The soul

[david]

How's it going Nick?
OK, I'm still foggy on what you think the “soul” is, other than saying it's a vessel and we are living souls. Yes, but saying we are living souls does not tell me what a soul is. It's like saying a soul is a soul.
I just want a more complete definition from you as to what you believe “soul” is in the Bible and I'm also wondering what your thoughts on “spirit” are.
I've told you mine.

[NickHassan]

hi david,
You are right. But neither do you reject Jn1.1. God puts little potential stumbling blocks in scripture for those who are unwary and unwise to be deceived.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 31 2005,20:54)

How's it going Nick? OK, I'm still foggy on what you think the “soul” is, other than saying it's a vessel and we are living souls.  Yes, but saying we are living souls does not tell me what a soul is.  It's like saying a soul is a soul.   I just want a more complete definition from you as to what you believe “soul” is in the Bible and I'm also wondering what your thoughts on “spirit” are. I've told you mine.

Hi david,
You are a living soul designed to hold the Spirit of God and draped in an earthly tent.
I hope the fog clears.

[david]

No of course not. What I'm saying is this. john 1:1 is a fantastic scripture. It's great. I love it. In fact, when someone starts to mention the trinity, I immediately take them to that scripture and start there. I then show them how similar grammer is used in other parts of John and how there Bible translated those scriptures, with the word “a” added in those other scriptures.
I got sidetracked. My point is that there are a lot of other scriptures that speak of Jesus, obviously. There are a lot of other scriptures that use the word “god.” To ignore all those other scriptures and “throw the baby out with the bathwater,” as you say, is wrong.
If our understanding of a certain scripture is correct, it will agree with the rest of scripture.

The witch of endor returns:

Saul died for asking a spirit medium to inquire of the dead.

Why? Why Nick? No need to answer.

Because in doing this, he disobeyed God’s explicit law: “There should not be found in you . . . anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah.” (Deuteronomy 18:10-12)

But what I would like your thoughts on is this:
Nick, why is inquiry of the dead detestable to God?

Before answering that question Nick, consider this:
Does the rest of the scriptures indicate that it's really possible?

If anyone is to talk with the dead, the deceased must actually be alive. They must have immortal souls.
Yet the Bible says: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7)
Therefore, the person himself is a soul. He does not have an immortal soul that lives on after the death of the body.
In fact, the Scriptures say:
“The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4)
Moreover, God’s Word says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,” mankind’s common grave.—Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10.
FAR FROM BEING ENLIGHTENED, THEN, THE DEAD ARE UNCOUSCIOUS, JUST AS A SLEEPING MAN IS UNCOUSCIOUS, AND HENCE, the Bible often compares death to sleep. (Yes Nick a sleeping person can be woken up. That's what we call the resurrection.) So it is impossible to speak with them. Acting in harmony with God’s law against inquiring of the dead therefore protects us from being deceived.

Yet, messages from the spirit realm are possible, as King Saul’s experience shows.

But What Is the Source?
Messages do come from the spirit realm, but their source is powerful creatures seeking to mislead mankind. The Bible identifies them as “wicked spirit forces”—Satan the Devil and disobedient angels known as demons. (Ephesians 6:12) When King Saul visited the spirit medium in En-dor, it was a demon that impersonated the dead prophet Samuel.

As illustrated in the case of Saul, the demons have nothing beneficial to convey, and their supposed help is short-lived. Like their ruler, the Devil, they are liars. (Mark 3:22; John 8:44)

david.

[david]

Quote

Hi david, You are a living soul designed to hold the Spirit of God and draped in an earthly tent. I hope the fog clears.

Nope, your answers still seem hazy. I asked what soul was. You answered by saying: “A living soul designed….” But what is a living soul?

When the Bible says a soul dies, or is destoryed, or killed, or when the Bible uses the expression “impotent in death,” or says that a person's thoughts perish, how do you take such scriptures?

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
You are arguing with Scripture and not me over Samuel.
When you are resurrected will you have the same mind and heart? Will you experience the same thoughts and feelings?Will your personality be identical?
Then if it is the same you and your spirit had returned to God where were YOU in the meantime?

[david]

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of rúach. Some translators render it “breath.” When that rúach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm.)

Eccl. 12:7: “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit [or, life-force; Hebrew, rúach] itself returns to the true God who gave it.”
(The text does not mean that at death the spirit travels all the way to the personal presence of God; rather, any prospect for the person to live again rests with God. In similar usage, we may say that, if required payments are not made by the buyer of a piece of property, the property “returns” to its owner.) (KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy all here render rúach as “spirit.” NAB reads “life breath.”)

