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Kerwin………..I quoted clear scripture that shows what takes place when a person dies , they have no memory or thoughts of any Kind they are simply dead. But you refuse to accept them as they are written because it does not meet your perceptions of what death is. You fail to realize that our Life after death is completely in the Hand of GOD , and unless we attain unto a RESURRECTION “that witness the redemption of our BODIES ” we simply no longer will exist in any state. Jesus also said to his disciples that every hair on their heads were numbered showing them that nothing was going to be destoryed for ever of then. A simple DNA that can not even be seen with the naked eye can reproduce the exact Person right down to his or her very hairs , this was showing the apostles that their Bodies were Preserved for future reconstruction , God did not create his Physical creation which he lives vicariously (IN) to ever be destoryed He said it was GOOD , Very GOOD. He will deliver it from the bonds of corruption and Preserve it . You teaching on this is simple a mystery religion taught by all Trinitarians and Preexistences.
You Say Jesus taught Parables for people to clearly understand thing so lets see what Jesus said about that.
Mat 13:10…..> And the disciples came and said unto him , Why speak you unto them in Parables? Verse 11…..> He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of GOD, but to them it is NOT GIVEN
Mat 13:13……> Therefore speak I to them in parables:
But there is even more….> because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
This even goes for the Father Himself, Jesus told his disciples that he had spoke to his disciple concerning the Father in Proverbs factious illustrations But a time would come when he would show them plainly about him.
All of the parables can lead to all kind of speculations by people and mysterious teachings there everywhere even here on this site as well as all other sites also.
Kerwin it is absolutely crucial we attain unto the resurrection of the Dead or we simply will not exist as a “LIVING SOUL” ever again, after we die. There is not a after life in the “Neither World” as you falsely believe and teach. Look at the straight forward scriptures i gave you and how you have to change their meanings in order to meet you teachings on this subject. Think about it.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene
Some thoughts Gene.
Things did change after Jesus died and conquered death.
At one stage the enemy had the power of death, but now when we die, we are present with the LORD.
To demonstrate this victory, when Jesus died, the graves were opened.
The dead in Christ rise first.Gene,
Quote Kerwin………..I quoted clear scripture that shows what takes place when a person dies , they have no memory or thoughts of any Kind they are simply dead. You quoted a scripture then you gave your own understanding that I know is wrong because the Hebrew word “rapha'” has only one meaning which is “
Strong’s number 7496.
Quote ghosts of the dead, shades, spirits The following scriptures from the New American Standard version which does a better job on this topic than the KJV.
Quote Job 26:5 “The departed spirits tremble Under the waters and their inhabitants.
Ps 88:10 –
Will You perform wonders for the dead? Will the departed spirits rise and praise You? Selah.
Pr 2:18
For her house sinks down to death And her tracks lead to the dead;
Pr 9:18
But he does not know that the dead are there, That her guests are in the depths of Sheol.Pr 21:16
A man who wanders from the way of understanding Will rest in the assembly of the dead.
Isa 14:9
“Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isa 26:14
The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.
Isa 26:19
Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2011,08:21) Some thoughts Gene. Things did change after Jesus died and conquered death.
At one stage the enemy had the power of death, but now when we die, we are present with the LORD.
To demonstrate this victory, when Jesus died, the graves were opened.
The dead in Christ rise first.
T8………. Thing did change for Jesus his Body came back to life from the dead state he was in, it (his body) did not see corruption that we all know. And know matter what people say it was his original body that rose from that grave.So where are these dead in Christ has anyone seen any of them, I can honestly say i never have as far as i Know and I see no where any disciple has said they seen or spoke to them either or at least they never committed on them anyway. When a Person dies His Soul (Living Body) goes to the grave and corrupts but His spirit that was given by GOD goes back to GOD who gave it in the first place. According to scripture that is.
Sure the dead (IN) Christ rise first (from the state of the dead) where they remained until their resurrection of their Bodies and the Breath of Life is reintroduced into them . Just as the valley of DEAD Bones says. T8 there is no resurrection without a real Body, according to Paul, and Jesus i might add. You or no one here can produce one scripture that shows a person is raised without a Body , not even Jesus was raised without a body and that body was Physical.
While we can inherit the “DIVINE NATURE” we will not Inherit a so-Called “Spirit BODY” which is also and OXYMORON> becasue no such thing exists as a spirit body there is only Physical Bodies with Spirits in them but Spirit has NO BODY. IMO
T8 …..It is exactly like i explained to you about the Pepper Plant even though the original Physical Plant dies, Its seed can fall to the ground and spring forth a new exact replica of the first body and the Spirit of GOD residing (IN) that resurected Body is a spring of Life for ever for it. Why could anyone not want that type of Glorified Body that can live in this Physical world for ever as a Renewed Physical creation of GOD, which can retain it's exact Personality and character driven by the Spirits of GOD placed (IN) them.
