The soul

Participant

Another soul thread.

February 1, 2006 at 4:56 am#11365

Participant

Wow, you must have beat me to that “soul” thread by 2 seconds t8.

Kenrch,

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My thoughts are the soul is the “inward man”:

Animals are often referred to as souls Kenrch.
Adam “came to BE a living soul.” It doesn't say he came to HAVE an “inward man,” or inner personality, but rather, he came to BE a soul. Are you saying that he came to be an inward man?

In the 900 or so places where the words nephesh and pyche are used in the Bible, they most often refer to the person himself, or the animal itself, or the life of the person or animal.

ANIMALS ARE SOULS
Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9

A LIVING PERSON OR INDIVIDUAL IS A SOUL
Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14

THE CREATURE SOUL IS MORTAL, DESTRUCTIBLE
Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23: Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3

LIFE AS AN INTELLIGENT PERSON
Ge 35:18; Ex 4:19; 21:23; 30:12; Jos 9:24; Jg 9:17; 12:3; 18:25; 2Ki 7:7; 2Ch 1:11; Job 2:4; 6:11; Pr 1:18; 7:23; 22:23; 25:13:Mt 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; Lu 12:20; Joh 10:15; 13:38; 15:13; Ac 20:10; Ro 16:4; Php 2:30; 1Th 2:8; Jas 1:21; 1Pe 1:22,25; 1Jo 3:16

SOUL DELIVERD FROM SHEOL OR HADES
Ps 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13; 89:48; Pr 23:14; Ac 2:27

DEAD SOUL, OR CORPSE
Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12

SOUL DISTINGUISHED FROM SPIRIT
Php 1:27; 1Th 5:23; Heb 4:12

GOD HAS SOUL
1Sa 2:35; Ps 11:5; 24:4; Pr 6:16; Isa 1:14; 42:1; Jer 5:9; 6:8; 12:7; 14:19; 15:1; 32:41; 51:14; La 3:20; Eze 23:18; Am 6:8; Mt 12:18; Heb 10:38

February 2, 2006 at 2:47 am#11380

kenrch

Participant

Quote (david @ Feb. 01 2006,04:56)

Wow, you must have beat me to that “soul” thread by 2 seconds t8.

Kenrch,

Quote

My thoughts are the soul is the “inward man”:

In the 900 or so places where the words nephesh and pyche are used in the Bible, they most often refer to the person himself, or the animal itself, or the life of the person or animal.

ANIMALS ARE SOULS
Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9

SOUL DELIVERD FROM SHEOL OR HADES
Ps 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13; 89:48; Pr 23:14; Ac 2:27

DEAD SOUL, OR CORPSE
Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12

SOUL DISTINGUISHED FROM SPIRIT
Php 1:27; 1Th 5:23; Heb 4:12

GOD HAS SOUL
1Sa 2:35; Ps 11:5; 24:4; Pr 6:16; Isa 1:14; 42:1; Jer 5:9; 6:8; 12:7; 14:19; 15:1; 32:41; 51:14; La 3:20; Eze 23:18; Am 6:8; Mt 12:18; Heb 10:38

I'm sorry David I Know you don't have an inner man or a soul for that matter. But wait what is the soul in Matt. 10 :28. Man can't kill the soul providing you have one. Your soul is your flesh. Your like an animal only higher on the food chain

Again I'm sorry that you wasted your time. I was hoping to get a response from t8 or anyone who has a soul :;):

February 2, 2006 at 2:50 am#11381

Participant

I didn't waste my time. I copied a previous post of mine. Your blue words are hard on my eyes. Nick and I discussed that scripture in detail in this thread a month or so ago.

david.

February 4, 2006 at 9:23 am#11402

Participant

I personally think that WE have a body and that we are given a spirit that gives us life. So if that is the case, what part is the real us (WE).

Well we certainly cannot be the body for that perishes into the dust and we rise again with a spiritual body. Are we the spirit that God breathed into us. I believe that the spirit that God breathed into us comes from God himself and that the spirit is not us, rather it is what gives us life. So I believe that we are souls and it is our soul that God saves, so it must be truly us if God saves our soul.

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a SOUL from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Our physical bodies are destroyed and we are given spirtual ones.

2 Corinthians 5:1
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

We are also given a new spirit when we are born again/born from above. So the point is that we are given a new spirit and a new body. The only part that remains from the old man is the soul. That is the part that is saved. The rest is replaced or superceeded.

February 4, 2006 at 5:48 pm#11411

Participant

In the Bible, the words translated “spirit” basically mean “breath.”

