The Son of man

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 18 2009,13:46)

There is a state of sin that we are born into as a result of Adam's sin. This is different from transgression. Inherent sin is separation from God, which is why infants need a believing parent to cover them, according to my understanding. What do you think?

Hi Oxy:

There is no mention of “inherant sin” in the scriptures, and the definition of “sin” is the transgression of the law.

What we did inherit from our parents is a body of flesh and blood, a mortal body. All of humanity, including Jesus inherited this body, and we also inherited a world where the temptations for the lusts of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life abound.

I need to pray for understanding of this, but I do not see anything called inherant sin in the scriptures.

It appears to me that an infant that is born of unsaved parents is unclean because of the parents sin. He is born with a mortal body, but is in innocence and so he will not be judged nor will he be saved unless one or both of the parents become Christians. At this point they are a part of the body of Christ, under the law of their parents who are following Christ.

Marty

January 18, 2009 at 3:59 am#118096

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 17 2009,19:28)

Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 18 2009,13:46)

Hi Oxy:

There is no mention of “inherant sin” in the scriptures, and the definition of “sin” is the transgression of the law.

I need to pray for understanding of this, but I do not see anything called inherant sin in the scriptures.

Marty

Hi Marty,

Could you explain a little more and maybe give what scriptures draw you to conclude that a child is under their parents when it comes to being saved or not?

One thing that I also have been meaning to ask you dear brother is your understanding on the time frame of which God has allowed for people to be saved? We have talked about this before, and my understanding is that most won't come to accept God until after the second resurrection. Corrrect me if I am wrong but it seems as if you believe that the bible and those teaching it, are the only measures of which God gave for a person to become saved.

What I find interesting is the fact that the disciples after ALL the time they spent with Jesus and after all they had witnessed from him, that they still chose before his crucifixion to DENY him, but yet Jesus still went to them after his resurrection and had the Holy Spirit come to them after he left them. Also, when we look at all the mercy that God gave to the Israelites, I just don't see how 'being saved' becomes such a black and white issue.

Something else that I would like to add. In the book of Acts we see people repenting and being baptized, then having the Holy Spirit come upon them giving them a special gift. I DO NOT SEE THIS HAPPENING TODAY. Yes, people get baptized, but even as a child watching people get baptized in our family swimming pool, I have yet to witness some sort of significant change or gift be bestowed upon the person who was baptized. It seems to me that which occurred in Acts was a unique and special happening, it was not meant that anyone, anywhere, anytime repenting of their sins, being baptized, would ALL of the sudden receive a significant outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

January 18, 2009 at 4:16 am#118099

Participant

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 18 2009,14:59)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 17 2009,19:28)

Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 18 2009,13:46)

Hi Oxy:

There is no mention of “inherant sin” in the scriptures, and the definition of “sin” is the transgression of the law.

I need to pray for understanding of this, but I do not see anything called inherant sin in the scriptures.

Marty

Hi Marty,

Could you explain a little more and maybe give what scriptures draw you to conclude that a child is under their parents when it comes to being saved or not?

Hi Jodi:

I will try to get back to you on this on Monday night.

God Bless

January 18, 2009 at 6:02 pm#118183

Participant

Hi Oxy,
Paul was not separate from God but joined with Him in Christ.

Rom7
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

January 18, 2009 at 6:39 pm#118185

meerkat

Participant

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 18 2009,16:59)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 17 2009,19:28)

Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 18 2009,13:46)

Hi Oxy:

There is no mention of “inherant sin” in the scriptures, and the definition of “sin” is the transgression of the law.

I need to pray for understanding of this, but I do not see anything called inherant sin in the scriptures.

Marty

Hi Marty,

Could you explain a little more and maybe give what scriptures draw you to conclude that a child is under their parents when it comes to being saved or not?

Jodi,

I have been thinking that the instructions in Acts to be baptised and saved has a lot to do with being “saved” from the 70AD judgement against the Jews.

January 18, 2009 at 6:51 pm#118187

Participant

Hi Jodi,
Where is this opportunity to believe for salvation after the second resurrection shown in scripture?

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Mt25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

January 20, 2009 at 2:24 am#118354

Participant

Hi Jodi:

You ask:

Quote

Could you explain a little more and maybe give what scriptures draw you to conclude that a child is under their parents when it comes to being saved or not?

