The soul

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2011,19:51)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 28 2011,06:34)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2011,08:58)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 26 2011,20:09)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2011,23:52)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 26 2011,09:55)

kerwin

the first dead is the sentence to die and not be able to prevented because being separated from God,

the second dead take place after Christ sacrifice ,were all are offered to be reconciled with God and so would not have to die ,but to all who refuse to accept Christ sacrifice for their redemption(of the soul)(no redemption for the flesh is needed) will die the second dead this mean the permanent separation from God .
this is for the soul ,resurrection is to become active as a being.

Pierre

Pierre,

I know not what scripture Gene speaks of but I do know the body is redeemed from corruption by either being resurrected or changing.

kerwin

a corrupted body(flesh) cannot be resurrected ,it will be a new body free from corruption that will be given to those who will be resurrected for eternal life,

or as you say changed to go live in heaven.(144k)

Pierre

Pierre,

Except for the detail of the 144,000, I am in agreement with your words.

kerwin

why you do not agree on the 144k the scriptures are very clear that their is only 144000 that are taken from the earth and become brothers in heaven ,

all others are to be resurrected on the earth and serve God there

Pierre

Pierre,

Interpreting prophecy literally can lead one astray as it is sometimes spoken as a symbolic forecast and not a literal one.

The 144,000 are spoken of as 12,000 each of 12 tribes of the decedents of Israel. Both the numbers and the tribes are most likely symbolic of the great multitude spoken of in Revelations 7:9 as all of God's people are sealed according to Revelations 7:3.

12 is known to symbolize the unity of the people of God with God. That is also probably why Jesus chose 12 Apostles as it testified to his purpose to unify the people with God.

The product of 12, 12, and 1000 would be that unity squared and then multiplied by 1000.

I know a remnant is said to be 1 in 1000 in scripture but other than that I have not found out what scripture testifies about that number and its symbolism.

I know little about the known symbolism of the twelve tribes named.

Kerwin

the 144000 are not a symbolic number scriptures are very clear;

Rev 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Rev 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

all the others

;Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Rev 7:10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

Jn 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

1Co 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits (144000) ; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.( the great multitude )

Pierre

September 28, 2011 at 3:38 am#259542

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2011,11:05)

Gene, I still see a major flaw in your doctrine.
i.e., if we are given a new spirit, then we are not the same individual any more. We are being replaced by someone else.

Because there is nothing unique about what man is in your doctrine, then that uniqueness is not transferred.
You seem to be suggesting that rather than a new spirit, we are given a recyled one.
The same one because we still remain and live, but with all the bad bits taken out with perhaps good bits added.
If this is the case, which part of the spirit remains and which part goes?

And if the whole spirit is entirely replaced, then how are WE to attain eternal life?
If we are the spirit, then we are replaced not saved.

Instead of giving a lengthy post again, what about just answering these specific points to make it easy to understand.

T8….> so what does this mean to you.

Eze 11:19……..> And I will give them one heart, and I will put a NEW SPIRIT within you and I will take the stony heart (now notice T8) out of their “FLESH” and will give them a heart of flesh.

Now T8 is it I who is saying God put a New Spirit in us, or God who says it. and is it in some “Spirit Body” of some kind or is it in the Flesh” In fact we can also make us a New Heart and a New Spirit.

Eze 18:31……..> Cast away from you all your transgression, whereby you have transgressed, and make you a New Heart and a (notice T8) “NEW SPIRIT: FOR WHY WILL DIE , O HOUSE OF ISREAL.

T8 , Mankind is unique as a creation in a specific sense each person has his own special DNA which gives Him or her their own distinct Personality and distinct Characteristics I do believe everyone has a definite distinct Personality all their own, i do not know where you derived the idea i do not believe that from what i have said.

T8……….The problem here is people do not understand what Spirit (IS), Spirit is NOT a PERSON , IT is what is (IN) a PERSON and even in a PHYSICAL PERSON, as the scriptures i have post clearly shows.

T8………..You can type Spirit into different types becasue it is spirit that gives us our understandings, and influences our thinking and yes a person thinking can change I have changed my mind at times in my life as new SPIRIT (INTELLECTS) came into my mind. If you sow to unclean Spirits (intellect) you will become unclean also If you sow to the Spirit (intellect) of GOD you will become more like GOD all of this changes a Person , it does not change his Personality he was born with or his distinct Characteristic traits , but it does change his life and the way he lives it.

