things thrown on that rubbish heap did not. The fire kept burning, the smoke kept ascending, the worms and maggots were a constant feature. But what was thrown on that heap was thrown there to be destroyed.
Regarding this text, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (edited by C. Brown, 1978, Vol. 3, p. 304) states: “Matt. 10:28 teaches not the potential immortality of the soul but the irreversibility of divine judgment on the unrepentant.” Also, Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 95) gives the meaning “eternal death” with reference to the Greek phrase in Matthew 10:28 translated “destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” Thus, being consigned to Gehenna refers to utter destruction from which no resurrection is possible.
david
Hi david,
Thanks for Mr Browns opinion.
What is yours?Jesus seemed to say that men can only kill the body,
but
God can destroy both the body and soul in the lake of fire.Seems rather plain to me and these other ideas of Mr Brown are not central but possibly peripheral to the main teaching here of the one we call the Master.
Quote (david @ Aug. 18 2006,03:29) Hi Oxy. How are you? I have yet to find the phrase “immortal soul” in my Bible. I do find at least a dozen places that speak of souls “dieing,” being “destroyed,” being “killed,” etc.
Adam “the man came to BE a living soul.” (The Bible, Gen 2:7)
So it seems that Adam WAS a soul. And we know that Adam died. So it seems that Adam, as a soul, was not immortal. Something that is immortal cannot die.
It's true that humans were not created to die. But they were not created with immortality. That gift would have to be given.(This is one of the primary uses of the word “soul” in the Bible–the person or animal itself. Another use of this word is the life of the person or animal. Neither of these things is immortal.)
dave
Hi Dave, my apologies my friend. I stand corrected on this one, in accordance with the Scriptures.Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Thanks for reminding me of that one Nick.
Hi t8,
Certainly natural life as we know it ceases at the first death.
But it also seems to be taught by Jesus that the first death does not destroy the soul.True.
Yet it is also written somewhere that the body goes back to the earth and the spirit back to God who gave it.
I wonder how that fits in?
Hi T8,
Still leaves the soul which used to rest in Hades/Sheol, but Hades has no power over those in Christ who go to mansions prepared by him.Quote True. Yet it is also written somewhere that the body goes back to the earth and the spirit back to God who gave it.
I wonder how that fits in?
Quote Without the spirit/breath a soul cannot live. Very true, the spirit, returns to God, who gave it, and much like a computer, the computer stops when the electricity is cut off. The electricity has no consciousness, like the spirit or breath. The spirit is simply what animates and keeps alive the soul or person.
We know that Adam the person, returned to the dust.
GENESIS 3:19
“In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.””Before Adam existed, there was no adam. He 'returned' to that same place (of non-existence.) Adam, THE soul, ceased to exist. Adam came to “BE a living soul.” (genesis). When Adam died, Adam the soul died and Adam's life or Adam's soul died.
It's similar with us.
ECCLESIASTES 3:20
“All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.”And the the spirit that was blown into Adam's nostrils?
PSALM 104:29
“If you conceal your face, they get disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they expire, And back to their dust they go.”I believe this is the scripture you thought of T8:
ECCLESIASTES 12:7
“Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it.”The text does not mean that at death the spirit travels all the way to the personal presence of God; rather, any prospect for the person to live again rests with God. In similar usage, we may say that, if required payments are not made by the buyer of a piece of property, the property “returns” to its owner. Yet, it hasn't actually moved.
PSALM 115:17
“The dead themselves do not praise Jah, Nor do any going down into silence.”
ECCLESIASTES 9:5
“For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.”
ECCLESIASTES 9:10
“All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going.”This is another very clear scripture that explains what happens when that spirit is no longer present:
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”
Something else we can consider are Jesus words here:
Luke 23:46: “Jesus called with a loud voice and said: ‘Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit [Greek, pneu′ma′].’ When he had said this, he expired.”Notice that Jesus expired. When his spirit went out he was not on his way to heaven. Not until the third day from this was Jesus resurrected from the dead. Then, as Acts 1:3, 9 shows, it was 40 more days before he ascended to heaven.
So, what is the meaning of what Jesus said at the time of his death? He was saying that he knew that, when he died, his future life prospects rested entirely with God.Because breathing is so inseparably connected with life, nesha·mah′ and ru′ach are used in clear parallel in various texts. Job voiced his determination to avoid unrighteousness “while my breath [form of nesha·mah′] is yet whole within me, and the spirit [weru′ach] of God is in my nostrils.” (Job 27:3-5)
Elihu said: “If that one’s spirit [form of ru′ach] and breath [form of nesha·mah′] he [God] gathers to himself, all flesh will expire [that is, “breathe out”] together, and earthling man himself will return to the very dust.” (Job 34:14, 15)
Similarly, Psalm 104:29 says of earth’s creatures, human and animal: “If you [God] take away their spirit, they expire, and back to their dust they go.” At Isaiah 42:5 Jehovah is spoken of as “the One laying out the earth and its produce, the One giving breath to the people on it, and spirit to those walking in it.” The breath (nesha·mah′) sustains their existence; the spirit (ru′ach) energizes and is the life-force that enables man to be an animated creature, to move, walk, be actively alive. (Compare Ac 17:28.)Anyway, I'd like to add to Nick that I believe that Eccl 12:7 and luke 23:46 along with the rest of the Bible help to make clear the proper understanding of Mat 10:28.
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