My understanding is that children will be saved if one or the other or both are Christian parents, and that understanding is based on the following scriptures:

Quote

1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Quote

Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

Your next comments are:

Quote

My understanding is that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of all who have obeyed God from the beginning to the end. In the NT era the commission of the church is to “go into all of the world and preach the gospel”, and John 3:16-`8 states:

Quote

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Every man has the opportunity to repent while he is alive, but after he is physically dead, his fate is sealed. This is the point that Jesus was making in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31).

Yes, I believe that gospel which has been preached in the world is the only avenue whereby man can be saved.

Quote

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Quote

Jhn 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Jhn 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
Jhn 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

You did a good job in your study about Satan, but I do not see how you can possibly justify your understanding that most won't accept God until after the second resurrection.

You say:

Quote

There is no question that God is merciful, and He will do every thing in His power to get men to repent, but He won't force any one to obey Him. He was merciful to the disciples who denied Jesus, but they all repented.

God is a God of love, but He is also a God of justice.

Quote

1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

And then you say:

Quote

Something else that I would like to add. In the book of Acts we see people repenting and being baptized, then having the Holy Spirit come upon them giving them a special gift. I DO NOT SEE THIS HAPPENING TODAY. Yes, people get baptized, but even as a child watching people get baptized in our family swimming pool, I have yet to witness some sort of significant change or gift be bestowed upon the person who was baptized. It seems to me that which occurred in Acts was a unique and special happening, it was not meant that anyone, anywhere, anytime repenting of their sins, being baptized, would A
LL of the sudden receive a significant outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Just because you haven't witnessed any of this does not mean that it isn't happening. The baptism of the Holy Spirit should be received if a person believes and has repented in sincerety. Gifts of the Spirit are for mature Christians not for babes in Christ.

I am praying that God will show you that many people are receiving the Holy Ghost and that their lives are being transformed at present just as it was in the Acts of the Apostles.

Marty

January 20, 2009 at 4:13 am#118365

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 18 2009,10:51)

Hi Jodi,
Where is this opportunity to believe for salvation after the second resurrection shown in scripture?

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Mt25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Hi Nick,

The judgment has to do with what people did according to what they were given. I can SEE CLEARLY that most people God has yet to show His salvation to. I can see clearly that God has yet to work his Spirit into all men. Just look around you, we are not in an age where the world knows God, and Jesus himself declared that the world does not know God only a selected few have come to know Him. The judgment will be a time where many people for the first time will LEARN right from wrong, and some will have to suffer punishment in order to draw them away from their dysfunctional ways.

January 20, 2009 at 4:18 am#118366

Participant

Hi Jodi,
This will be a popular idea.
Proving it from scripture will be more difficult.
When Christ returns there will be no more added to his completed body.
All will not be saved

January 20, 2009 at 4:42 am#118371

Participant

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 20 2009,15:13)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 18 2009,10:51)

Hi Jodi,
Where is this opportunity to believe for salvation after the second resurrection shown in scripture?

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Mt25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Hi Nick,

Hi Jodi:

That will be too late. God is calling men into a relationship with Him now, but men choose to go on doing their own thing.

Quote

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

They didn't believe Noah then, and many are not believing the gospel message now.

January 20, 2009 at 5:23 am#118373

Participant

Hi Marty, you said, “Every man has the opportunity to repent while he is alive, but after he is physically dead, his fate is sealed.”

Brother, I really don't see how you can see that this is a true statement, and still have faith in God at the same time. Not only can Christians not agree on what the TRUTH is, which you would think that if the bible was the means to people's salvation He would have left some existing original transcripts and would have made just one language and one culture so that we could take every word and see it in it's proper context.

When we look around today, it is apparent that people do not know God, they have NOT rejected Him, they do not know Him at all. Those who do hear of Him often immediately reject Him because the preachers are teaching lies about Him, making Him look like an unintelligent cruel god.

Marty we do not choose God He chooses us. You said that the disciples repented AFTER they denied Jesus. You want to submit people to eternal death when they have never even met the guy?

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all that I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans had come to Him, they urged Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. 41 And many more believed because of His own word. 42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

Mark 16:14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. 15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Marty the Eleven were specifically sent out by Jesus, and they were given great powers, able to perform miracles, signs and wonders. I think that this scripture hardly shows that EVERY person who has ever lived since then has now had a fair chance to know and accept Jesus, because he sent out Eleven people.

What GOSPEL has gone out into the entire world, it seems that every preacher has a different gospel?

Marty you said, “after a person is physically dead his fate is sealed.” It truly boggles my mind that you would say such a thing.