You said i seem to think we recieve a recycles Spirit, not a new one, well it might be a recycles Spirit Like for instance the Spirit that was (IN Christ Jesus Being (IN) Us, well it might be recycled becasue it is the same Spirit but it also can be a New to the Person receiving it.

T8 we are “transformed by the renewing of our Minds That is done by the Holy Spirit of GOD and that exact same spirit can be in anyone God give it to. And the part to goes is the unclean Part and the Part what remains is the clean part.IMO

peace and love to you and yours T8………………………………..gene

September 28, 2011 at 4:34 am#259547

Participant

T8,

Quote

Further back in the same chapter is says this:

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive

To put those words in context it states:

Quote

1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If the Christ that makes all alive is a man then how is he a life given Spirit?

Quote

Then after that verse it says:

49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Again let’s put it in context:

Quote

1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

From what I understand you believe the spirit being Jesus came before the man Adam and not the other way around as would be the case if the idea behind verse 45 is that the Jesus is the life given spirit being you say he was made before Adam was made.

I find it interesting that verse 47 states both that the first man is from earth and made of earth while the other man is only said to be from heaven.

Quote

The theme of the whole section of text here is Adam and Christ and the different bodies.

That I am fairly sure is incorrect as some appears to be about the resurrected body.

Quote

But I take your point; at that moment it doesn't specifically say that it is Christ.
So who do you say it is? Who else could it be?

Both the first man and the second man are each a part of Adam, Paul divides himself and others in the same manner when he calls part of him the inward man and another part the outer man.

Quote

2 Corinthians 4:16
King James Version (KJV)

16For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Quote

Romans 7:22
King James Version (KJV)

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

The soul is the spirit that gives life to the body as well as coming from heaven. God made the body from earth first and then breathed the soul it.

Quote

We know it was the first man was who brought death,

That is the point and words of verses 21 and 22 that are teaching that man is resurrected but it is not the point of verses 45 to 47 that are teaching the first man is from earth and made of earth.

Quote

Also, we know that we will be transformed to be like Christ. That our lowly bodies will be transformed into a body like his. So it also fits in this context that our old body from Adam which are fleshly will be transferred into the new/last Adam's body which is heavenly and spiritual.

Though I disagree with the meaning behind your words I do not see where anything I have written so far disagrees with it.

September 28, 2011 at 5:13 am#259548

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 28 2011,14:38)

T8….> so what does this mean to you.

Eze 11:19……..> And I will give them one heart, and I will put a NEW SPIRIT within you and I will take the stony heart (now notice T8) out of their “FLESH” and will give them a heart of flesh.

Pay attention Gene.

I am not the one arguing that we are the spirit, I am saying we are souls that have a spirit and a body.

My point is, if we are just a spirit, a body, or both, then when they are replaced, then how can we exist. You are talking about a replacement.

There must be something that is us that is saved, otherwise we are swapped for another/new person as opposed to being renewed.

Can you understand my point? If not, just say no, and I will have another bash at explaining my point.

September 28, 2011 at 12:44 pm#259556

Participant

Pierre,

I am fairly sure that the topic of the 144,000 is off topic for this thread though it does touch on the spirit in some parts. In addition I am attempting to keep my posts limited to a few threads and thus easier to keep track of. I am also not sure how this particular line of conversation is useful for “teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”. Still I will try to contain the conversation in those lines less it become purposeless.

Quote

the 144000 are not a symbolic number scriptures are very clear;

You claim this but the use of the language of symbolic numbers is from old with the 12 tribes of Israel symbolizing the unity of the People of God with God. One of those tribes was separated to become the priests that mediated between God and his people and another tribe was split into two to bring the number up to twelve once again. The twelve tribes symbolize the twelve apostles that were to come and the tribe split off symbolizes Jesus who is both High Priest and Mediator of the People of God.

The whole people of God are united with God through the spirit of saintliness that is received and lived by through faith in Jesus Anointed. This unity is symbolized by the 12 tribes of 12 units of men. Ten is the number that symbolizes absolute completeness as there are Ten Commandments that God spoke directly to the people and he designed the court to the Tabernacle to be ten units by ten times 5 units.

So according to the language of numeric symbolism the 144,000 are the absolute completeness to the third power of the unity of God’s people to God.

None of the Scriptures you quoted contradict what I just concluded in my post using my limited knowledge of numeric symbolism as derived from Scripture and applied to the 144,000.

