The soul

[david]

Jesus, “existing in God’s form” (Php 2:5-8), later “became flesh,” residing among mankind as the man.

We are flesh. While in the image of God, we do not exist in God's form, as Jesus had and does now. We are not spirit creatures, as the angels are. This should be obvious.

“Is God a being? Yes.” Well, right so far.
“Does God have a body? No, God is a spirit.” OK, I'm with you.
“So does a being need a body to be a being? No.” Right.
“Can a body not be a being? Yes, dead bodies are not beings.” I'm pretty sure you said something a page back to the effect of 'you have to be alive to be a being.' It's important here to understand.
“Being” can mean:
1. A human,
2. the state of existing, or
3. a living thing especially one conceived of as supernatural or not living on the earth.
So can a dead body be a being? That depends on how we're using that word. It's interesting that you took that word, “being.”
“Are the dead still beings? Yes. They have not stopped existing just because their body has died.” What you're doing it seems, is playing with definitions. In the third question, you ask if you need a body to be a being. And if you choose the right definition, you don't. In the fifth question you ask if the dead are still beings? Well, if you take the first defintion, they are dead beings, or dead persons. But then you jump to the second definition stating: “Yes. They have not stopped existing just because their body has died.” But the being is the person, according to the first definition. So the person has died.

I'm not going to continue this. It's foolish. You're trying to hide your lack of scriptural proof by shifting and playing with definitions.

If you pick one definition of “being,” and then make the same argument, it will fall apart pretty quick.
Do it.
Try.

Made in the likeness of his Grand Creator, Adam had the divine attributes of love, wisdom, justice, and power; hence he possessed a sense of morality involving a conscience, something altogether new in the sphere of earthly life. In the image of God, Adam was to be a global administrator and have in subjection the sea and land creatures and the fowl of the air.

It was not necessary for Adam to be a spirit creature, in whole or in part, to possess Godlike qualities.

[david]

Quote

33.21f ” His flesh wastes away from sight and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit and his life to those who bring death…He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit and my life shall see the light…To bring back his soul from the pit that he may be enlightened with the light of life” So the soul is separate from flesh and goes to the pit. Interesting

If the human soul is the entire person, including his fleshly body, as these scriptures tell us (Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14) we should expect the Bible to refer to the soul as being mortal.
The Bible speaks of ‘holding back,’ ‘rescuing’ and ‘saving’ a néphesh or soul from death. (Psalm 78:50; 116:8; James 5:20) We also read: “Let us not strike his soul fatally.” (Genesis 37:21) “The manslayer must flee there who fatally strikes a soul unintentionally.” (Numbers 35:11) “Their soul will die in youth.” (Job 36:14) “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.”—Ezekiel 18:4, 20.

But IS IT POSSIBLE THAT AT LEAST IN A FEW SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES the original-language words rendered “soul” designate something that leaves the body at death and is immortal?
What about such texts as the following?
“As her soul was going out (because she died) she called his name Benoni.” (Genesis 35:18) “My God, please, cause the soul of this child to come back within him.” (1 Kings 17:21) “Stop raising a clamor, for his soul is in him.” (Acts 20:10) Do not these passages indicate that the soul is something that exists independently of the body?

The text at Job 33:22, written in poetic style, provides a key to understanding these passages. There “soul” and “life” are placed in parallel, so that the two words could be interchanged without changing the sense of the passage. We read: “His soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those inflicting death.” From this parallel we can see that the word “soul” can mean life as a person and, therefore, the departure of the soul can be understood to refer to the end of life as a person.