T8……> I tell you in all truth MYSTERY RELIGION consumes most about all Christendom . God did not make the crown Jewel of works (this earth) and all creation on it to be destoryed now of for ever. I Personally will be Perfectly Happy with a New resurrected identical Body that can Live for ever Just like Jesus Has. I see nothing wrong with this earth and all creation in it , except How it now behaves, But thank be to GOD that all will Change and GOD will once again say it is Good , Very Good. The next time you walk along a beach or a stream or see a beautiful animal and watch it act out its role God has given it or breath the fresh mountain air or sea coast air, think about this, How could it be any more Perfect then this. No, people can fly around as some kind of unseen Body or what ever , but as for me I like this Plant we call earth and will even like it better when the Father delivers it and me, from it bonds of Corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of GOD.
T8………..If you get time and have the money Purchase the book MISQUOTING OF JESUS, it will amaze you at all the changes that translators have did over the years in fact whole sentences and Paragraphs have been add to the original text to advance Trinitarian and Preexistence ideologies. All these “MYSTERY Teaching about the Neither world and the LIVING DEAD, are nothing more then Pagan ideas and concepts that have corrupted the plain word of GOD. The true resurrection of the dead is clearly shown at the valley of “DEAD BONES” That t8 is what the resurrection of the dead will be like. No MYSTERY NOTHING going on after death.IMO
peace and love to you and your………………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2011,08:35) You quoted a scripture then you gave your own understanding that I know is wrong because the Hebrew word “rapha'” has only one meaning which is “
Kerwin …….> I have quoted many scriptures not just “ONE”, we may have to agree to disagree on this one subject Brother.peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
gene
Quote While we can inherit the “DIVINE NATURE” we will not Inherit a so-Called “Spirit BODY” which is also and OXYMORON> becasue no such thing exists as a spirit body there is only Physical Bodies with Spirits in them but Spirit has NO BODY. IMO confused ,confused,you are confused, but then you only have an OPINION ,so it has to be taken as such,:D
Terriicca……..Right i only have and opinion and that is all you have , you and your Co-harts have never produced one scripture that say Spirit have Bodies If you think your can, Find them, then post them instead of you ignorant and stupid remarks. But Jesus said a Spirit does not have a Body like he has what i have been saying totally agree with Him , so you insolent argument is with Jesus not me.. And if anyone here breeds confusion it is you and your Co-harts IMO> And others also i might add.
peace and love……………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 27 2011,10:50) T8………. Thing did change for Jesus his Body came back to life from the dead state he was in, it (his body) did not see corruption that we all know. And know matter what people say it was his original body that rose from that grave.
And he walked through walls and was able to be translated to Heaven with it.So it obviously his body ceased to be a physical body which is subject to the physical laws of the Universe such as electromagnetism. And it does say, first the physical body, then the spiritual body (regarding us at least). And we know that our lowly bodies will be transformed into a body like his.
NOTE: Electromagnetism is a physical law that stops us walking though walls and other physical objects.
It is what ties us to this world.Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 27 2011,13:10) gene Quote While we can inherit the “DIVINE NATURE” we will not Inherit a so-Called “Spirit BODY” which is also and OXYMORON> becasue no such thing exists as a spirit body there is only Physical Bodies with Spirits in them but Spirit has NO BODY. IMO confused ,confused,you are confused, but then you only have an OPINION ,so it has to be taken as such,:D
Shall we believe you or Paul?45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
Is Jesus an Earthly man or a Heavenly man?
Is he of the dust or of the spirit?Gene! Read these Scriptures very carefully and you will see that Jesus did not get His old Human body back, but a Spiritual body like we will have too…
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
IreneQuote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2011,03:06) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 27 2011,13:10) gene Quote While we can inherit the “DIVINE NATURE” we will not Inherit a so-Called “Spirit BODY” which is also and OXYMORON> becasue no such thing exists as a spirit body there is only Physical Bodies with Spirits in them but Spirit has NO BODY. IMO confused ,confused,you are confused, but then you only have an OPINION ,so it has to be taken as such,:D
Shall we believe you or Paul?45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
Is Jesus an Earthly man or a Heavenly man?
Is he of the dust or of the spirit?
T8,Where is Jesus mentioned in that passage?
All I see is Adam who was both an inward man and an outer man in the age of his flesh. I also know that scripture testifies that the outer man was formed from the ground while the inward man was the spirit of life that God sent from heaven.
I have heard the Gnostics believed that the inward man came first and was imprisoned in the outer man.
Gene, I still see a major flaw in your doctrine.
i.e., if we are given a new spirit, then we are not the same individual any more. We are being replaced by someone else.Because there is nothing unique about what man is in your doctrine, then that uniqueness is not transferred.