“The body without spirit is dead.” (James 2:26)

The spirit is the invisible life-force—the spark of life that keeps the cells and the person alive. This life-force is sustained by breathing.

“Who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?” (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)

So animals as well as men are spoken of as having a spirit.

In the Bible, the words “spirit” as used with reference to the spirit in a person or an animal can be compared to the electric current that flows through a machine or an appliance. The invisible electricity may perform various functions, depending on the type of equipment it powers. For example, an electric stove can be made to generate heat, a computer to process information, and a television set to produce images and sound. Yet, the electric current never takes on the features of the equipment it activates. It remains simply a force. The life-force does not take on any of the characteristics of the creatures it animates. It has no personality and no thinking ability. Humans and animals “have but one spirit.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

The ancient Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato held that there must be something inherently immortal inside man and woman—a soul that survives death and never really dies. We should not base our thinking on their great influence, and they have had a great influence.

In considering the condition of the dead, we must remember that our original father, Adam, did not HAVE a soul. He WAS a soul.

“His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (Ps 146:4)
When the Bible writers used the word “spirit” in this way, they did not have in mind a disembodied soul that continues living after the body dies. Remember, his thoughts perish. The “spirit” that departs from humans at death is the life force that originated with our Creator. (Psalm 36:9; Acts 17:28)
When someone dies, the spirit (life force) ceases to animate the body cells, much as a light goes out when the electricity is turned off. When the life force stops sustaining the human body, man—the soul — dies. —Psalm 104:29;

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what part is the real us (WE)

Scientists have struggled over what consciecness is and theologians have struggled with what “us” is for quite some time.

If you are asking what survives, what exists to be revived, brought back to life, I believe the Bible points to the dust. Man is dust, made from dust, returning to the dust. His spirit is the force that keeps him alive, and when this is gone, he dies, he completely dies and is completely dead, dust. But, if you have become friends with the Creator of the universe, he will want you to live. And you of course reside in the safest place in all the universe: Jehovah's memory. If God can create everything, can he not re-create you. He has numbered the hairs of your head, we are told. Can not the creator of DNA, bring you back to life?

We don't have to look to Plato for the answers. Greek philosphy has truly infiltrated society in a large way. And those philosphors stole their thoughts from Babylon.

February 5, 2006 at 3:52 am#11417

Participant

You believe that david, because your denomination taught you that. Therefore you follow man, particularly the leaders of your denomination. You may not realise it, but you are inside Babylon. She is the mother of false religion and we are told to come out of her.

Yes we have a spirit:

Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

To be born from above is to have a new/clean spirit placed inside you that allows God, who is Spirit, the ability to dwell in you and with you.

Yes we have a body:

2 Corinthians 5:1
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

But we also have or are the soul:

Psalm 35:9
And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation.

But before you interchange soul and spirit for the same thing, I will remind you of the following scriptures:

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So if you do not recognise the soul it is because you do not have the Spirit of God with you to show you difference. Just as the bone and marrow are different, so are the spirit and soul. The marrow is the life of the bone, and the spirit enables the soul to exist.

In saying this, I am not advocating that because we have souls that we will live forever regardless of our condition, for God can destroy the soul of the wicked:

Mt 10.28″
And do not fear those who kill the body, BUT ARE UNABLE TO KILL THE SOUL. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell”

February 5, 2006 at 7:02 am#11418

Participant

Funny words coming from someone who teaches Greek philosophy, perhaps without knowing it.

First, I never meant to give the impression that “soul” and “spirit” are interchangable, if I did. They are not the same thing. I did not mean to imply that, if I did.

Before disagreeing with me, I should make it clear what I believe:
The soul is basically a person or animal or the the life of a person or animal.
The spirit (as we are using it; there are many different uses of that word in the Bible) is that of the life force that gives people and animals life.

On an unrelated point, I'm wondering what you think of the following scripture that you quoted:
2 Corinthians 5:1
“Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.”
My Bible based view of this scripture is that those annointed to be the rulers, priests, judges, heirs with Christ, have an earthly tent (human body), but if it is destroyed, they will have an eternal house (spirit body) in heaven. T8, Am I right in taking it that you are with Nick in believing that no one ever goes to heaven? I wonder what you think of this scripture you quoted.

Anyway, Life-force, or spirit, is impersonal. The Scriptures refer to the ru´ach, or life-force, as being not only in humans but also in animals. (Ge 6:17; 7:15, 22) What do you make of that T8?

Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 shows that man dies in the same manner as the beasts, for “they all have but one spirit [weru´ach], so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast,” that is, as to the life-force common to both. This being so, it is clear that the “spirit,” or life-force (ru´ach), as used in this sense is impersonal. I'm wondering how you will explain away this scripture T8?

As an illustration, one might compare it to another invisible force, electricity, which may be used to make various types of machines operate—causing stoves to produce heat, fans to produce wind, computers to solve problems, television sets to produce figures, voices and other sounds—yet which electric current never takes on any of the characteristics of the machines in which it functions or is active.

Thus, Psalm 146:3, 4 says that when man’s “spirit [form of ru´ach] goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” The spirit, or life-force, that was active in man’s body cells does not retain any of the characteristics of those cells, such as the brain cells and their part in the thinking process. If the spirit, or life-force (ru´ach; pneu´ma), were not impersonal, then it would mean that the children of certain Israelite women who were resurrected by the prophets Elijah and Elisha were actually in conscious existence somewhere in the period during which they were dead. So, too, with Lazarus, who was resurrected some four days after his death. (1Ki 17:17-23; 2Ki 4:32-37; Joh 11:38-44) If such had been the case, it is reasonable that they would have remembered such conscious existence during that period and upon being resurrected would have described it, told about it. There is nothing to indicate that any of them did so. Hence, the personality of the dead individual is not perpetuated in the life-force, or spirit, that stops functioning in the deceased person’s body cells.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 states that at death the person’s body returns to the dust, “and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” The person himself was never in heaven with God, was he t8?
What “returns” to God is therefore the vital force that enabled the person to live.

dave

February 5, 2006 at 7:42 am#11426

Participant

Quote (david @ Feb. 06 2006,02:02)

Hi david,

I agree that the spirit is the life force, I have already said that. The spirit is given and then taken away. However we are souls and the souls of men even await the judgement. The martyed souls are under the altar of God.

Revelation 6:9-10
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

However I am sure that the Watchtower have come up with an explanation to nullfy that scripture.

As far as I know, the souls of animals (if they exist) are not spoken in the same way that mens souls are. Like animals, we have spirits and bodies, but we differ from the animals surely. If we are nothing but bodies and spirit, then we are no different to animals. If so, then I can only conclude that animals are also made in God's image. However that I do not believe that for 1 minute. There is a difference between men and animals. Sure we both have life and we have bodies, but it is who we are that is different. We are sons. We are souls. Our soul is our identity. Our body is the vessel. Our spirit comes from God and gives us life.

For surely the spirit breathed from God makes us live and the soul is not that spirit, nor is it the body. Rather we have a spirit and we have a body.

Even Jesus has/had a soul. Why should I believe that Jesus was nothing more than a body and a spirit alone. That doesn't make sense. It says that Jesus came in the flesh. Not a spirit of God in the flesh, but Jesus in the flesh.

February 5, 2006 at 8:14 am#11430

Participant

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As far as I know, the souls of animals (if they exist)

OK, I stopped reading there.
Animals are described of as souls in the Bible. It's not in question. Start in Genesis 1. You won't have to go very far to determine this.

Animals are called souls.
Animals have lives (souls).
This is what the Bible says.

February 5, 2006 at 8:19 am#11431

Participant

Quote

Yes, God's word came to the same conclusion:
ECCLESIASTES 3:19-20
“For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.”
Hence, because you can't really argue with this scripture, you will try to sidetrack it or show it in the wrong light. But if you read what is says, clear as it is, the conclusion is clear. Men die, as animals die. The spirit inside a man or animal leaves them. They return to the dust.
They only live in Jehovah's memory. And surely, it is not too hard for Jehovah to remember you.

February 5, 2006 at 8:37 am#11434

Participant

T8 said:

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I agree that the spirit is the life force

GENESIS 7:22
“Everything in which the breath of the force [or, “spirit” (ru´ach)] of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.”
This is speaking of animals, animals who had the force of life, or spirit.

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If we are nothing but bodies and spirit, then we are no different to animals.

The difference is also found in Genesis. We are made in “the image of God,” with God like qualities.
Whereas God gave animals instinct, he gave us the ability to reason.
So let's reason:

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Yes, Jesus was a soul and he had a soul, meaning he had life. He still does have life, and always will. But when he came to the earth, he “became flesh.” He “became flesh.” He became human. He wasn't part human, but “became” flesh. He was a spirit creature, who gave it up, gave everything up and became flesh.

I think a lot of the confusion has to do with the different uses of the word spirit. There are spirit creatures, such as angels and Satan and Jehovah. And there is spirit in us, that gives us life, or is the force of life. These two very different uses are not to be confused.

david.