And indeed, “soul” often does refer to the life of a person. (Ge 35:18; Ex 4:19; 21:23; 30:12; Jos 9:24; Jg 9:17; 12:3; 18:25; 2Ki 7:7; 2Ch 1:11; Job 2:4; 6:11; Pr 1:18; 7:23; 22:23; 25:13:Mt 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; Lu 12:20; Joh 10:15; 13:38; 15:13; Ac 20:10; Ro 16:4; Php 2:30; 1Th 2:8; Jas 1:21; 1Pe 1:22,25; 1Jo 3:16)

To illustrate: A man might say that his dog ‘lost its life’ when it was hit by a truck. Does he mean that this animal’s life left the body and continued existing? No, he is simply using a figure of speech indicating that the animal died. The same is true when we speak of a man as ‘losing his life.’ We do not mean that his life exists independently of the body. Similarly, ‘to lose one’s soul’ means to ‘lose one’s life as a soul’ and carries no meaning of continued existence after death.
Recognizing this, The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible states:

“The ‘departure’ of the nephesh [soul] must be viewed as a figure of speech, for it does not continue to exist independently of the body, but dies with it (Num. 31:19; Judg. 16:30; Ezek. 13:19). No biblical text authorizes the statement that the ‘soul’ is separated from the body at the moment of death.”

To have a different opinion, such as:

Quote

So the soul is separate from flesh and goes to the pit. Interesting

would conflict with many many other much more clear scriptures which in shear number cannot be disputed.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Nov. 03 2005,04:43)

Jesus, “existing in God’s form” (Php 2:5-8), later “became flesh,” residing among mankind as the man. We are flesh.  While in the image of God, we do not exist in God's form, as Jesus had and does now.  We are not spirit creatures, as the angels are.  This should be obvious. “Is God a being? Yes.”  Well, right so far. “Does God have a body? No, God is a spirit.”  OK, I'm with you. “So does a being need a body to be a being? No.”  Right. “Can a body not be a being? Yes, dead bodies are not beings.”  I'm pretty sure you said something a page back to the effect of 'you have to be alive to be a being.'  It's important here to understand.   “Being” can mean: 1. A human, 2. the state of existing, or 3. a living thing especially one conceived of as supernatural or not living on the earth.   So can a dead body be a being?  That depends on how we're using that word.  It's interesting that you took that word, “being.” “Are the dead still beings? Yes.  They have not stopped existing just because their body has died.”  What you're doing it seems, is playing with definitions.  In the third question, you ask if you need a body to be a being.  And if you choose the right definition, you don't.  In the fifth question you ask if the dead are still beings?  Well, if you take the first defintion, they are dead beings, or dead persons.  But then you jump to the second definition stating: “Yes.  They have not stopped existing just because their body has died.”  But the being is the person, according to the first definition.  So the person has died. I'm not going to continue this.  It's foolish.  You're trying to hide your lack of scriptural proof by shifting and playing with definitions. If you pick one definition of “being,” and then make the same argument, it will fall apart pretty quick. Do it. Try. Made in the likeness of his Grand Creator, Adam had the divine attributes of love, wisdom, justice, and power; hence he possessed a sense of morality involving a conscience, something altogether new in the sphere of earthly life. In the image of God, Adam was to be a global administrator and have in subjection the sea and land creatures and the fowl of the air. It was not necessary for Adam to be a spirit creature, in whole or in part, to possess Godlike qualities.

Hi david,
So a being does not have to be to be a being?

Interesting.

So what is the scriptural evidence you can provide for the Godlike qualities of Adam??

[david]

I'm just telling you what my dictionary says. It has a few definitions, as I've said, and shown. One definition of “being” is “to be.”

If you could pick a specific definition of “being” or use a similar word, this conversation would seem less shadowy.

[david]

Quote

Is God a being? Yes Does God have a body? No, God is spirit. So does a being need a body to be a being? No Can a body not be a being? Yes, dead bodies are not beings. Are the dead still beings? Yes.They have not stopped existing just because their body has died. Are we made like to God? Yes we are made like too Him according to scripture.

It's that last question I'd like to address. We are made in his image. But I don't think that relates to what we are discussing.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:48
“As the one [referring to Adam] made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also.”

