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Hi ,
Certainly Jn1.1 is the watershed of doctrine. It is where men decided the
concept of unity
overrode
the concept of being
and thus denied the fatherhood of God and the Sonship of Jesus.
Prov 30.1f
” The words of Agur, the son of Jakeh, the oracle.
The man declares to Ithiel, to Ithiel and Ucal.
Surely I am more stupid that any man,
and I do not have the understanding of a man,
neither have I learned wisdom,
nor do I have knowledge of the Holy One.
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?
Who has established all the ends of thee earth?
What is His name or His sons's name?
Surely you know?”Here is the words of a humble man who admits his ignorance. None have yet ascended or descended so that is prophetic of Jesus.
He does not know the Name of God or that of the Son of God.
But he does know God already has a Son.
Quote (Artizan007 @ May 16 2006,12:50) Nope – I cant find any of them – but I do find of the Christ: Jesus, the Christ, Jesus of Nazareth, Jesus Christ, Lamb of God Lord Jesus Christ, (Though not before his resurrection) Lord Christ Jesus, Lord Jesus, the Word of God, Son of Man, Son of God, Teacher, Lord, Son of David, Son of Joseph, Son of Mary, High Priest, Apostle, Brother, Mediator, Prophet, Messiah, Saviour, Jesus Christ the Righteous One and many many more – etc
Hi Artizan007,
And here are some of those many, many more….“God” – John 1:1, 20:28, 2 Peter 1:1
“O God” – Heb 1:8 (definitive article used)
“Mighty God” – Isaiah 9:6
“Great God” – Titus 2:13
“First and Last” – Revelation 1:17, 2:8….
“Alpha and Omega” – Revelation 22:13
“I AM” – John 8:24, 58
“The YHWH or Righteousness” – Jeremiah 23:6
“Lord of Lords and King of Kings” – Revelation 19:16and my personal favourite……”Most High” – Dan 7:18, 22, 25, 27.
H5946
‛elyôn
el-yone'
(Chaldee); corresponding to H5945; the supreme: – Most high.
Hi Is 1.18 and Artizan 7,
Dan 7.18
'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever..”
7.23
“until the Ancient of days came and judgement was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One,..”
7.25
“he will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One..”
7.27
“..and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One;His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom; and all the dominions will serve and obey Him”5946 Elyon -a name of God-Highest One.
Indeed the “saints of the Highest One” are the saints of God.
God comes in Christ the Word of God, and he stands on the Mountain.
He rules the Kingdom of God on earth through His Son and the Son rules His Kingdom in His Name.Hi,
Ps 89.5f
“The heavens will praise your wonders, O Lord; your faithfulness also in the assembly of the holy ones. For who in the skies is comparable to the Lord? Who among the sons of the mighty is like the Lord, a God greatly feared in the council of holy ones, and awesome above those who are around Him? O Lord of Hosts, who is like you, O mighty Lord”There is none comparable to God among all heaven and earth.
Even His sons, even His Son, fear the One Father God.Ps 86.8
“There is none like You among the gods, O Lord”
Ex 15.11
“Who is like You among the gods, O Lord?
Who is like You, majestic in holiness, awesome in praises, working in wonders?”Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2006,11:57) Indeed the “saints of the Highest One” are the saints of God.
God comes in Christ the Word of God, and he stands on the Mountain.
He rules the Kingdom of God on earth through His Son and the Son rules His Kingdom in His Name.
Daniel 7:14 makes it clear that the Saints belong to the “Son of Man”. Here are some other scriptures that support this:1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Jude 1:4
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saintsHi Is 1.18,
Is the Son not one with His Father? Does He possess anything that does not belong also to his Father?The point was that Yahshua, in Damiel 7, was given the designation “Elyon” and you yourself conceded that this is “a name of God-Highest One.”
Yahshua IS God (but not the Father)
This fact is inescapable.
Hi Is 1.18,
No. You misunderstand. I did not agree the saints of the Highest One refers to the saints of Jesus.
The Son rules in the name of the Father with the authority of the Father. The saints of the kingdom of God do belong to Jesus and also thus to God.But is Jesus the Highest One?
Is he higher than his God and Father?How does a concept of a highest one fit in a triune coequal God?
I don't think The Son is “higher” than the Father, or vise versa, in their substance/nature/essence…..would I be arguing for ontological Co equality if I thought that the Son was a higher class of being than the Father?? Hardly.
'Elyon' is a name of God – Highest One. This is a fact.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2006,22:16) No. You misunderstand. I did not agree the saints of the Highest One refers to the saints of Jesus.
