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I agree with Nick
It is the soul that sins that will die
The body is dead anyway because of sin and so we will have a body without sin in the resurrection.
And that is the point that T8 was making I think, that an animals life is a different life, one lacking a soul. Hence the blood of the old covenant sacrifices was only sufficient as a temporary measure, to cover sin for a season but was not able to meet the full penalty of the Law.Hi,
From Gen 2.7 the integrated being of man has 3 parts, seen however only by the eyes of the Spirit.After death of the body however the soul takes up residence in earthly Sheol awaiting resurrection and judgement as shown in multiple verses in the Psalms, Ezekiel and other parts of the OT.
Hi Adam Pastor and thanks for the response,
I've saved it and am going to examine it more deeply. I've read arguments saying we 'are the soul' and have some research collected but would still like to keep my mind open and get more research on the argument of the soul being seperate to the body.
Finding the truth is a long process…but well worth it…
Found it.
Hi H.
First, Matthew 10:28 states that God “can destroy both soul [psykheń] and body in Gehenna.” This shows that psykhé does not refer to something immortal or indestructible. There is, in fact, not one case in the entire Scriptures, Hebrew and Greek, in which the words néphesh or psykhé are modified by terms such as immortal, indestructible, imperishable, deathless, or the like.
On the other hand, there are scores of texts in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures that speak of the néphesh or psykhé (soul) as mortal and subject to death (Ge 19:19, 20; Nu 23:10; Jos 2:13, 14; Jg 5:18; 16:16, 30; 1Ki 20:31, 32; Ps 22:29; Eze 18:4, 20; Mt 2:20; 26:38; Mr 3:4; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20);
as dying, being “cut off” or destroyed (Ge 17:14; Ex 12:15; Le 7:20; 23:29; Jos 10:28-39; Ps 78:50; Eze 13:19; 22:27; Ac 3:23; Re 8:9; 16:3),
whether by sword (Jos 10:37; Eze 33:6)
or by suffocation (Job 7:15),
or being in danger of death due to drowning (Jon 2:5);
and also as going down into the pit or into Sheol (Job 33:22; Ps 89:48)
or being delivered therefrom (Ps 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; Pr 23:14).The expression ‘deceased or dead soul’ also appears a number of times, meaning simply “a dead person.”—Le 19:28; 21:1, 11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6; Hag 2:13; compare Nu 19:11, 13.
On oct 26, page 14 of this thread, we began discussing the account of the witch of endor and Samuel. Please look through it to understand why I believe that this one account cannot be used to nullify the above scriptures.
ECCLESIASTES 9:5
“For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all”ECCLESIASTES 9:10
“All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.”Hi david,
The soul is the real person.
Bodies are not the person but till death they are totally integrated with the person.Scripture does speak of the real person within the body and not infrequently you will find
“my soul within me”
in the psalms and Jesus too said
“My soul is deeply grieved.”.Since the soul is the real person, then it is not unusual to see ascribed to the soul attributes which we would normally ascribe to the whole person- body, soul and spirit-such as you have shown.
The two verses from Ecclesiastes are quite consistent with all the other verses in psalms and ezekiel and other places where the soul sleeps.
The soul of Samuel was raised from this sleep .
Hi,
Mt 22.32
“….have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying
'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?
God is not [the God] of [the] dead but of [the]living”
Jn 8.56
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day;and he saw [it], and was glad”Hi,
Looking at Nephesh I sometimes wonder why it is translated “soul” when “Person”, “self” or “being” might not be a better choice?Hi Adam Pastor,
I have pasted you post here for further discussion.” No! Get your facts right.
Biblical Unitarianism views man as a soul
You don't have a soul … you are a soul.
God breathed into Adam & Adam became a living soul.
When one dies one becomes a dead soul
Every living creature is a soul i.e. animals, etc.The soul is mortal.
The words for soul i.e. Heb. nephesh & Grk. psuche are also used to denote one's life and one's personality.
So another way of saying I lay down my life would be to say I lay down my soul
Another way of saying I am upset, is to say my soul is upset.
Either way, whichever usage, when one dies … the soul dies … hence one ceases to live … their life ceases … their personality ceases … until the resurrection!
Why? … because body/soul is a complete mortal whole.Now Nick … I know others have explained this to you, time & time again.
Whether you listen or not … at least state what Biblical Unitarianism teaches more accurately.
It is the least that you can do whether you agree with it or not.”So Man is a soul which includes a body according to the BU doctrine. So when one dies he deteriorates and rots away till nothing is left, and yet this now nonexistent being will be resurrected? Do you call Sheol, so often spoken of in scripture, as “the common grave ” of the dead?
Does this mean that it is really no a place at all but a symbolic name for death and burial ? So there is no aggregation of souls at death but a dispersment all over the globe? In which way is this a common grave then?
How does it relate to how the dead as souls are shown in Lk 16, Ps 139.8,Jb 11.8, Dt 32.22,Num 16.30,Ps 30.3,Jb 7.9,Ps 55.15, Ps 86.13,Ez 31.17,Is 14.9,Am 9.2,Jon 2.2 etc?
How does the tent body that Paul wishes to shed shown in 2Cor 5 fit with such a view?
Quote That is why when Jesus says all who believe in him will never die. Because if we believe in him, even though we die in the flesh, our soul does not. Heiscoming has recently stated the above. What do others think?
Hi david,
What do you read from
Mt 10 28?28″Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather (A)fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in (B)hell.”
Does it say
the body dies at the first death
but the body and the soul die in the second death?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 10 2005,19:59) Hi,
I think this topic is important enough to have it's own forum.It has been the subject of intense debate for some time in other forums and we are no closer to unity.
There are several views based on differing foundations.
My view is that they are separate as Paul speaks of the tent of the body and wishing to fold up that tent so he can be with the Lord. So life exists beyond the death of the body.
The same “us” is resurrected after the death of the body to face judgement or redemption. Our spirit returns to God who gave it as Eccles tells us so that is not our personality. We know the body is of soil and so is mortal so this is not our life either.
1Thess tells us we are of three parts and Hebrews says we can divide between soul and spirit by the Spirit.
Scripture is full of evidence of the existence of Sheol and Hades, and this is not the resting place of the body as it rots away within a short time of burial.
Ps 49 speaks of the need for a habitation that only the saved enjoy.
Lk 16 shows us what these places such as Hades are like and tells us the soul has remarkable abilities without the help of the body.
So let's share our different insights.
I asked God the same question. He said “Let us make man in Our image”God is 3 and so are we. (excuse the poetry)
Our body is simply enough. Corrupt and destined to die.
Our sould is our identity, our thinking, our decision making.
Our spirit is our link with God which consists of our conscience, intuition and awareness of God, even before we meet Him.The interesting thing is that God calls us to lay down our lives. We are asked to go through a death of identity (soul) so that He who raised Christ from the dead will also raise us up into a glorious new relationship with Him.
For more info on this, see my page http://www.all4god.net/beyond_pentecost.htm
In particular have a look at the PowerPoint presentation Beyond Pentecost for my testimony re this plus an awesome look at the 23rd Psalm as God showed it to me.
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