Nick, if you feel there's nothing obscene with torturing someone for all time with unceasing pain, if that can be called just and fair, and you believe God will do so, then why do you refuse to ascribe to yourself something similar when I ask you if you would do the same to your son on a limited scale if he deserved it? Is it too close to home? Too real?
Would doing such a thing ever come up into your heart or occur to you if I hadn't have mentioned it? (jer 7:31)
Or is it even possible for your son to do something that would merit you holding his hand into a fire? Is there anything on earth he could do that would merit you inflicting this horrendous ongoing pain on him?
Does your conscious and heart not twinge at the mere thought of such a thing?
Why would Jehovah have told the Israelites: An eye for an eye, if his ultimate way of judging would exact punishment that would far outway anything humans could do in their limited lifespan?

david

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
I thought I had made it plain that what you speak of relates to the actions of a vengeful God showing no mercy to those who reject His beloved Son and the message of salvation he sent through His Son, and not to any of His messengers. Have you only got one record to play? Read the bible in other versions perhaps david, and find out more about the God whom you should fear if you are yet not obeying Him. You repetitive wailing is rather tiresome to all.

[david]

Hey Nick.
No, I have many questions. You have THUS FAR REFUSED TO ANSWER THEM. But I know why.

1.–What does YOUR VERSION of Jeremiah 7:31 say?
–What does YOUR BIBLE tell us about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31?
–How does that thought about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31 in YOUR BIBLE compare to your understanding of the parable of the rich man and lazarus?
–If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale? (Jer 7:31, Your Bible)

Still waiting for any comment at all on that question.

2.– How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)

I've asked that one 3 times I think. Only silence as a reply.

3.–Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God's personality and love? “God IS love,” the Bible tells us.
–What loving parent would do such a thing? Would you do so?

I've asked this question of you to you many times. You cannot produce an answer as it would destroy your beliefs. I understand.

4.–If “all” Jehovah's “ways are justice,” (Deut 32:4) and if He is a “lover of justice,” (Ps 37:28-29), then we would expect his judgemnets to be fair, or just, wouldn't we?
–If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire? Eternal torment for eternal torment?
–Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17)
–Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment?

I’m sure I’ve asked you this before. I don’t know what your response was, but it had nothing to do with my questions.

5.– How does your teaching that the soul is a separate part fit in with the fact that animals are souls? (Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9)
–How does your teaching that the soul is separate part of the person fit in with the many clear scriptures that completely disagree with this, and say that a living person IS a soul? (Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14)

–How does your teaching that the soul somehow is separate and survives the death of the body fit in with the scriptures that say soul is mortal, destructible? (Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23: Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3)
–How does your belief that the soul survives the death of the body fit in with these scriptures that speak of a dead soul or corpse? (Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12)

6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as you assert to fit your beliefs, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10?
–Was the one who quoted these words wrong?
–If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?

7.–When Jonah was in the big fish and “out of the belly of Sheol [he] cried for help,” was he in fiery torment, or rather, was that about to become his grave?
“Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Mt 12:40)
Jonah was in what was to be his sheol. Jesus wasn’t abandoned to hades. Does this not mean they are the same?

8.–If sheol and hades mean the same thing, and they are a place of fire and torment, why did Job who was suffering a great deal, pray to God: “O that in Sheol you would conceal me,…that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13)?
–Did Job want to further his sufferings in fire or go to the grave and end his sufferings?

9.–If the beggar in Jesus story was literally in hades and on fire, and this fire is real, then what effect will throwing hades (and death) into the lake of fire have?
–If taken literally, wouldn’t it mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham? Wouldn’t it mean that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades and that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there? Does that sound reasonable to you Nick?
–If it were literal, do you not see where it would conflict with other parts of the Bible?
–Does the Bible does not contradict itself Nick?