If this were true our God would be a complete failure, He would be a joke, and His Spirit would not be all powerful, but weak and pathetic.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Marty think about WHY it is said that ALL shall be made alive. Is it because all people accepted Jesus before they died? No, we know that's not true. Is it because God wants to raise people from the dead so He can turn around and kill them again? That does not make sense either. All died in Adam, all will be made alive. Every person is going to be resurrected so they can have the opportunity to be filled once and for all with the knowledge of God.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

As one man brought sin and death to all in the world, Jesus is going to bring righteousness and life to all in the world. The enemies that Jesus will put under his feet are the evil ways of man, but not man himself. This is why it says that all things will be made subject to God, and God will be all in all. God's ways today do not rule the earth, but when Christ returns it will, and upon the second resurrection all people will be made subject to God.

Looking forward to hearing back from you,

Blessing and love, Jodi

January 20, 2009 at 6:01 am#118382

Participant

Hi Jodi,
That is a sound myth.
Born of hope and humanism and not fact I guess.

January 20, 2009 at 6:08 am#118384

chosenone

Participant

Hi Jodi.
A very good post. We may not always agree what scripture says, but I agree with you in what God is doing. Don't be discouraged by some on this site. God Bless.

Jerry.

January 20, 2009 at 6:39 am#118397

Participant

Hi Jodi,
You say
“God's ways today do not rule the earth, but when Christ returns it will, and upon the second resurrection all people will be made subject to God.”

The door into Christ will be closed.
So the heathen nations will be ruled by a King in whom God lives-Jesus.
They will indeed bend the knee.

January 20, 2009 at 6:57 am#118401

chosenone

Participant

Hi Jodi.
Don't believe the heretical “one eternal gospel for all” that Nick teaches, it is non-biblical, and a lie.

January 21, 2009 at 4:52 am#118529

Participant

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 20 2009,16:23)

Hi Marty, you said, “Every man has the opportunity to repent while he is alive, but after he is physically dead, his fate is sealed.”

Marty we do not choose God He chooses us. You said that the disciples repented AFTER they denied Jesus. You want to submit people to eternal death when they have never even met the guy?

What GOSPEL has gone out into the entire world, it seems that every preacher has a different gospel?

Marty you said, “after a person is physically dead his fate is sealed.” It truly boggles my mind that you would say such a thing.

If this were true our God would be a complete failure, He would be a joke, and His Spirit would not be all powerful, but weak and pathetic.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Looking forward to hearing back from you,

Blessing and love, Jodi

Hi Jodi:

If I am a Christian, then people should see the life of Jesus manifested through the life that I live.

The gospel is this:

Quote

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Quote

1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Only those who are in Christ shall be raised to eternal life.

Quote

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Those who are have rejected his salvation will be judged according to their works. If alive at his coming for the church, they will be judged by the seven last plagues. If they died in their sins, they will be judged according to their works at the second resurrection. This is the second death. The wages of sin is death.

Quote

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Quote

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Quote

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Sorry, Jodi if you think that people will come to know God after the second resurrection, I believe that this is a misconception.

I don't know if I have addressed all of your concerns on this matter, but I don't have time since I am getting off work shortly.

I'm praying that God will give you revelation knowledge of the truth.

God Bless

January 21, 2009 at 6:16 am#118550

Participant

Let me clarify my understanding to you Marty.

Jesus Christ died so ALL could be resurrected. I am not saying in anyway that all people are resurrected into eternal life. The first resurrection is people raised immortal the second resurrection people are raised once again with a mortal body.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

All people will be made alive, but not immortal.

Those of the first resurrection are those who God specifically called during this time, those that believed in Jesus and died in Jesus. These are the ONLY people that are 'resurrected' into eternal life.

The rest are resurrected into judgment, they are once again given a mortal body, this is why it is said that the adversary after the 1,000 years is released. The adversary will be released but this time instead of God allowing the adversary to carry on and rule, the adversary is going to be defeated. At the second resurrection when carnal nature is once again set free, YHWH is going to put a final end to it. Carnal nature will be cast into the fire to be refined and made righteous through the work of the Holy Spirit. Everyone will be filled with the knowledge of God, and the rest of mankind will repent and accept Jesus and receive their glorious change. After this, all enemies will be underfoot, the last enemy death will be destroyed because all sin from every man will have been removed. Jesus will then give over the kingdom to YHWH and He will come down and dwell with us, and be ALL in ALL.

God Bless, Jodi

January 21, 2009 at 6:39 am#118561

Participant

Hi Jodi,
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

ALL are not in Christ.
All will not be when he returns.
Thence all cannot be till the residue is removed.

January 21, 2009 at 3:11 pm#118580