Scripture disagrees with you:1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Jude 1:4
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.Gotta go, have a good day……
Hi Is 1.18,
And God is the Highest ONE.How does scripture disagree with me, when I am agreeing with you, that the saints of God are also the saints of Jesus?
But God is the Highest One.
Bless you and enjoy your dayQuote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2006,11:30) “Great God” – Titus 2:13
“First and Last” – Revelation 1:17, 2:8….
“Alpha and Omega” – Revelation 22:13
and my personal favourite……”Most High” – Dan 7:18, 22, 25, 27.
Hey Is 1:18How is Most High in relation to Jesus. I don't see it in those verses. How do you see it is Jesus? The Ancient of Days pronounces in favour of his people. Rev 12:17 says he wages war against those keeping God's commands and hold fast to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 13:6 Says the beast will blaspheme God, not Jesus and he makes war against God's people not the saints of Jesus if i am making sense.
First and Last in Revelation 1:17, 2:8… no worries with that: but notice when speaking of Jesus in v18 it says… First and Last, I am the living one, , and now look … and again 2:8 it says: First and Last, [who died] and [came back to life]… that is the title for Jesus.
The First and Last, the {one who died} and is [now] {alive for evermore}.
Paul confirms this as well in Romans 8 34 when he says:
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ {that died}, yea rather, that is {risen again}, who is even at the right hand of God, {who also maketh intercession for us}.Jesus is not the Alpha and Omega as far as I can see:
Revelation 22:13 as I see it, is speaking of God and not Christ. It is not the revelation given by Jesus but too Jesus from the Father, so the speaker is relaying God's message to Jesus, from Jesus to the Speaker then to John who writes it down. verse 6 The angel says the LORD God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his sevants the things that must soon take place. v 9 He says, worship God…
Titus 2:13 – debatable!! 😉 could be taken either way… so I dont know enough to comment.
Be blessed
Hi A7,
The footnote in my bible for Titus 2.13 says
OR
“Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of the Great God AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST”]The AND makes quite a difference.
Hi,
If you comb the bible you will come up with 10 or so scriptures where Jesus is called God. There is no doubt about the fact of his own glory and his divine heritage. All will bow to The Lord Jesus.There are about 3000 about the divinity of the Father.
Yet men claim they are equal!!
that is human nature at it's best.
Having computer troubles atm
Artizan & WIT, will reply to your posts tomorrow, God willing.
NH, if Yahshua is not God why does the Bible say He is? and what kind of being is He then? Do you have a “God” and “a god” over you?
Quote If you comb the bible you will come up with 10 or so scriptures where Jesus is called God. There is no doubt about the fact of his own glory and his divine heritage. All will bow to The Lord Jesus. There are about 3000 about the divinity of the Father.
Yet men claim they are equal!!
We know Jesus is clearly referred to with the word “God” (Mighty one) a few times, and there are a few more times that people try to apply to him. Even if all these references were to Jesus being called God, they would amount to about nine times, as far as I can tell. 9 times.
(I'm wondering if someone has a list of these scriptures where it is claimed that Jesus is being called “God.” I know I do, but I can't seem to find it.)HOW DOES THAT COMPARE WITH HOW MANY TIMES JEHOVAH IS CALLED GOD?
If they are equal and both truly God, would the numbers not be somewhat equal?Expressions we find in the Bible:
Jehovah God–50 times
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 time
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah a God–1 timeLITERALLY A THOUSAND TIMES WE ARE CLEARLY TOLD THAT JEHOVAH IS GOD–these are texts that are not confusing and can't be disputed.
Literally, 3 or so times, the word “God” is used with reference to Jesus.As Nick aptly says, How is that equal?
As Nick points out, there are about 3000 references to the divinity of Jehovah. You may dispute some of these if you wish, but I don't know why anyone would, as we all believe that the Father is God. Yet, regardless, there are roughly a THOUSAND TIMES where we are told specifically in no uncertain terms that “Jehovah is in truth God.” A THOUSAND TIMES.
Again, I ask, How equal is that, when compared with how clear it is made that Jesus is God?
If Jesus and Jehovah are equal and both truly God, why is Jesus only called God a few times? Why does the Bible speak of as Jesus having a God, but not of Jehovah having a God?
Is Jesus God Almighty?
It's true that he is referred to as God or Mighty God. And everything about him matches up with what the word “God” means.
Other's were called gods–judges, angels, Satan–and the word god applies to all of them as they are all “mighty.”But is Jesus God Almighty?
Jehovah is referred to as “Almighty” 43 times.