February 5, 2006 at 12:38 pm#11447

Participant

First off I would say that it is the spirit that gives life, not the soul. I speculate that animals do not have an eternal soul like man. When I say eternal I mean that man has the chance to live forever. But God will destroy the wicked so not all men will live forever. In that case those men are like the animals. They live and then life is taken from them in the Second Death.

Now if man is made in God's image, and if man is nothing but spirit and body as animals are, then what part is made in God's image? I would suggest that men's souls are who we really are. If the body dies and the spirit departs, then we cannot be either of them. I would think that the mind exists within the soul. I do not think the mind is the product of the body or the spirit.

Scripture is clear that we have a soul, so I would suggest that we are souls and it is our soul that God saves, the rest, God replaces. As mentioned before, we even read a description of the souls of men who reside under the altar of God for a time in the Book of Revelation.

Next the verses in Ecclesiastes appear to be questions and speculation. For example, it say in Ecclesiastes 3:19-21

19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.
20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.
21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

The last part is a question and it asks if men's spirit goes up and animals down. So how much of Ecclesiastes is really speculation and the inner thoughts of Solomon (or whoever wrote that book). I am not sure if it is to be taken scientifically and if so, then the possibility of men's spirit going up as apposed to down must also be looked at.

Now if we are to take such speculations literally as truth, then it would seem sensible to also treat other scriptures the same way. That would include Jesus description of the righteous and wicked dead who were seperated by a gulf and the preaching to the dead and the opening of the graves, with the dead being raised.

This I suspect is explained away by the JWs in some fashion. Perhaps you say that Lazarus is but a parable and not to be taken literally. Yet you take Ecclesiastes literally which seems to me to be the ramblings and thoughts of the author. I didn't see any thus saith the LORD there.

I happen to believe that there is a place for the wicked dead. It is not a nice place, but thankfully it is only temporary. Hell and all the dead in her, will be thrown in the Lake of Fire to suffer the second death, so I do believe in a literal destruction of the wicked. But that will come after judgement. Infact I would go as far as to say that the Second Death is God's mercy to the wicked. For what would be the purpose of death if it was really just a horrible life. That would be a contradiction anyway.

I think that the second death is the end of the wicked so that there will exist no unrighteousness in God's new heaven and new earth. As it is written, there will abide no sin in the new heaven and new earth. It is also written that the same fire that burns up the old heavens and earth is the same fire that consumes the wicked.

Where we seem to differ, or should I say where I differ with the JWs (for they are your doctrine) is that I believe in a soul that is our identity. I believe that the souls of the righteous are rewarded with spirtual bodies after the physical one and that we are given a new spirit the moment we are born from above.

I know that JWs deny this new birth and consequently cannot understand the things of the spirit which is necessary if we are to be led into all truth. But as Paul put it, he wanted to be rescued from this body death and he looked forward to the new body, so that he would be with the Lord forever. He didn't seek a new spirit for he was already filled with the Holy Spirit.

February 5, 2006 at 12:48 pm#11450

Participant

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not have an eternal soul like man

Where do the scriptures say that man has an eternal, or immortal soul ???

February 5, 2006 at 12:51 pm#11451

Participant

I speculate that if a man has eternal life then his soul exists eternally. After all God saves our souls.

It is also written that man began to die when he partook of the Tree of Good and Evil. Before that I suppose that man had eternal life.

February 5, 2006 at 12:53 pm#11452

Participant

Thou shalt neither add to the word, nor take away from the words of this book. Who said that??

February 5, 2006 at 1:00 pm#11453

Participant

John said that about the Book of Revelation. But he didn't say that we could not speculate, read part of the book, or put events together in the book to gain understanding. He said that you shouldn't add or take away from the words in the book. No one is doing that here I hope.

Eliyah, the point of this Forum is to discuss, speculate, teach, and learn. It is not about using it as a platform for yourself. It is to share and learn. It is not a platform for religious nutters, or those pedling their wares.

February 5, 2006 at 1:06 pm#11454

Participant

Those in Messiah at His coming must put on immortality of those that are alive will be changed from mortal to immortality, and the dead in Messiahshall be raised( resurrection) to immortality( See 1 Cor.15:51-54), this is when, and only then shall man have an immortal spiritual body( 1 Cor.15:44-54)

Now when will those dead and alive in Messiah put on immortality ?

Thou shalt neither add to the word, nor take away from the words of this book. Who said that?

February 5, 2006 at 1:14 pm#11455