Before Adam was given spirit, he was lifeless. He was not a living soul yet. Adam was created from the dust. When he died, he returned to the dust and the spirit “returned” to God. This can’t be taken to mean the spirit (as in a spirit person) was a conscious, thinking, thing for the scripture in Ps 146:4 for example, doesn’t allow that.
Imagine a lamp. You turn the switch on, it has life. You turn the switch off, the electricity stops, the light dies. Electricity can animate several machines. It’s similar with the breath of life, or spirit that God has put in living souls, humans and animals.
The Bible does not allow for the belief that the spirit as used in these scriptures has a personality. It is the life-force that was given. It returns to God. Only God can give it back.

We know that THIS HAS TO BE THE SENSE OF THE WORD “RETURNS” in Eccl 12:7.
Because as already stated in one of the many posts I’ve just made:
“Ecclesiastes 12:7 states that at death the person’s body returns to the dust, “and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” The person himself was never in heaven with God; what “returns” to God is therefore the vital force that enabled the person to live.”

David.

[david]

Quote

When you are resurrected will you have the same mind and heart? Will you experience the same thoughts and feelings?Will your personality be identical?

Don't lack faith in Jehovah. How well does Jehovah know you Nick? How well does he know your makeup? How well does he know every strand of DNA?
It is a mistake to compare Jehovah's abilities to human's abilities. Do not limit him in this way.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 31 2005,22:00)

Quote When you are resurrected will you have the same mind and heart? Will you experience the same thoughts and feelings?Will your personality be identical? Don't lack faith in Jehovah.  How well does Jehovah know you Nick?  How well does he know your makeup?  How well does he know every strand of DNA?   It is a mistake to compare Jehovah's abilities to human's abilities.  Do not limit him in this way.

I see david,
So do you believe you are completely recreated at the resurrection?
Scripture does say such things happen but we become a new creation during our lifetime.[2Cor 5.17]

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 31 2005,21:58)

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of rúach. Some translators render it “breath.” When that rúach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm.) Eccl. 12:7: “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit [or, life-force; Hebrew, rúach] itself returns to the true God who gave it.” (The text does not mean that at death the spirit travels all the way to the personal presence of God; rather, any prospect for the person to live again rests with God. In similar usage, we may say that, if required payments are not made by the buyer of a piece of property, the property “returns” to its owner.) (KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy all here render rúach as “spirit.” NAB reads “life breath.”) Before Adam was given spirit, he was lifeless.  He was not a living soul yet.    Adam was created from the dust.  When he died, he returned to the dust and the spirit “returned” to God.  This can’t be taken to mean the spirit (as in a spirit person) was a conscious, thinking, thing for the scripture in Ps 146:4 for example, doesn’t allow that. Imagine a lamp.  You turn the switch on, it has life.  You turn the switch off, the electricity stops, the light dies.  Electricity can animate several machines.  It’s similar with the breath of life, or spirit that God has put in living souls, humans and animals. The Bible does not allow for the belief that the spirit as used in these scriptures has a personality.  It is the life-force that was given.  It returns to God.  Only God can give it back. We know that THIS HAS TO BE THE SENSE OF THE WORD “RETURNS” in Eccl 12:7. Because as already stated in one of the many posts I’ve just made: “Ecclesiastes 12:7 states that at death the person’s body returns to the dust, “and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” The person himself was never in heaven with God; what “returns” to God is therefore the vital force that enabled the person to live.” David.

Hi david,
When you sleep what happens to your thoughts? They are silenced. We dream as a gift from God or our mind sorts through the memories but without our influence.

Lazarus was asleep according to Jesus
Lazarus was dead according to Jesus.
therefore
Death is Sleep.
1Thess 4.13f
” those who are asleep…who have fallen asleep in Jesus… shall not precede those who have fallen asleep..”

[david]

I'm a little tired. I'm going to go to sleep=death now.
No. He was not saying sleep=death, but was COMPARING the two, because certain aspects of them are similar.
So it is with illustrations, parables, etc.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
So how is sleep similar to death for you? In both cases do you lose consciousness unless you are awakened? In both cases do you stop thinking? In both cases do you awake as the identical person?

