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Hi,
I think this topic is important enough to have it's own forum.It has been the subject of intense debate for some time in other forums and we are no closer to unity.
There are several views based on differing foundations.
My view is that they are separate as Paul speaks of the tent of the body and wishing to fold up that tent so he can be with the Lord. So life exists beyond the death of the body.
The same “us” is resurrected after the death of the body to face judgement or redemption. Our spirit returns to God who gave it as Eccles tells us so that is not our personality. We know the body is of soil and so is mortal so this is not our life either.
1Thess tells us we are of three parts and Hebrews says we can divide between soul and spirit by the Spirit.
Scripture is full of evidence of the existence of Sheol and Hades, and this is not the resting place of the body as it rots away within a short time of burial.
Ps 49 speaks of the need for a habitation that only the saved enjoy.
Lk 16 shows us what these places such as Hades are like and tells us the soul has remarkable abilities without the help of the body.
So let's share our different insights.
Hi,
In common parlance the body is mortal and the soul is immortal. That is because scripture says we sleep in death….which is the first death.The real question is what about the second death. Is the soul destroyed instantly in the second death-the lake of fire?
Mt 10.28
“And do not fear those who kill the body[first death], but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell [second death]”This scripture details the separation between soul and body and..
suggests only the body dies in the first death but ..
that both can be destroyed in the second surely?The biblical equation for who we are is in genesis. God form man from the dust of the ground (body) and breathed into him the breath of life (spirit) and he became a living being (living soul). Ecclessiates tells us that at death the spirit returns to God who gave it and the body returns to the dust where it came from. I believe therefore that we do not have a soul but rather we are a living soul (we are a living being). At death, we are a dead soul. This is why the resurrection is our hope. Jesus is basically telling us to fear Him who can destroy our entire being in Hell. Anyone can destroy our body. It is only God who can destroy not only our body but our whole being.
Quote (Guest @ April 11 2005,12:13) The biblical equation for who we are is in genesis. God form man from the dust of the ground (body) and breathed into him the breath of life (spirit) and he became a living being (living soul). Ecclessiates tells us that at death the spirit returns to God who gave it and the body returns to the dust where it came from. I believe therefore that we do not have a soul but rather we are a living soul (we are a living being). At death, we are a dead soul. This is why the resurrection is our hope. Jesus is basically telling us to fear Him who can destroy our entire being in Hell. Anyone can destroy our body. It is only God who can destroy not only our body but our whole being.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Succinct and clear!Let's see what Jesus & the Word says:
Luke 16: 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Here we see these are certain people, not hypothetical, either way our Lord is saying where the soul was and the consequences of our actions here on earth. Note, they had complete memory of their lives before passing to this place. Also note that the events are before the death and ressurrection of Christ.
Matthew 17: 1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Here we see Jesus conversing to Moses and Elija.
Rev 6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Notice the souls talk to God before they are given white robes! They're location is “under the altar”
Rev 1: 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass
These are actual events, not just merely visions.
Mark 12: 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Hi Nick,
It's been a while! I see you are still posting away like crazy. Personally, I am just trying to get through some basic scripture studies. Anyway, here's some food for thought:
When you say that only the body dies at death, you are saying that a man does not really die. You are saying that he lives on just the same, only in a different form. (In other words, sin does not result in death, only the loss of a body.) It reminds me of the serpent's response to Eve in the garden when she brought up YHWH's warning about sin.
Genesis 3:4
“Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die.'”However, YHWH said plainly that sin results in death.
Ezekiel 18:4 (This is YHWH speaking.)
“Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.”(By the way, read all of Ezekiel 18. It is gives the standard by which YHWH grants us life or takes it away.)
I agree with Greg's post, and it is inclusive of Rudy's. Both are true.
You live if God says you live, and dead if God says you're dead; and the second death is a different experience than the first, I believe. I think it'll make the first death desirable to those who hate God.I don't have the JW's view that teaches that man simply dies and goes into oblivion. The main thing that convinces me of that besides the scriptures is life itself. What God said to Adam has come to pass and it's been at least six thousand years with the same effects. We experience the fall daily, everywhere on the planet. That says to me that, God means what he says and I wouldn't gamble with eternity.
Whether or not there are two or three parts to man, …I have to go along with Greg's post.
