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Quote Even if I actually pointed the accusation at you, there were still 2 options, 1) nutter
2) pedling your waresHowever I didn't say you were either in that post. I was trying to point out that I didn't want you to go in either of those directions
Ok lets forget that. Now please answer all those scriptural questions that I asked above with scriptures will you?
The immortal soul doctrine is the first lie told to Eve the first human woman, when satan said, “” you shall not surely die “”.
Why you have an immortal soul as satan said, but YHWH said “” the soul that sins, it shall die( Ezek.18:4 , 20). So souls can die, they are not immortal.
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2006,08:37) T8 said: Quote I agree that the spirit is the life force GENESIS 7:22
“Everything in which the breath of the force [or, “spirit” (ru´ach)] of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.”
This is speaking of animals, animals who had the force of life, or spirit.Quote If we are nothing but bodies and spirit, then we are no different to animals.
The difference is also found in Genesis. We are made in “the image of God,” with God like qualities.
Whereas God gave animals instinct, he gave us the ability to reason.
So let's reason:Quote Even Jesus has/had a soul. Why should I believe that Jesus was nothing more than a body and a spirit alone. That doesn't make sense. It says that Jesus came in the flesh. Not a spirit of God in the flesh, but Jesus in the flesh.
Yes, Jesus was a soul and he had a soul, meaning he had life. He still does have life, and always will. But when he came to the earth, he “became flesh.” He “became flesh.” He became human. He wasn't part human, but “became” flesh. He was a spirit creature, who gave it up, gave everything up and became flesh.I think a lot of the confusion has to do with the different uses of the word spirit. There are spirit creatures, such as angels and Satan and Jehovah. And there is spirit in us, that gives us life, or is the force of life. These two very different uses are not to be confused.
david.
David what do the JWs call the soul in Matt.10:28? You know the soul that not even a JWs can kill, although they try awful hard
To Eliyah,
I am not arguing with you, so why do I need to rebut what you are saying?
I simply made the following statement:
“I speculate that if a man has eternal life then his soul exists eternally.”
You will notice at least 2 points in that statement.
1) It is a speculation
2) I said the soul is eternal because the man has eternal life.You then go on as if I am teaching that the human soul is eternal when I teach clearly that God can destroy the soul just as he can destroy the body.
So Eliyah, there is no reason for me answering your posts on those particular points. I prefer not to chase white rabbits.
In adition to that statement I also said that “man began to die when he partook of the Tree of Good and Evil”.
If you disagree with this and with the statement “I speculate that if a man has eternal life then his soul exists eternally”, then tell me why. But don't take my words and twist them to say that I am teaching that the current human soul is eternal, because I never said that.
I would prefer to go onto more meaningful discussion rather than having to defend myself against your false perception of my words. In the end it is just a time waster.
Remember, I promised a smiley face if you behaved yourself. I have no current urge to click that smiley face yet. The ball is in your court.
Quote First off I would say that it is the spirit that gives life, not the soul. I speculate that animals do not have an eternal soul like man.
If by eternal soul, you mean as you say that they have the chance to live forever, you shouldn't say it like that. When people say eternal soul, they have a completely different thought. Saying that people have an eternal sould is different then saying they may eventually have an eternal soul. Completely different.
And the first part of the sentence…I agree, it is the spirit that gives life, not the soul, and I don't remember disagreeing. The soul is the life, or the person themself.Quote Now if man is made in God's image, and if man is nothing but spirit and body as animals are, then what part is made in God's image?
If I make a sculptor of clay in your image, what part of the image is made in your image?
Something doesn't have to be the same substance to be the image of something. Look in the mirror. There is your image.
We are made with certain characteristics, and abilities that the animals weren't given. God is love. God has wisdom, justice, etc. How do the animals compare. To be in the image of God, doesn't mean we have to physically look like God. God doesn't care what you look like physically. Man was made in God's image, with certain godlike characteristics that the animals do not possess.Quote I would suggest that men's souls are who we really are. If the body dies and the spirit departs, then we cannot be either of them. I would think that the mind exists within the soul. I do not think the mind is the product of the body or the spirit.
The problem is you seem to be searching for something that doesn't die, something inside you that lives on. “you will not die,” Satan said. It was the first lie ever.
T8, do you think it impossible for God to know enough about you to re-create you with the same memories, the same characteristics, etc. He is the designer of the human brain. Do you? Please don't dismiss this question.Quote Scripture is clear that we have a soul, so I would suggest that we are souls and it is our soul that God saves, the rest, God replaces. As mentioned before, we even read a description of the souls of men who reside under the altar of God for a time in the Book of Revelation.