10.–Is not the idea that the soul is immortal contrary to what you personally have observed?
–What happens when a person is knocked unconscious, faints, or is placed under an anesthetic at a hospital?
If his “soul” is really something separate from the body and is able to function intelligently apart from the body, so that even death itself does not affect its existence and its functions, why is it that during such period of unconsciousness the person is completely unaware of all activity around him?
–Why is it that he must be told afterward what happened during that time?
–If his “soul” can see, hear, feel and think after death, as religions generally teach, why does something far less drastic than death, such as a period of unconsciousness, stop all these functions?

I have other questions. But it’s 1:45 in the morning. I should go to sleep, where I will be unconscious. But I will wake up tomorrow. (Sleep, compared to death. Why can’t we understand the similarities?)

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Are you really saying you discover the nature of God but studying the morals of Men? Bizarre.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
God has told us in the bible what awaits those who ignore and denigrate His words. So if He does what He says he will do surely that is justice. We cannot say we have not been warned.
The rich man in Hades tried to send help to those left living on earth by supernatural means after his physical death but he was told that “they have Moses and the Prophets”.

Written warnings are meant to be sufficient. But philosophers will always try to find special advantages for themselves within line and context. God has no favourites. What is written is our hope or our fate. We obey, or show we are rebels who deserve whatever God has decided is our destiny.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
I agree persons are souls ..whether or not they are clothed in a body. Likewise animals too are beings. Their clay too was given life and nature from the breath of God.
Sheol and hades are not the same but hades is shown in Luke 16 by Jesus Christ to be the part of sheol where sinners await their judgement. Those who will inherit with Abraham are shown with Abraham.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
All men who are not in Christ or found worthy of mercy because of the mercy they have shown to those who are in Christ, are equally deserving in God's eyes of the Lake of fire.

The salvation gospel of Jesus Christ is a lifeline to all, to be rescued from the inevitable expression of God's wrath against rebellious men.
Jn 3.19
“And this is the judgement, that the light came into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil, for everyone who does evil hates the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. He who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God”

[david]

Quote

I agree persons are souls ..whether or not they are clothed in a body. Likewise animals too are beings. Their clay too was given life and nature from the breath of God. Sheol and hades are not the same but hades is shown in Luke 16 by Jesus Christ to be the part of sheol where sinners await their judgement. Those who will inherit with Abraham are shown with Abraham.

?

david.
You almost responded to one of my 10 questions here Nick. That's great.

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6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as you assert to fit your beliefs, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10? –Was the one who quoted these words wrong? –If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?

[david]

Quote

Are you really saying you discover the nature of God but studying the morals of Men? Bizarre.

No Nick, you will notice if you read what I wrote that the first 4 questionings related to how JEHOVAH GOD feels about things. It looks at how he felt about burning people alive, it looks at HIS love, HIS justice, and what HE tells us about loving our enemies.

If even one of these points disagrees with your taking Jesus story of the rich man and lazarus as literal, then either the question is wrong, or you are wrong.
Please point to where I am in error.

First, you say I repeat the same thing over and over, when in fact I've asked you many many question, all of which you've ignored. Then, when I number them, so you can count that there's more than one, you again IGNORE them. Do those scriptures I pointed to about God's love, justice, etc have no merit with you?

Notice what the first four questions relate to. There is a theme here, and it is God's personality and attributes.

Quote

1.–What does YOUR VERSION of Jeremiah 7:31 say? –What does YOUR BIBLE tell us about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31? –How does that thought about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31 in YOUR BIBLE compare to your understanding of the parable of the rich man and lazarus? –If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale? (Jer 7:31, Your Bible) 2.– How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10) 3.–Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God's personality and love? “God IS love,” the Bible tells us. –What loving parent would do such a thing? Would you do so? 4.–If “all” Jehovah's “ways are justice,” (Deut 32:4) and if He is a “lover of justice,” (Ps 37:28-29), then we would expect his judgemnets to be fair, or just, wouldn't we? –Is tormenting a person eternally because he did wrong on earth for a few years is contrary to justice? –If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire? Eternal torment for eternal torment? –Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17) –Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment?

dave

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
I do ignore facetious or rhetoric questions or those that are designed to lead one into a trap. It is not a competition. What have you learned here lately?