In Christ we have already passed from Death unto Life. We have life now, and when we shed this mortal body. Those who don't have this life are reserved for Judgement
Quote (Guest @ April 11 2005,12:13) The biblical equation for who we are is in genesis. God form man from the dust of the ground (body) and breathed into him the breath of life (spirit) and he became a living being (living soul). Ecclessiates tells us that at death the spirit returns to God who gave it and the body returns to the dust where it came from. I believe therefore that we do not have a soul but rather we are a living soul (we are a living being). At death, we are a dead soul. This is why the resurrection is our hope. Jesus is basically telling us to fear Him who can destroy our entire being in Hell. Anyone can destroy our body. It is only God who can destroy not only our body but our whole being.
Hi Greg,
Those who take a simplistic view of Genesis 2 do not see that there is spoken of in scripture anOUTER MAN
and an
INNER MANwho are in conflict.
Man dies when the outer man[body]perishes. But the inner man sleeps in the earth to be woken and reclothed at the sound of the archangel's voice.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 11 2005,20:19) Quote (Guest @ April 11 2005,12:13) The biblical equation for who we are is in genesis. God form man from the dust of the ground (body) and breathed into him the breath of life (spirit) and he became a living being (living soul). Ecclessiates tells us that at death the spirit returns to God who gave it and the body returns to the dust where it came from. I believe therefore that we do not have a soul but rather we are a living soul (we are a living being). At death, we are a dead soul. This is why the resurrection is our hope. Jesus is basically telling us to fear Him who can destroy our entire being in Hell. Anyone can destroy our body. It is only God who can destroy not only our body but our whole being.
Hi Greg,
Those who take a simplistic view of Genesis 2 do not see that there is spoken of in scripture anOUTER MAN
and an
INNER MANwho are in conflict.
Man dies when the outer man[body]perishes. But the inner man sleeps in the earth to be woken and reclothed at the sound of the archangel's voice.
Nick, isn't the inner man the spirit that God breathed into the clay, and isn't that what we are concerned with as regards eternal life?edited for clarity, I hope.
Quote Hi WIT,
Good to see you back though we still have to meet on the bridge.Yes, and here is the gate that keeps me from crossing that bridge:
Isaiah 43:10
“'You are My witnesses,' says [YHVH],
'And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.'”May YHWH bless you in your searching Nick.
Hey Wit,
I worship that God. I worship no other God. You are not still disagreeing with scripture that there are other gods though are you?Quote (Cubes @ April 11 2005,21:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 11 2005,20:19) Quote (Guest @ April 11 2005,12:13) The biblical equation for who we are is in genesis. God form man from the dust of the ground (body) and breathed into him the breath of life (spirit) and he became a living being (living soul). Ecclessiates tells us that at death the spirit returns to God who gave it and the body returns to the dust where it came from. I believe therefore that we do not have a soul but rather we are a living soul (we are a living being). At death, we are a dead soul. This is why the resurrection is our hope. Jesus is basically telling us to fear Him who can destroy our entire being in Hell. Anyone can destroy our body. It is only God who can destroy not only our body but our whole being.
Hi Greg,
Those who take a simplistic view of Genesis 2 do not see that there is spoken of in scripture anOUTER MAN
and an
INNER MANwho are in conflict.
Man dies when the outer man[body]perishes. But the inner man sleeps in the earth to be woken and reclothed at the sound of the archangel's voice.
Nick, isn't the inner man the spirit that God breathed into the clay, and isn't that what we are concerned with as regards eternal life?edited for clarity, I hope.
Hi cubes,
God says that man is dust and unto dust he shall return. That speaks of the outer man as he was first created -a lifeless shell.God breathed into that shell and man became a living[spirit] being [soul]. That is the inner man.That spirit goes back to God at death leaving the sleeping soul in the earth.
Paul tells us christians the being, the inner man is constantly being renewed in the likeness of Jesus. We must be tranformed by the renewing of our heart and mind[soul]
To be renewed we must exist in some form prior to that renewal process surely.That is soul, the inner man.
Quote (Rudy @ April 11 2005,17:52) Let's see what Jesus & the Word says: Luke 16: 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Here we see these are certain people, not hypothetical, either way our Lord is saying where the soul was and the consequences of our actions here on earth. Note, they had complete memory of their lives before passing to this place. Also note that the events are before the death and ressurrection of Christ.
Matthew 17: 1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Here we see Jesus conversing to Moses and Elija.
Rev 6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Notice the souls talk to God before they are given white robes! They're location is “under the altar”
Rev 1: 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass
These are actual events, not just merely visions.
Mark 12: 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Thank you Rudy,
Many ignore or denigrate this scripture in Luke and wish it did not exist as it destroys their false concepts of soul\body indivisibility.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 11 2005,21:34) Quote Hi WIT,
Good to see you back though we still have to meet on the bridge.Yes, and here is the gate that keeps me from crossing that bridge:
Isaiah 43:10
“'You are My witnesses,' says [YHVH],
'And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.'”May YHWH bless you in your searching Nick.
