- This topic is empty.
- Posts
- nick wrote:
[/quote]
Ou computer mouse is on the blink and needs to be replaced. In the mean time i'll will keep my posts brief and produce scriptural support at a later date.NH you wrote:
“Satan is called a “god” too.
Using your word does that make him ontologically the same as God?”Its a qualified statement. He is god of this world. It's a designation that simply means he has temporal authority over the world (Matt 4:8). So obviously ontology doesn't come into it. Jesus is simply called God BY The Father and others……this is entirely different.
You also wrote: “Scripture says there are “many gods”.
Are they all ontologically the same as God, or Jesus, or Satan”If you look a the context on 1 Cor 8 you see Paul is contrasting the pagan false gods with Father and Son. The Bible also makes it clear elsewhere that these “gods” are in fact 'false gods'….Is Yashua a false god or a false god? If it's the former where does scripture describe a true “god”?
Quote Don't miss the wood for the trees.
It is really quite simple.
Amen.David:
Isaiah 10:20-21
“Now it will come about in that day that the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. 21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.“Jer. 32:18
“who showest lovingkindness to thousands, but repayest the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God. the LORD of hosts is His name.”YHWH is also called mighty (Heb. gibbor) God. Does this mean that He is a lesser kind of God too??
Obviously someone who is ALMIGHTY can be described as “mighty.” Someone who is Almighty (and there is only one described as such) is All mighty. How mighty? All mighty.
Is 1:18, there is a grand difference between being Almighty and mighty. Is 1:18, most likely even you could be described as mighty in certain respects. Humans can be called mighty, and are in scripture.
No one questions that Jesus is mighty, or the God is mighty. The question is how mighty are each?
By showing the scriptures that you did, you proved that God is mighty. We could similary prove that Jesus is mighty. Obviously, the “son of God” would be mighty. But if you could show me a scripture that says Jesus is “almighty,” that may actually prove something.One (Jesus) is only ever described as mighty, a word which can apply to humans.
The other is referred to as “Almighty” 43 times.It's the difference between saying something is large, and saying something is infinitely large, or saying something lasts a long time and saying something is infinitely long. Jesus is described as Mighty. Jehovah as Almighty. There is a difference.
“All scripture which is inspired of God and beneficial for setting things straight.” (2 Tim 3:16)
Perhaps, God just didn't get around to inspiring the thought that Jesus is Almighty. Or, more likely, Jesus is mighty as scripture says, but not almighty,Hi David,
Whether or not 'mighty' can be applied to men, angels or any other being is not the point. Manifestly it can, and is. What is in contention, David, is the designation “Mighty God” (Gibbor El). If this is applied to YHWH, how can it possibly denote a lesser category of being? Obviously it can't. So your premise that “There is a grand difference between being “mighty” and being “almighty” is invalid.Also, can you prove to me beyond all doubt that in all 43 instances where “Almighty” is applied to God that it refers exclusively to The Father?
Quote So your premise that “There is a grand difference between being “mighty” and being “almighty” is invalid. No it's not. It's extremley valid.
Quote If this is applied to YHWH, how can it possibly denote a lesser category of being? Obviously it can't. This is incorrect reasoning. Being called “mighty” does not denote a lesser category of being. But being called “almighty” denotes that Jehovah isn't limited in his might, whereas someone that is mighty, is.
Here are some expressions: ok, fine, good, great, and “infinitely amazingly the best,”
You, Is 1:18 may be good or great, and those words might fit. Jehovah can also be described as “good,” as Jesus said. But at the same time, if the last expression fits him, and yet, it doesn't fit you. There is a huge difference between being “good,” and being the best.
LOGIC tells us that if someone is the best, they are obviously good. To call them good, does not take away the fact that they are the best.But if someone is only ever called good, on what basis do you have to believe that they are the best?
Quote Also, can you prove to me beyond all doubt that in all 43 instances where “Almighty” is applied to God that it refers exclusively to The Father?
Yes.Quote But being called “almighty” denotes that Jehovah isn't limited in his might, whereas someone that is mighty, is. 
[/quote]Isaiah 10:20-21
“Now it will come about in that day that the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. 21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.“Jer. 32:18
“who showest lovingkindness to thousands, but repayest the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God. the LORD of hosts is His name.”[/color]So, by this reasoning YHWH is “limited in his might”. You are tying yourself in knots David.