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2005,00:49)

Quote I agree persons are souls ..whether or not they are clothed in a body. Likewise animals too are beings. Their clay too was given life and nature from the breath of God. Sheol and hades are not the same but hades is shown in Luke 16 by Jesus Christ to be the part of sheol where sinners await their judgement. Those who will inherit with Abraham are shown with Abraham. ? david. You almost responded to one of my 10 questions here Nick.  That's great. Quote 6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as you assert to fit your beliefs, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10?   –Was the one who quoted these words wrong? –If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?

Hey David,

What does the word spirit mean in Matt.5:3:
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Which definition describes spirit in the above scripture?

I think it's mind. What do you think?

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2005,00:49)

Quote I agree persons are souls ..whether or not they are clothed in a body. Likewise animals too are beings. Their clay too was given life and nature from the breath of God. Sheol and hades are not the same but hades is shown in Luke 16 by Jesus Christ to be the part of sheol where sinners await their judgement. Those who will inherit with Abraham are shown with Abraham. ? david. You almost responded to one of my 10 questions here Nick.  That's great. Quote 6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as you assert to fit your beliefs, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10?   –Was the one who quoted these words wrong? –If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?

Hi david,
You misconstrue the english language. These terms are not mutually exclusive.
You may as well ask:
“Does Tony Blair live in the U.K, England or London?”

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2005,00:56)

Quote Are you really saying you discover the nature of God but studying the morals of Men? Bizarre. No Nick, you will notice if you read what I wrote that the first 4 questionings related to how JEHOVAH GOD feels about things.  It looks at how he felt about burning people alive, it looks at HIS love, HIS justice, and what HE tells us about loving our enemies. If even one of these points disagrees with your taking Jesus story of the rich man and lazarus as literal, then either the question is wrong, or you are wrong. Please point to where I am in error. First, you say I repeat the same thing over and over, when in fact I've asked you many many question, all of which you've ignored.  Then, when I number them, so you can count that there's more than one, you again IGNORE them.  Do those scriptures I pointed to about God's love, justice, etc have no merit with you? Notice what the first four questions relate to.  There is a theme here, and it is God's personality and attributes. Quote 1.–What does YOUR VERSION of Jeremiah 7:31 say? –What does YOUR BIBLE tell us about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31? –How does that thought about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31 in YOUR BIBLE compare to your understanding of the parable of the rich man and lazarus? –If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale? (Jer 7:31, Your Bible) 2.– How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10) 3.–Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God's personality and love?  “God IS love,” the Bible tells us. –What loving parent would do such a thing?  Would you do so? 4.–If “all” Jehovah's “ways are justice,” (Deut 32:4) and if He is a “lover of justice,” (Ps 37:28-29), then we would expect his judgemnets to be fair, or just, wouldn't we? –Is tormenting a person eternally because he did wrong on earth for a few years is contrary to justice? –If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire?  Eternal torment for eternal torment? –Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17) –Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment? dave

Hi david,
Read Jeremiah 7 in total and you will understand the verse you highlight.
v2f
'Stand in the gate of the Lord's house and proclaim there the word of the Lord and say
'Hear the word of the Lord, al, you in Judah, who enter by these gates to worship the Lord.'
..Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead the dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods in order to spite Me…
…'For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight'
declares the Lord,
'they have set up detestable things in the house which is called by My Name, to defile it. And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind”

So what is the problem here?

The thing that upsets God more than anything else is idolatry and the Israelites are worshipping idols.

Not only that but they have set up detestable things in the temple of God.

They have departed from God's worship instructions and are doing their own rebellious thing.

They have started to offer their children in sacrifice which was not commanded and astounds even God.

So if you study it you will see it is their rebellion, their presumption, their idolatry and contempt for God and His instructions which is the problem here as usual.

So your verse taken out of context adds a meaning which is not the purpose of the verse.