You seem to be suggesting that rather than a new spirit, we are given a recyled one.
The same one because we still remain and live, but with all the bad bits taken out with perhaps good bits added.
If this is the case, which part of the spirit remains and which part goes?And if the whole spirit is entirely replaced, then how are WE to attain eternal life?
If we are the spirit, then we are replaced not saved.Instead of giving a lengthy post again, what about just answering these specific points to make it easy to understand.
Hi Kerwin,
Further back in the same chapter is says this:
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.Then after that verse it says:
49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.The theme of the whole section of text here is Adam and Christ and the different bodies.
But I take your point, at that moment it doesn't specifically say that it is Christ.
So who do you say it is? Who else could it be?We know it was the first man was who brought death, so who is the second man who is the life giving spirit. I can think of only one, who is the life.
Also, we know that we will be transformed to be like Christ. That our lowly bodies will be transformed into a body like his.
So it also fits in this context that our old body from Adam which are fleshly will be transferred into the new/last Adam's body which is heavenly and spiritual.Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2011,17:51) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2011,03:06) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 27 2011,13:10) gene Quote While we can inherit the “DIVINE NATURE” we will not Inherit a so-Called “Spirit BODY” which is also and OXYMORON> becasue no such thing exists as a spirit body there is only Physical Bodies with Spirits in them but Spirit has NO BODY. IMO confused ,confused,you are confused, but then you only have an OPINION ,so it has to be taken as such,:D
Shall we believe you or Paul?45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
Is Jesus an Earthly man or a Heavenly man?
Is he of the dust or of the spirit?
T8,Where is Jesus mentioned in that passage?
All I see is Adam who was both an inward man and an outer man in the age of his flesh. I also know that scripture testifies that the outer man was formed from the ground while the inward man was the spirit of life that God sent from heaven.
I have heard the Gnostics believed that the inward man came first and was imprisoned in the outer man.
Kerwinyou to are confused ,and will remain confused until you accept scriptures the way they have been written ,and take the word of God above yours,and also follow the Apostles written words given trough the holy spirit ,
you also seems to not understand that Christ the son of God is not a man (he became a man ) could you not understand what scriptures are saying
Christ = THE WORD OF GOD = SON OF GOD =FIRST OVER ALL CREATION= WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH THE FATHER=
he is the one that came and save us from the law of sin that we received from Adam.
until you can understand this you can not understand the will and the plan of God .
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 26 2011,08:34) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 25 2011,03:44) gene you may never see the light if you do not look for it,
it is not your way but Gods way that you look for light
Pierre
Terricca…………..What you really mean is see Pierre's rendition of light. IMO
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2011,08:58) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 26 2011,20:09) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2011,23:52) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 26 2011,09:55) kerwin the first dead is the sentence to die and not be able to prevented because being separated from God,
the second dead take place after Christ sacrifice ,were all are offered to be reconciled with God and so would not have to die ,but to all who refuse to accept Christ sacrifice for their redemption(of the soul)(no redemption for the flesh is needed) will die the second dead this mean the permanent separation from God .
this is for the soul ,resurrection is to become active as a being.Pierre
Pierre,I know not what scripture Gene speaks of but I do know the body is redeemed from corruption by either being resurrected or changing.
kerwina corrupted body(flesh) cannot be resurrected ,it will be a new body free from corruption that will be given to those who will be resurrected for eternal life,
or as you say changed to go live in heaven.(144k)
Pierre
Pierre,Except for the detail of the 144,000, I am in agreement with your words.
kerwinwhy you do not agree on the 144k the scriptures are very clear that their is only 144000 that are taken from the earth and become brothers in heaven ,
all others are to be resurrected on the earth and serve God there
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 28 2011,06:34) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2011,08:58) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 26 2011,20:09) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2011,23:52) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 26 2011,09:55) kerwin the first dead is the sentence to die and not be able to prevented because being separated from God,
the second dead take place after Christ sacrifice ,were all are offered to be reconciled with God and so would not have to die ,but to all who refuse to accept Christ sacrifice for their redemption(of the soul)(no redemption for the flesh is needed) will die the second dead this mean the permanent separation from God .
this is for the soul ,resurrection is to become active as a being.Pierre
Pierre,I know not what scripture Gene speaks of but I do know the body is redeemed from corruption by either being resurrected or changing.
kerwina corrupted body(flesh) cannot be resurrected ,it will be a new body free from corruption that will be given to those who will be resurrected for eternal life,
or as you say changed to go live in heaven.(144k)
Pierre
Pierre,Except for the detail of the 144,000, I am in agreement with your words.
kerwinwhy you do not agree on the 144k the scriptures are very clear that their is only 144000 that are taken from the earth and become brothers in heaven ,
all others are to be resurrected on the earth and serve God there
Pierre
Pierre,Interpreting prophecy literally can lead one astray as it is sometimes spoken as a symbolic forecast and not a literal one.