[david]

There is evidence that people sleep in cycles. Each cycle is made up of a deep sleep followed by a lighter sleep. During periods of deep sleep it is very difficult to awaken a person. He is completely unaware of his surroundings and the things that may be occurring about him. There is no conscious activity. Similarly, the dead are “conscious of nothing at all.” (Ec 9:5, 10; Ps 146:4) Therefore death, whether that of a man or of an animal, is like sleep. (Ps 13:3; Joh 11:11-14; Ac 7:60; 1Co 7:39; 15:51; 1Th 4:13) The psalmist wrote: “From your rebuke, O God of Jacob, both the charioteer and the horse have fallen fast asleep.” (Ps 76:6; compare Isa 43:17.) Were it not for God’s purpose to awaken persons from the sleep of death, they would never wake up.—Compare Job 14:10-15; Jer 51:39, 57

However, “death” and “sleep” may also be contrasted. Concerning a dead girl, Christ Jesus said: “The little girl did not die, but she is sleeping.” (Mt 9:24; Mr 5:39; Lu 8:52) As he was going to resurrect her from death, Jesus may have meant that the girl had not ceased forever to exist but would be as one awakened from her sleep. Also, this girl had not been buried, nor had her body had time to begin decaying, as had the body of Lazarus. (Joh 11:39, 43, 44) On the basis of the authority granted to him by his Father, Jesus could say this just as does his Father, “who makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they were.”—Ro 4:17; compare Mt 22:32.

It should be noted that the term “asleep” is applied in the Scriptures to those dying because of the death passed on from Adam. Those suffering the “second death” are not spoken of as asleep. Rather, they are shown to be completely annihilated, out of existence, burned up as by an unquenchable fire.—Re 20:14, 15; compare Heb 10:26-31, where a contrast is made between the death of those who violated the Mosaic Law and the much more severe punishment meted out to Christians who turn to a willful practice of sin; Heb 6:4-8.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 31 2005,23:05)

There is evidence that people sleep in cycles. Each cycle is made up of a deep sleep followed by a lighter sleep. During periods of deep sleep it is very difficult to awaken a person. He is completely unaware of his surroundings and the things that may be occurring about him. There is no conscious activity. Similarly, the dead are “conscious of nothing at all.” (Ec 9:5, 10; Ps 146:4) Therefore death, whether that of a man or of an animal, is like sleep. (Ps 13:3; Joh 11:11-14; Ac 7:60; 1Co 7:39; 15:51; 1Th 4:13) The psalmist wrote: “From your rebuke, O God of Jacob, both the charioteer and the horse have fallen fast asleep.” (Ps 76:6; compare Isa 43:17.) Were it not for God’s purpose to awaken persons from the sleep of death, they would never wake up.—Compare Job 14:10-15; Jer 51:39, 57 However, “death” and “sleep” may also be contrasted. Concerning a dead girl, Christ Jesus said: “The little girl did not die, but she is sleeping.” (Mt 9:24; Mr 5:39; Lu 8:52) As he was going to resurrect her from death, Jesus may have meant that the girl had not ceased forever to exist but would be as one awakened from her sleep. Also, this girl had not been buried, nor had her body had time to begin decaying, as had the body of Lazarus. (Joh 11:39, 43, 44) On the basis of the authority granted to him by his Father, Jesus could say this just as does his Father, “who makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they were.”—Ro 4:17; compare Mt 22:32. It should be noted that the term “asleep” is applied in the Scriptures to those dying because of the death passed on from Adam. Those suffering the “second death” are not spoken of as asleep. Rather, they are shown to be completely annihilated, out of existence, burned up as by an unquenchable fire.—Re 20:14, 15; compare Heb 10:26-31, where a contrast is made between the death of those who violated the Mosaic Law and the much more severe punishment meted out to Christians who turn to a willful practice of sin; Heb 6:4-8.

Hi david,
When you say the girl had not ceased forever to exist do you mean that death completely destroys life as we now know it [body, soul and spirit]and then all are completely recreated? Do all men thus recreated have the same body remade like new or in what form are the raised unsaved?

We know the saved are resurrected into a heavenly body but nowhere does it say the same about the unsaved so they have no heavenly body. So what form are they? What form is cast into the lake of fire in your view?

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2005,20:33)

Man was created as a lifeless body from the dust. God blew into man's nostrils and man became a [ living ] [soul].

Correction.
What's the opposite to living? Dead or lifeless.