[david]

Nick, how ironic that you accuse me of using Greek philosophy when it comes to this belief, despite the fact that the separation of soul from body IS a Greek belief, one that I don’t subscribe to.
You tell me to limit my comments and that’s understandable. I have been putting a lot down. But I just don’t see how you can’t see this, when there is such overwhelming Biblical evidence against this belief of yours, yet you cling to it, holding on to that one parable you take literally to support your belief despite all other scriptures.
You also accuse me of not looking at more Bible translations. Let’s look, shall we.

Burning their sons and daughters in the fire alive was, according to these various translations:
“something [God] did not command, nor did it enter [His] mind,”
“a shocking perversion of all that I am and all I command,”
“I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!”
“I would never think of telling you to do this.”
“a thing I did not command; I never entertained the thought.”
“It did not even enter my mind.”

The things stated above are with reference to burning people alive, as you will note simply by reading the scriptures, and how various translations connect the words.

****SO TO THOSE OF YOU WHO AREN’T NICK, I ask:
If the idea of doing something like this had never entered God’s mind, if he had never “entertained the thought,” or “would never think of telling [them] to do this,” if it had “never even crossed [God’s] mind to command such a thing,” then does it seem reasonable that he had earlier created such a place of torment on a much larger scale? Does that make sense?******

Jeremiah 7:31 (New International Version)
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 7:31 (The Message)
They've constructed Topheth altars for burning babies in prominent places all through the valley of Ben-hinnom, altars for burning their sons and daughters alive in the fire–a shocking perversion of all that I am and all I command.

Jeremiah 7:31 (Amplified Bible)
And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of Ben-hinnom [son of Hinnom], to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire [in honor of Molech, the fire god]–which I did not command, nor did it come into My mind or heart.

Jeremiah 7:31 (New Living Translation)
They have built the pagan shrines of Topheth in the valley of the son of Hinnom, where they sacrifice their little sons and daughters in the fire. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!

Jeremiah 7:31 (King James Version)
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jeremiah 7:31 (Contemporary English Version)
At Topheth in Hinnom Valley you have built altars where you kill your children and burn them as sacrifices to other gods. I would never think of telling you to do this.

Jeremiah 7:31 (Young's Literal Translation)
And have built the high places of Tophet, That [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, To burn their sons and their daughters with fire, Which I did not command, Nor did it come up on My heart.

Jeremiah 7:31 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
They have built the high places of Topheth (A) [a] in the Valley of Hinnom (B) in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing I did not command; I never entertained the thought.

Jeremiah 7:31 (New International Reader's Version)
The people have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom. There they worship other gods. And there they sacrifice their children in the fire. That is something I did not command. It did not even enter my mind.

[david]

Quote

Hi david, I do ignore facetious or rhetoric questions or those that are designed to lead one into a trap. It is not a competition. What have you learned here lately?

Jesus used a lot of questions. It's a great teaching tool. It reveals what's in the heart and allows others to express themselves. While the Bible tells us to “shun foolish questionings and geneologies which lead to nothing,” the questions I asked are at the heart of this issue.

You say God burns people alive.
I say point out that burning people alive in the past, “never even crossed [His] mind.”
You think this isn't related?

You say God burns people alive for the sins of a few years.
I point out God's principal of exact retribution (eye for eye) for Israel. I point out that God is just. How is this not related?

You say God burns people alive.
I say “God is love.”

These things and the many others are directly linked to what we are discussing. Putting your head in the sand will not make them disappear. Telling me to comment less will not either. I will comment less, but the questions will remain.

I point out that Jesus “spoke in illustrations.” Do you know how much the Bible tells us he did so? You know the answer.
You say, no, this couldn't possibly be one, despite hundreds of scriptures that conflict.

david.

[NickHassan]

So david,
Are you ready to give up speculation about the lake of Fire and return to revelation now you can see it is idolatry and disobedience and presumption that upsets God?

[Author]

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