The 144,000 are spoken of as 12,000 each of 12 tribes of the decedents of Israel. Both the numbers and the tribes are most likely symbolic of the great multitude spoken of in Revelations 7:9 as all of God's people are sealed according to Revelations 7:3.
12 is known to symbolize the unity of the people of God with God. That is also probably why Jesus chose 12 Apostles as it testified to his purpose to unify the people with God.
The product of 12, 12, and 1000 would be that unity squared and then multiplied by 1000.
I know a remnant is said to be 1 in 1000 in scripture but other than that I have not found out what scripture testifies about that number and its symbolism.
I know little about the known symbolism of the twelve tribes named.
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 28 2011,06:26) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2011,17:51) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2011,03:06) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 27 2011,13:10) gene Quote While we can inherit the “DIVINE NATURE” we will not Inherit a so-Called “Spirit BODY” which is also and OXYMORON> becasue no such thing exists as a spirit body there is only Physical Bodies with Spirits in them but Spirit has NO BODY. IMO confused ,confused,you are confused, but then you only have an OPINION ,so it has to be taken as such,:D
Shall we believe you or Paul?45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
Is Jesus an Earthly man or a Heavenly man?
Is he of the dust or of the spirit?
T8,Where is Jesus mentioned in that passage?
All I see is Adam who was both an inward man and an outer man in the age of his flesh. I also know that scripture testifies that the outer man was formed from the ground while the inward man was the spirit of life that God sent from heaven.
I have heard the Gnostics believed that the inward man came first and was imprisoned in the outer man.
Kerwinyou to are confused ,and will remain confused until you accept scriptures the way they have been written ,and take the word of God above yours,and also follow the Apostles written words given trough the holy spirit ,
you also seems to not understand that Christ the son of God is not a man (he became a man ) could you not understand what scriptures are saying
Christ = THE WORD OF GOD = SON OF GOD =FIRST OVER ALL CREATION= WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH THE FATHER=
he is the one that came and save us from the law of sin that we received from Adam.
until you can understand this you can not understand the will and the plan of God .
Pierre
Pierre,And yet you fail to point out where Christ is mentioned in that passage while I pointed out how Adam is both the Adam from earth and the Adam from heaven.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2011,19:55) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 28 2011,06:26) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2011,17:51) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2011,03:06) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 27 2011,13:10) gene Quote While we can inherit the “DIVINE NATURE” we will not Inherit a so-Called “Spirit BODY” which is also and OXYMORON> becasue no such thing exists as a spirit body there is only Physical Bodies with Spirits in them but Spirit has NO BODY. IMO confused ,confused,you are confused, but then you only have an OPINION ,so it has to be taken as such,:D
Shall we believe you or Paul?45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
Is Jesus an Earthly man or a Heavenly man?
Is he of the dust or of the spirit?
T8,Where is Jesus mentioned in that passage?
All I see is Adam who was both an inward man and an outer man in the age of his flesh. I also know that scripture testifies that the outer man was formed from the ground while the inward man was the spirit of life that God sent from heaven.
I have heard the Gnostics believed that the inward man came first and was imprisoned in the outer man.
Kerwinyou to are confused ,and will remain confused until you accept scriptures the way they have been written ,and take the word of God above yours,and also follow the Apostles written words given trough the holy spirit ,
you also seems to not understand that Christ the son of God is not a man (he became a man ) could you not understand what scriptures are saying
Christ = THE WORD OF GOD = SON OF GOD =FIRST OVER ALL CREATION= WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH THE FATHER=
he is the one that came and save us from the law of sin that we received from Adam.
until you can understand this you can not understand the will and the plan of God .
Pierre
Pierre,And yet you fail to point out where Christ is mentioned in that passage while I pointed out how Adam is both the Adam from earth and the Adam from heaven.
Kerwinwhere is it that the first man Adam as a heavenly copy ?
what Paul is saying ;the like that trough Adam first man sin as enter on earth and it is trough one man Jesus Christ that all sins are removed for those who believe (the second Adam )
one did bring sin and one bring salvation of sin, but Paul does not say that Jesus his Adam in any other way
God send his only begotten son to earth as a man to save men from Adam sin ;what no men could do if he his born from Adam
but Christ is not born from Adam his father is from heaven it is God who bring him forth and who resurrected him after he give us his live as an man for our sins ,
Pierre
Kerwin, Kerwin, you are totally wrong about the 144,000. they are indeed the elect and chosen once…. The multitude in Rev. 7 are after the 144,00. and they are the people from all nations, while the 144,00. are from the nation Israel…they are not the same people….
Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Irene
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