In a sense, God does save our souls…in his memory. As I've said and shown many times, there are two main definitions or meanings of “soul” as used in the Bible: 'The person or animal, or the life of that person or animal.' Realizing this usage of the word may help clear up some confusion.
On Eccl 3:21. Because of the inheritance of sin and death from Adam, humans all die and return to the dust, as animals do. But does each human have a spirit that goes on living as an intelligent personality after it ceases to function in the body? No; verse 19 answers that humans and beasts “all have but one spirit.” Based merely on human observation, no one can authoritatively answer the question raised in verse 21 regarding the spirit. But God’s Word answers that there is nothing that humans have as a result of birth that gives them superiority over beasts when they die. However, because of God’s merciful provision through Christ, the prospect of living forever has been opened up to humans who exercise faith, but not to animals.Quote yet you take Ecclesiastes literally which seems to me to be the ramblings and thoughts of the author.
I would be more careful in speaking about God's word. “All scripture is inpired of God, and beneficial….” This is a bad way to argue, saying that certain scriptures are “ramblings.” Instead of saying you are right and the scriptures are ramblings, perhaps your ideas are the ramblings.Quote Where we seem to differ, or should I say where I differ with the JWs (for they are your doctrine) is that I believe in a soul that is our identity. I believe that the souls of the righteous are rewarded with spirtual bodies after the physical one and that we are given a new spirit the moment we are born from above.
I am wondering where the Bible says that the “soul” is your identity, or some inner person that is truly you.
I do know hundreds of places where the Bible clearly says that the soul is the person or animal or life of that person or animal.Quote I know that JWs deny this new birth
Wrong again. If you go through the section on being born again, you'll see that Nick and I discusses this for many many pages. Those who make up or enter the kingdom (government, that will rule as kings, judges, priests) must be born again. (John 3:3-5) This is what the Bible says. And this is what I have said tens of times. So what you “know” is wrong.Quote I will give you $ 1000 dollars if you can find these two words connected together of immortal soul written in the scriptures? You can't find a needle in a haystack, when that needle is not there Sir.
And even David will have to back me up on that statement, because that is the same that his organization teaches too.
Will you speak up David ? Or will you keep quiet concerning the first lie ever told to Eve in (Gen.)?
Was it plato who first coined the phrase “immortal soul,” or does it go back much farther?
david,
Before sin, man had eternal life. He started to die when he disobeyed God. It was sin that brought death. Now God has given eternal life again through his son. It is something we choose to accept.
If we look at the creation of man and animals, we know that man had eternal life. I am not too sure about the animals however. This is the distinction I am talking about.
Remember that sinful man is not really a complete man and is but a glitch in the plan that God has for man.
Quote I said the following: “I speculate that if a man has eternal life then his soul exists eternally.”
What's that scripture that says: “He who has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.”?
You don't have eternal life until it is given you. Hence, you are not an eternal soul. You have the “chance,” as you've said, of becoming one. But you don't have it now.david.
Quote (david @ Feb. 06 2006,19:39) Quote I will give you $ 1000 dollars if you can find these two words connected together of immortal soul written in the scriptures? You can't find a needle in a haystack, when that needle is not there Sir.
And even David will have to back me up on that statement, because that is the same that his organization teaches too.
Will you speak up David ? Or will you keep quiet concerning the first lie ever told to Eve in (Gen.)?
Was it plato who first coined the phrase “immortal soul,” or does it go back much farther?
You guys talk as if it were impossible for a man to have an eternal soul. But the promise of the gospel is eternal life. Surely that means that such a person has an immortal soul. Or does such a person get a new soul say every thousand years?Quote David what do the JWs call the soul in Matt.10:28? You know the soul that not even a JWs can kill, although they try awful hard
Kenrch, I've answered this question for you specifically twice already. You will just have to go back and check.Quote (david @ Feb. 06 2006,19:42) Quote I said the following: “I speculate that if a man has eternal life then his soul exists eternally.”
What's that scripture that says: “He who has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.”?
You don't have eternal life until it is given you. Hence, you are not an eternal soul. You have the “chance,” as you've said, of becoming one. But you don't have it now.david.
david,please re-read my statement. I said that if a man has eternal life…
Can you refute that a man with eternal life has immortality? I mean eternal life is kind of self-explanatory, I would have thought.
Quote Quote
I will give you $ 1000 dollars if you can find these two words connected together of immortal soul written in the scriptures?You can't find a needle in a haystack, when that needle is not there Sir.
And even David will have to back me up on that statement, because that is the same that his organization teaches too.
Will you speak up David ? Or will you keep quiet concerning the first lie ever told to Eve in (Gen.)?