Quote But being called “almighty” denotes that Jehovah isn't limited in his might, whereas someone that is mighty, is. [/color=black]Isaiah 10:20-21
“Now it will come about in that day that the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. 21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.“Jer. 32:18
“who showest lovingkindness to thousands, but repayest the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God. the LORD of hosts is His name.”[/color]So, by this reasoning YHWH is “limited in his might”. You are tying yourself in knots David.
Quote Here are some expressions: ok, fine, good, great, and “infinitely amazingly the best,” You, Is 1:18 may be good or great, and those words might fit. Jehovah can also be described as “good,” as Jesus said. But at the same time, if the last expression fits him, and yet, it doesn't fit you. There is a huge difference between being “good,” and being the best.
LOGIC tells us that if someone is the best, they are obviously good. To call them good, does not take away the fact that they are the best.But if someone is only ever called good, on what basis do you have to believe that they are the best?
David,
I have to remind you again that the word “Gibbor” is not the issue. It's the combination “El Gibbor”.Quote
Also, can you prove to me beyond all doubt that in all 43 instances where “Almighty” is applied to God that it refers exclusively to The Father?Yes.
Ok then…..lets have the proof.All power is All power, so then Christ if not God, who is over us?
That would mean God is NOT in control, Jesus is. Because ALL POWER is HIS (Jesus) 'till His enemies are His footstool, so apparently God the Father has no power right now and as the song says, “God is in control…” is incorrect and others who deny the deity of Christ there is NO God over us at this moment.
Quote (Rudy @ May 21 2006,03:01) All power is All power, so then Christ if not God, who is over us? That would mean God is NOT in control, Jesus is. Because ALL POWER is HIS (Jesus) 'till His enemies are His footstool, so apparently God the Father has no power right now and as the song says, “God is in control…” is incorrect and others who deny the deity of Christ there is NO God over us at this moment.
Good point Rudy. Amen.Hi tbfu,
The Word is truth. Jesus said so.
“Jn 17.17
” Sanctify them in the truth;Your Word is truth'It is the scriptural foundation upon which we build a sound building of faith that can withstand the storms of life.
Mt 7.24
” Therefore anyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock..”But men came along and said
“This bit or that bit I do not like so it is allegory, or a lost idiom. This word does not mean what it says but is only a title. We know more now so we no longer believe in this primitive stuff about demons. John was influenced by the gnostics and Paul was antagonistic to women.”Come on guys. If it is the Word of God it is pure and it is eternal
andJesus really is the Son of God.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2006,03:05) Quote (Rudy @ May 21 2006,03:01) All power is All power, so then Christ if not God, who is over us? That would mean God is NOT in control, Jesus is. Because ALL POWER is HIS (Jesus) 'till His enemies are His footstool, so apparently God the Father has no power right now and as the song says, “God is in control…” is incorrect and others who deny the deity of Christ there is NO God over us at this moment.
Good point Rudy. Amen.
Hi Is 1.18,
Why would anyone try to put a wedge between the Father and the Son and their work in unity?God absolutely trusts the Son and leaves the Lordship to Him while He remains his God , the God to whom all things are eventually made subject again by the Son.[1Cor 15]
Hey Rudy,
Jesus was given all power by the Father, how does that make him the ultimate controller of all things.
Hi Artizan007,
Quote How is Most High in relation to Jesus. I don't see it in those verses. How do you see it is Jesus? The Ancient of Days pronounces in favour of his people. Rev 12:17 says he wages war against those keeping God's commands and hold fast to the testimony of Jesus. Daniel 7:13-14
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.cf.
Daniel 7:27
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.cf.
Matthew 11:27
All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.and;
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.and;
Ephesians 1:21-22
21[Christ, vs. 20]far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church.Aside from these the verses that i've appealed to that show the Saints of the Most High are in fact 'saints of Yahshua', it's clear the The “Ancient of Days” and the “Most High” are two distinct personages in the Daniel text. One gives dominion, and glory and a kingdom (vs. 14), and one recieves it. The Most High is identified as having the Kingdom and dominion. Therefore, by default, He must be the “one like the Son of Man” in vs. 13.
Quote Revelation 13:6 Says the beast will blaspheme God, not Jesus and he makes war against God's people not the saints of Jesus if i am making sense.
I would argue to blaspheme God is to blaspheme Yahshua:Luke 10:16
“The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”John 5:23
“so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.”1 John 2:23
“Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.”Quote First and Last in Revelation 1:17, 2:8… no worries with that: but notice when speaking of Jesus in v18 it says… First and Last, I am the living one, , and now look … and again 2:8 it says: First and Last, [who died] and [came back to life]… that is the title for Jesus.