Hi WIT,
By your logic there are no idol worshippers.There is no idolatry.When God says “before Me” he is not saying there was a time before He existed because that is nonsense. But He is talking surely about the time when He revealed Himself as God to the Israelites. Before then no other “Gods” were formed by Him as equal to Him to be worshipped by men.
But the Son of God had divine nature as the image of the Father. He never was equal to God despite what trintarians teach. Men make their own gods too. But only the Father is “The God” to be worshipped as Jesus instructed us.
In Daniel 12: 1-4, Daniel talks of the end of the age where it says, “Many that sleep in the dust shall awake to everlasting life.” This “sleep” is referring to the physical body sleeping, not the soul or spirit. Our spirit is the “real us.” We are a spirit and have a soul (mind, will and emotions) that lives in a body. There is a cultic teaching that talks about “soul sleep” which is not scriptural. When people die, they do not enter into a state of eternal sleep, neither do they cease to exist. When we die, our body will go into the ground to decay and return to dust, but our body is not who we really are (Genesis 3:19). Our spirit, when we die, goes either to hell or to be with the Father in heaven. There is no in-between place, heavenly sleep or state of non-existence.
Hi Rudy,
Lk 16 is identified as Hades, the place of waiting before judgement, and it is cast into the Lake of Fire in Rev 20.14 when it is no longer required.The Psalms and Job are full of references to Sheol too, a place where the soul goes.
Lazarus and others were said not to be dead but asleep and 1Cor 15.51 and 1Thess 4.13 also speak of those who sleep.
What is your understanding of these scriptural facts?Quote (Rudy @ April 12 2005,00:21) In Daniel 12: 1-4, Daniel talks of the end of the age where it says, “Many that sleep in the dust shall awake to everlasting life.” This “sleep” is referring to the physical body sleeping, not the soul or spirit. Our spirit is the “real us.” We are a spirit and have a soul (mind, will and emotions) that lives in a body. There is a cultic teaching that talks about “soul sleep” which is not scriptural. When people die, they do not enter into a state of eternal sleep, neither do they cease to exist. When we die, our body will go into the ground to decay and return to dust, but our body is not who we really are (Genesis 3:19). Our spirit, when we die, goes either to hell or to be with the Father in heaven. There is no in-between place, heavenly sleep or state of non-existence.
Hi Rudy,
Sleep of the body, defined as that tent returning literally to dust seems an unlikely event.So when is judgement, or do you say there is none if we go straight to heaven or hell?
I fear you may have absorbed some of the worlds myths and legends and not revealed truth on these matters.
Believers (prior to the payment of sin) were kept in Abraham's bosom which was separated by a “gulf” from sheol (hell). This gulf is nothing more than a separation by a vast empty space which no-one can cross. The unregenerate (NOT-born of the spirit of God) are reserved in hell for judgement. Christ paid the price for sin allowing those in “Abraham's Bosom” to be transferred to the throne of God.
Ephesians 4: 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
The lower parts of the earth were the location of “Abraham's Bosom” and Hell itself. Though the difference is the absence of torment.
Yahweh could not have man in his presence until the completed work of Christ was accomplished on the cross. The price had to be paid for first. Those captive in the lower parts were awake, not asleep! They we're reconciled with us by the price of Christ's blood which was required on the heavenly mercy seat before they/we could appear or exist in the presence of our most Holy God.
Moses and Elija were seen with Jesus at the transfiguration, they were not in the presence of God prior to this event.
Notice that after the resurrection that many that had died were risen once free from captivity in “Abraham's Bosom”.
Matthew 27: 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
The dead in Christ didn't get out:
Rev. 20: 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This refers to the physical and soul ressurrection and judgement.
Now that the mercy seat has been sprinkled with the blood of Christ we go directly to the Father when this earthly tabernacle passes away. The Old Testament believers (by faith) had direct access to the throne through prayer just as we do currently. But they could NOT be in the presence of the Father until the payment for sin, Lamb of God, had paid the price.
–added for clarity!
Our physical body is asleep with out our soul & spirit, because we shall live again in a “Glorified Body”, therefore we, soul and spirit, are not DEAD or asleep. Unlike those who died in their sins, they are truly dead and will not live again. They forfeited their opportunity by rejecting The one and ONLY Salvation and are therefore reserved for judgement.
Life is to be in Christ. Death is to be separated from God!
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