According to the following scriptures the people of God are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Quote

Ephesians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Quote

Ephesians 4:30
King James Version (KJV)

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Quote

2 Corinthians 1:22
King James Version (KJV)

22Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

September 28, 2011 at 2:53 pm#259562

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2011,06:44)

Pierre,

Quote

the 144000 are not a symbolic number scriptures are very clear;

So according to the language of numeric symbolism the 144,000 are the absolute completeness to the third power of the unity of God’s people to God.

None of the Scriptures you quoted contradict what I just concluded in my post using my limited knowledge of numeric symbolism as derived from Scripture and applied to the 144,000.

According to the following scriptures the people of God are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Quote

Ephesians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Quote

Ephesians 4:30
King James Version (KJV)

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Quote

2 Corinthians 1:22
King James Version (KJV)

22Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

kerwin

you do not understand ,you are fallowing religion not truth of scriptures ,

again this is because you can not see Christ preexist his coming as a man .

it seems you are stuck on this

Pierre

September 28, 2011 at 10:53 pm#259569

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 28 2011,20:53)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2011,06:44)

Pierre,

Quote

the 144000 are not a symbolic number scriptures are very clear;

So according to the language of numeric symbolism the 144,000 are the absolute completeness to the third power of the unity of God’s people to God.

None of the Scriptures you quoted contradict what I just concluded in my post using my limited knowledge of numeric symbolism as derived from Scripture and applied to the 144,000.

According to the following scriptures the people of God are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Quote

Ephesians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Quote

Ephesians 4:30
King James Version (KJV)

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Quote

2 Corinthians 1:22
King James Version (KJV)

22Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

kerwin

you do not understand ,you are fallowing religion not truth of scriptures ,

again this is because you can not see Christ preexist his coming as a man .

it seems you are stuck on this

Pierre

Pierre,

I choose to believe in a God that wants a people who are righteous as he is and not only commands it but provides a way for them to do it.

September 29, 2011 at 1:03 am#259574

Participant

T8………………if i am following you right you simply do not believe in a resurrection of our Bodies. Even though scripture say that we will witness the redemption of our BODIES. (ROM 8:23…..> T8, why witness the redemption of our bodies if our bodies are no longer needed. and again this scripture, “if the Spirit that raised Christ Jesus from the grave abide (IN) you (IT) shall also (now notice) “QUICKEN” YOUR “MORTAL” BODIES. Now what does it say it will 'QUICKEN? is it not OUR BODIES ?.

Here is where i see your problem lies, Our bodies are a product of our DNA, that DNA can replicate it self again and again without ever ceasing . God has shown in scripture that it is truly a PHYSICAL resurrection of OUR BODIES at the valley of Dry bones that take place, No where does it show there is a different Body But a replica of our same bodies. Jesus same body was resurected also, That is why i tried to show you the illustration of the Pepper Plant even that exact physical body can be replicated so (IT) still remains alive becasue of the seed and that same Body can be reconstructed from that seed. So can Man .

Job 19:26…..> And though after my skin worms destory the body, “yet in MY FLESH” shall I see God.

T8…..> why do you think Jesus toled his disciples that ever hair on their hear was numbered. If their Bodies were not need again then why even number them?

Tell me T8 what do you have against Humans retaining their Physical Bodies?> You have no scripture that say we are going to have a different body do you. I know it say that which is Planted is NOT the BODY that Shall Be. I agree with that, But that BODY Which Shall be is exactly like the Body that was Planted before it died except it has eternal life (IN) it>

T8……..produce all the scriptures that say we are not going to have Physical Bodies in the resurrection I have post many to you showing we will have Physical bodies . I have shown that a “LIVING SOUL” is a Body that has the Spirit of Life (IN) it. clearly shown in Genesis. So i think it is up to you to prove me wrong by scriptures . IMO

Peace and love………………………………..gene

September 30, 2011 at 5:20 am#259655

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2011,16:53)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 28 2011,20:53)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2011,06:44)

Pierre,

Quote

the 144000 are not a symbolic number scriptures are very clear;

So according to the language of numeric symbolism the 144,000 are the absolute completeness to the third power of the unity of God’s people to God.

None of the Scriptures you quoted contradict what I just concluded in my post using my limited knowledge of numeric symbolism as derived from Scripture and applied to the 144,000.