This is because there is nothing that he cannot do.Jesus, is mighty, and can be called a God, but how often does the Bible describe him as Almighty? Anyone? Anyone? There is a grand difference between being “mighty” and being “almighty.” And 43 times, we are told that the one who is specifically called God 1000 times is “Almighty.” Interesting.
If Jesus and Jehovah are equal and both truly God, why is Jesus only called God a few times? Why does the Bible speak of as Jesus having a God, but not of Jehovah having a God?
But this thread is on the “Son OF God.”
LUKE 1:32
“This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High.” (How did the angel announcing his birth refer to him? Compare Ps 83:18, where it says that Jehovah alone is the Most High.)
LUKE 1:34
“For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.”MATTHEW 3:17
“Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”” (Who does Jehovah God’s testimony tell us Jesus is?)JOHN 1:34
“And I have seen [it], and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.””
(What did John the Baptist bear witness to regarding Jesus?)JOHN 1:49
“Nathańael answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”” (How did Nathanael identify Jesus?)MATTHEW 16:16
“In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””
(Jesus himself asked who they thought he was. With this response of Peter, Jesus pronounced him happy, because his Father had revealed this to him.)JOHN 11:27
“She [Martha] said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God.”” (What did Martha believe about Jesus?)JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (Why did John write what he did? What did he want us to believe?)JOHN 1:34
“I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (Did John bear witness that Jesus was God Almighty, or God’s Son?)1 JOHN 4:15
“Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God . . .” (According to John, if we are to remain in union with God, what must confess?)1 JOHN 5:5
“Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?” (According to John, what must we have faith in–that Jesus is God, or the “Son of” God?)
(It seems that John bore witness that Jesus was the “Son of” God, that he wrote what he did so that we would believe that Jesus was the “Son of” God, telling us to have faith that Jesus is the “Son of” God, and to confess that Jesus is the “Son of” God.)ACTS 9:20
“he [Peter] began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.” (What did the apostle Peter preach about Jesus?)MARK 1:24
“What have we to do with you, Jesus you Nazarené? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” (The demons certainly knew “exactly” who Jesus was: the Holy One “of” God, and hence, not God Almighty himself.)
MATTHEW 8:29
“What have we to do with you, Son of God?”
MARK 3:11
“Even the unclean spirits, whenever they would behold him, would prostrate themselves before him and cry out, saying: “You are the Son of God.”“
LUKE 4:41
“Demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.”JOHN 5:18
“On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also CALLING GOD HIS OWN FATHER, making himself equal to God.” (He was not saying that he was equal to God, but rather “he was also calling God his own Father,” and in the minds of the Jews, this was tantamount to making himself equal with God.)
MATTHEW 26:63
“So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”“ (What did the chief priest charge Jesus as saying he was? Surely if there was indication that he was claiming to be God or those around him believed this, then that accusation would have been made. These were the ones who were accusing them of anything they could, making stuff up. Surely if he was claiming to be God himself, they would have capitalized on this.)
LUKE 22:70
“Are you, therefore, the Son of God?”
MATTHEW 27:43
“let Him [God] now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’”
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”” (What did the Jews tell Pilate Jesus had made himself? If Jesus was claiming to be God, surely they who wanted him done away with would have charged him with this.)
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said:
“I am.” (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)JOHN 10:36
“do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?” (Who did Jesus himself say he was?)MATTHEW 14:33
“Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.””
(Miraculously walking on water and calming the winds moved his disciples to what conclusion?)MATTHEW 27:40
“If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!” (How did those mocking him while he was dying refer to him?)MATTHEW 27:54
“when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”“ (What conclusion did the army officer there at Jesus death reach?)
MARK 15:39
“Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.””ROMANS 1:4
“but who with power was declared God’s Son.” (What was Jesus declared to be?)So we have an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, all making very plain what they believed Jesus to be, the “Son of” God, or “God’s Son,” and hence, not God, but someone related to God, the “Son of” God.
Hi Is 1.18,
Thank you david.Satan is called a “god” too.
Using your word does that make him ontologically the same as God?Scripture says there are “many gods”.
Are they all ontologically the same as God, or Jesus, or SatanWhat is the situation for us?
1Cor 8
“But for US there is
ONE GOD, THE FATHER
and
ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST….”Don't miss the wood for the trees.
It is really quite simple.Quote Don't miss the wood for the trees.
It is really quite simple.Yes, it seemed quite simple for an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, who all identified Jesus as the son “of” God.
Simple logic suggests that someone cannot be their own Father. The ones listed who were asked about Jesus identity didn't seem confused. There is God. And there is Jesus, the son “of” God.
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