Therefore, Man was created as a lifeless soul from the dust. God blew into man's nostrils and man became a living soul

Therefore, when one dies, he becomes a dead soul until the resurrection(s).

[NickHassan]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Nov. 01 2005,16:18)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2005,20:33) Man was created as a lifeless body from the dust. God blew into man's nostrils and man became a [ living ] [soul]. Correction. What's the opposite to living? Dead or lifeless. Therefore, Man was created as a lifeless soul from the dust. God blew into man's nostrils and man became a living soul Therefore, when one dies, he becomes a dead soul until the resurrection(s).

Hi Adam Pastor,
What does your bible say on the matter?

NASB
GEN 2.7
“Then the Lord God formed MAN of dust from the ground”

I don't see “soul” or “being” written till the next part of the verse

“and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being”

And this fits with Gen 3.19
“For you are dust, and to dust you shall return”
and
Gen 18.27
“And Abraham replied
'Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes”

Can the clay argue with the potter?

Jb 10.9
“Remember now, that You have made me as clay,and would You turn me into dust again?”
Jb
34.13
” All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust”

No, it seems you have added to scripture here Adam. God says we were dust until the breath of God was blown into our nostrils. It does not say that we are a being or soul originally. Both the life and the being came from the breath of God. Dust is the outer man. That is not his being but his tent.

It makes sense really. What is earth or dust but matter from earth? As man we are constructed from what God had already made-clay.

That is not in the image of God.

Gen 1.26
“Then God said
'Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness….God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them”

God is not created from dust. God is not derived from previously created earthly elements. The similarity between God and Man is what was blown into the dust man.

The breath of God from God makes us like to God. God has mind and heart and personality and being. Only from heaven can be given life and mind and heart and personality and being. The inner man is a greater level of creation than dust outer man.

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 01 2005,18:55)

What does your bible say on the matter? NASB GEN 2.7 “Then the Lord God formed MAN of dust from the ground” I don't see “soul” or “being” written till the next part of the verse “and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being”

Nick, Living Souls is mentioned throughout Gen Ch. 1!!
The translators obscure this fact by translating the Hebrew phrase as living creatures, etc.
However, chay nephesh, living soul appears in
Gen 1:21, 24, 30; 2:19 as well as 2:7.

Every living creature in Gen 1&2 are living souls.
Adam, Eve and the animals were all living souls.

Just thought I should point this out.

[NickHassan]

Hi Adam Pastor,
I agree the forming of living souls in all creation is shown in all those scriptures you quote.

But only Gen 2.7 gives the detail, and the sequence of the making of man.

First a body from the dust…Man is formed
then
The breath of God makes him a living being.

A being has life.

Dust is what we started as, then life and soul was added by the breath of God to make Adam a living being.

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote

Dust is what we started as, then life and soul was added by the breath of God to make Adam a living being.

Are you adding your own understandings to scripture, Nick?  Genesis 2:7 does not say, “and God added life and soul to the dust by breathing into it“.  It says, “And the [Yahweh] God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [soul].”

Here's the sequence:

1.  Man is formed from the dust.
2.  YHWH breaths into man's nostrils the breath of life – (not a soul plus life).
3.  Man becomes a living soul.  (i.e. Man is a soul – not man has soul.)

This is how you are reading Genesis 2:7:

“And the [Yahweh] God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and a soul; and man became a complete living person.”

That's not scripture.  That is scripture plus Nick's intepretation.

Here's a verse that demonstrates that man is a soul, as opposed to the idea that man has a soul.

Deuteronomy 27:25
“Cursed is the one who takes a bribe to slay an innocent [soul].”

How do you interpret this verse, Nick?  Can a mere man kill a soul?  Well, apparently the Law provides a curse for those who would do so.  Clearly, this passage is about murder – murder of a person, murder of a soul!

Do you let the Word define it's own terms, or do you ignore what does not fit your doctrines?

Be a Berean.  Go to http://www.blueletterbible.org, and type in “05315” into the “Words/Phrase to Search” box.  See what you discover in the Word.

[david]

Quote

irst a body from the dust…Man is formed then The breath of God makes him a living being. A being has life. Dust is what we started as, then life and soul was added by the breath of God to make Adam a living being.

“Then life and soul was added….” Nick???
Really?
Is that what it says?
Or rather, does it say he BECAME a soul. Not a soul was added.
It doesn't say that at all. Nowhere!!!

Your blindness to these simple scriptures fascinates me.

[Author]

Posts