According to the following scriptures the people of God are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Quote

Ephesians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Quote

Ephesians 4:30
King James Version (KJV)

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Quote

2 Corinthians 1:22
King James Version (KJV)

22Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

kerwin

you do not understand ,you are fallowing religion not truth of scriptures ,

again this is because you can not see Christ preexist his coming as a man .

it seems you are stuck on this

Pierre

Pierre,

I choose to believe in a God that wants a people who are righteous as he is and not only commands it but provides a way for them to do it.

kerwin

you can bring a horse to water but you never will be able to make him drink it,this he as to do himself,

we all have a bible ,but we seem not to read it the same way,this is not God fault it is our own,

God as send prophets,angel,his son,and has saved all those reccords for us ,and it seems some just do not get it,

Pierre

September 30, 2011 at 12:14 pm#259667

Participant

Terricca………….It may be the way they are written and the translation errors that exist in them or simply a matter of Past associations to concepts by organizes religions such as the Trinitarian doctrines of Preexistence recieved from the Gnostic's, but be assured there are many “Mystery Religious” teachings floating around out there and here as well . It takes God Spirit to properly decipher them IMO>

peace and love……………………………………………………………..gene

October 2, 2011 at 1:46 am#259803

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 01 2011,06:14)

peace and love……………………………………………………………..gene

gene

I agree with you ,many religion and you are not the truth in person ,your understanding is simplified by agreeing with others when it is in your personal agreement ,

to me scriptures are good the way they are ;

but you need more flexibility so you cannot agree the way it is written so you place the errors were it is in your concept of understanding so it looks better as you have and preach truth,

yeah ,what a way to be deceived

October 2, 2011 at 1:54 am#259804

Participant

kerwin

Quote

Pierre,

I choose to believe in a God that wants a people who are righteous as he is and not only commands it but provides a way for them to do it.

————–
Your Fellow Student,

Kerwin

it is Gods word that make US righteous not our own;unless you have the truth of God you have nothing,but how can we take the way he gives us if we do not understand and see that way

it seems to me that righteousness is connected to what is right and true and all those things God wants us to practice in the way to salvation by our faith in what he as told us in written words of truth.

October 2, 2011 at 3:32 pm#259812

Participant

Terricca…………… Another false statement on you part my understanding is not based on understand what other here are saying even iof i agrre with some of them. Pierre (95%) of all Christendom agrees with what you , and your co-harts are saying with regard to the preexistence of Jesus not the very few of Us who don not agree with that. The deceivers here are People like yourself and other who have bought into the Lies taught many years ago and try desperately to force your renditions of what is scriptures are saying to meet those false assumption, even if it mean getting all kinds of different bibles to do so as you yourself do. Facts are you produce many scriptures but little understand of them IMO becasue of your PAST ASSOCIATIONS and PRECONCEIVED THEOLOGIES, you do not read them with and open mind but with a Preexistence MINDSET, Much like the Trinitarians do and the Gnostic's did in John's time did. IMO

peace and love…………………………………………………………..gene

October 2, 2011 at 3:59 pm#259816

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 02 2011,07:54)

kerwin

Quote

Pierre,

I choose to believe in a God that wants a people who are righteous as he is and not only commands it but provides a way for them to do it.

————–
Your Fellow Student,

Kerwin

it is Gods word that make US righteous not our own;unless you have the truth of God you have nothing,but how can we take the way he gives us if we do not understand and see that way

Pierre,

A human being cannot do all that is right because his seat of character falls short of God’s glory.

God does all that is right because his saintly seat of character is his glory.

God in his grace provided a way for his saintly seat of character to dwell in us and so those that believe are each made a temple to the living God.

Those that live by the instruction of God’s saintly seat of character have their seat of character created to be like God’s in true righteousness and holiness.

Those that live by their own will have a seat of character that falls short of the glory of God.

Faith that Jesus King of all things in heaven and on earth is the way God has provided for each of us to both receive and live by the seat of character of God.

It is God acting through his own seat of character that does his good works though one who believes and so that one does all that is right.

October 2, 2011 at 4:49 pm#259823

Participant

Kerwin and gene

read this

RO 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect

MK 3:35 “For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

2CO 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

1TH 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1PE 2:15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

1PE 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

1PE 4:19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

1PE 5:2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;
1JN 2:17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

if you do not understand those words ,I could not do it better

October 2, 2011 at 8:36 pm#259828