Was it plato who first coined the phrase “immortal soul,” or does it go back much farther?
You guys talk as if it were impossible for a man to have an eternal soul. But the promise of the gospel is eternal life. Surely that means that such a person has an immortal soul. Or does such a person get a soul say every thousand years?
Those found fit in God's eyes will definitly be granted the right to have eternal souls (lives). But you are not born with one. It is such a common, pervasive, worldwide belief that the soul is immortal and when you die, your soul doesn't die, that when someone says: you have an “immortal soul,” that is how it is taken.
He who has endured to the end is the one that will be saved, T8. Once saved, always saved is not a Biblical teaching. Sorry.david.
Quote Can you refute that a man with eternal life has immortality?
No, they are the same.
But what I'm saying is that you don't presently have eternal life. The person across the street doesn't either. Both of you could die tommorow. And you would have to be resurrected or brought back to life to have life. you don't now have eternal life or an immortal soul.david,
Please do not put words in my mouth. I do not teach “Once saved, always saved”. You said sorry as if you were apologising for offending me because I teach that. But I do not. So please direct your “sorry” for putting words in my mouth.
Quote (david @ Feb. 06 2006,19:50) But what I'm saying is that you don't presently have eternal life.
david,No one is refuting that.
I believe that we have a promise of eternal life. Even our names can be removed from the Book of Life.
I hope you are not one of these time wasters who put words in people's mouths only to have them spend all this time defending themselves.
Can I suggest that david and Eliyah and anyone else read a persons words carefully and not jump to conclusions. That would really be helpful.
Remember we have 2 ears and 1 mouth.
I'm sorry if I mistook what you were saying. I'm actually somewhat confused by what you believe now.
It is this statment that troubled me:
Quote I speculate that animals do not have an eternal soul like man. When I say eternal I mean that man has the chance to live forever. Had you not explained what you meant in the second sentence, then the first sentence would definitely have been a false speculation.
What you should have said was you believed that man has the chance to have an eternal soul, not that he has an eternal soul.
If that's not what you meant, I'm sorry. I'm just so used to peope who believe in Babylon's immortal soul. Sorry if I misunderstooddave
Yes coming from the understanding that man is now sinful.
But I was making a comparison between man and animal as God intended in order to understand any difference. If sin makes us the same as animals then that is not a good place to discover the differences. I was speculating, not teaching that man was designed to live forever, and animals were not. In that case I was saying that the difference between an animal and human is the soul, for surely our bodies are really just DNA powered homes, and our spirits come from God to give us life.
So let that be a lesson to read things in context. The second sentence is the context. It wasn't very hard to work out. In fact the language was very easy to follow. The context came immediately after, so how confusion came from that I do not know. E.g., I could say that the bible says there is no God. But then in context it says that the fool has said this. Do I then complain that the bible is wrong? And then say well I can see that the beginning makes it alright I suppose, but it should really say this…
Do we have to write a thesis each time and cover every single loophole to disable any possible misconception. That's what lawyers are for. I have never suggested here or in any discussion here that we have an absolute guarantee of eternal life in our sinful state.
I personally think time is too precious to squabble over misconceptions and what I should have said is not dictated by you or any denomination. I choose to say what I said because I have the right as a human being to say what is in my heart. What I said wasn't wrong, so I am rather amazed at the attention this has received.
I kind of get the feeling that people are so wanting me to stuff up here that when they see something that may resemble a possible error, they just cannot wait to be the one to say I am wrong. They don't even give enough time to read the context and I am then left to explain the context even quoting the very words I wrote. That leaves them back to square one in looking for other possible errors.
Maybe I should just give you what you want.
Here goes:
“The sun doesn't rise in the morning.”Go for your life. Quick be the first to say I am wrong.
Quote But what I'm saying is that you don't presently have eternal life. The person across the street doesn't either. Both of you could die tommorow. And you would have to be resurrected or brought back to life to have life. you don't now have eternal life or an immortal soul. Correct with scriptures on that one David, this immortality happens for those dead and alive in Messiah as Paul said in ( 1 Cor.15:51 thru.54 ).
Hi,
A man, John Doe, dies. His body lies on the bed in which he died. Is it a person still lying there?Common wisdom would say no. It would say a body was lying on the bed.
If the police were involved they would say that he body of John Doe was found on the bed.
Bodies return to dust.
So what has happened?
Scripture says In when a man dies his spirit, the breath of God, returns to God who gave it.
Does the man return to God as spirit?
Is the spirit of man the man himself?
No it is the life giving breath of God.
So what is the man that exists before and exists after death?
Soul.
Man is body ,soul and spirit.[1thess 5.23]
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