But the point is “first and last” is a title YHWH used of Himself in Isaiah:Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Isaiah 48:12
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; [/b]I am the first, I also am the last.[/b]Quote The First and Last, the {one who died} and is [now] {alive for evermore}.
Yes, but these words just confirm that it is Yahshua Who is the speakier, and gave Himself a titles used solely for YHWH in the OT…..am I making sense?Quote Paul confirms this as well in Romans 8 34 when he says:
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ {that died}, yea rather, that is {risen again}, who is even at the right hand of God, {who also maketh intercession for us}.
No one would argue with you that Yahshua died and rose again – well some would :-0But the point is “first and last”, “beginning and end”, “aleph and tau”, “alpha and omega” – these are title for the Most High God.
Quote Jesus is not the Alpha and Omega as far as I can see: Revelation 22:13 as I see it, is speaking of God and not Christ. It is not the revelation given by Jesus but too Jesus from the Father, so the speaker is relaying God's message to Jesus, from Jesus to the Speaker then to John who writes it down. verse 6 The angel says the LORD God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his sevants the things that must soon take place. v 9 He says, worship God…
Jesus is clearly recorded as speaking in Revelation, as is evidenced by Rev 2:8:Revelation 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;The speaker here “was dead” but is “now alive”. This could only be Yahshua's recorded words. There are many other passages in Revelation where the speaker is manifestly Yahshua. The fact that Yahshua's words are recorded in Revelation is not really argued at all.
Revelation 22:12 records that the subject of vs. 13 is “coming quickly”. We are told numerous times in scripture to expect the coming of Yahshua. Not once are we told to expect The Father. Therefore, it stand to reason that the “Alpha and Omega” in vs. 13 is Yahshua.Quote Titus 2:13 – debatable!! 😉 could be taken either way… so I don’t know enough to comment.
He he, Artizan007 ALL verses that explicitly reveal the Deity of Christ are “debated”. So it’s not surprising that Titus 2:13 falls into this category…..The issue is how valid is the objection?On lexical grounds it’s not really much of a debate. In the original Greek, Titus 2:13 has a Granville Sharpe construction.
“The Granville Sharpe rule of Greek grammar states that when two nouns are join by kai (and) and the first noun has the article and the second does not, then the two nouns refer to the same thing, Hence, great God and Savior' both refer to Christ Jesus.” (The Moody Handbook of Theology, p. 225).
2 Peter 1:1 is another verse where the GSR comes into effect.
And aside from the clear grammatical evidence, WHOSE appearing are we expecting?Titus 2:13
“looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus”Be blessed
Hey Guys,
How do i quote then reply and then quote again as Is 1:18 has done in his reply to my questions…
Thanks
Click 'quote' at the top of Is 1:18's last post, and have a look at the tags in his post that will show up in the 'original post to quote' box
Quote So, by this reasoning YHWH is “limited in his might”. You are tying yourself in knots David. No, I'm trying to untwist your odd reasoning. Do you really not understand what I'm saying?
Let's take this in steps:
Is there a difference between “mighty” and “almighty.”
YES.
What's the difference?
Mighty: Possessing great power and strength.
Almighty: omnipotent (meaning, having unlimited power)
1. Does someone described as almighty (having unlimited power) have “great power and strength”?
YES, without question.2. Does someone described as mighty (having great power and strength) have unlimited power?
He may, or he may not. (With the exception of God, No.)What I was saying, which you should understand (I used an example) was that if someone is described as 'mighty,' then they are mighty. They have great power and strength. Do they have infinite power and strength? Well they may if they happen to be so mighty that they are almighty. But this doesn't happen often enough to believe that someone is almighty unless specified. Jehovah is referred to as mighty AND almighty. Clearly, he does not only have great power and strength, but has unlimited power.
Hence, there is a differentiation between Jehovah (who is described as “mighty” and as “almighty” 43 times) and Jesus who is described as mighty.
I don't see any of those references referring to Jesus. If you see something I don't, let me know.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2006,06:24) I would argue to blaspheme God is to blaspheme Yahshua:
Hi Is 1.18,
All your argument and reason does not equal the veracity of scripture does it?Matt 12.31f
” Therefore I say to you, any sin and BLASPHEMY shall be forgiven people , but blasphemy against the SPIRIT shall not be forgiven.
Whoever speaks a word against THE SON OF MAN , it shall be forgiven Him; but whoever speaks against the HOLY SPIRIT, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or the age to come”The Spirit of God Himself is higher than Yeshua .
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
