The Son of God

Participant

Hi A7,
An elephant is very like a mouse.

Far more so than alike to a stone or a piece of grass although all have certain similarities.

A woman is remarkably like a man.
But they are not exactly the same.
Neither are any two men exactly the same.

Neither do two vessels have to be identical for both to be filled with treasure.

May 14, 2006 at 11:44 pm#13586

Participant

Hey Nick,

I write more questions from your post – I want to understand so this is not a dig or anything. Just trying to see how your thoughts unravel on this topic of Jesus the Son of God.

Elephant and a shrew are supposedly related… go figure 😉 but to say that Jesus is (like and Elephant) and we are (like a mouse) is to say that Jesus is not like us in every way.

Timothy 2:2 is not talking about Jesus as a vessel but us and of the house – it is figurative language. It does not state here that some have better “bodies” or “vessels” given to them at birth – but it is those that cleanse themselves from dishonour – was Jesus a dishonoured body that cleansed himself? It states it is those who do this that will be honoured vessels, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work… not better vessels, cause one is made of gold, or silver as opposed to wood or clay… but because they cleanse themselves for the Master. Where does it say Jesus was made better than us… apart from his now risen status – infact scripture states in Isaiah 53 that he had no form or comeliness that we should desire him. Psalm 8 says what is man that you are mindful of him, the Son of man that you care for him… you made him a little lower than the angels… and crowned him with glory and honour.

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You say Mary married into her own tribe (the line of David)… how so? Do we have proof of this in Scripture? Is there anything that says Mary was in the line of David? I can see more in scripture of Joseph being the father of Jesus, Mary being his wife, and that Joseph, was the son of David, than I can of it saying Mary came from from the line of David etc. In fact I see none of the latter… if there is, then they are not stated explicitly and how can you build a doctrine out of it. Can you help here cause my understanding evidently has need of assistence in this matter.

How was Jesus [conceived]? What is the meaning of conceived to you?

con·ceive v
1.vti to form an idea or concept of something in your mind
2.vt to think up something that could be put into action such as a plan or an invention
3.to produce something from the mind such as an emotion
4.vti to {become} [pregnant] *with a child or with young*
5.vt to understand something

That is exactly what happened! She became pregnant.

How did she conceive? Was it a pre-existent soul that was transported into her womb, or did God's Holy Pneuma do the same work it did in making Adam… I see no scripture to state that Jesus was conceived through some heavenly transplant from above. He is not an alien in a body Nick, seed does not grow unless empregnated by another seed when it comes to humanity or unless God's power overshadows like it did in the first Adam's case.

1. Where is your theory stated in scripture, first of Christ being begotten alone in eternity past, by the Father and second of this human/god person called Jesus born of Mary but evidently she had nothing to do with the conception but to carry and bring it into this world.

2. Where is it ever stated that the Messiah would be anything other than a human born of the seed of eve, abraham, david etc – not a God/god, pre-existent being, re-incarnating and becoming flesh. Really that is what you are implying… if he existed before he was on earth.

3. You say the Son of man partook of Flesh, that does not sound like he came in flesh or was truly flesh. Are you not doing like the Trinitarians and adding words that the Bible never uses of the Christ? to partake as far a my understanding goes is: to have or appear to have a certain amount of some quality or characteristic or to share in or take part in something.

4. You say he was begotten of God alone, then you say he was concieved in Mary so had a weak perishable body – where do you get that from Nick, so he was begotten in eternity passed, but concieved in Mary 2000ish years ago? Is that what you are saying? So the Word was God's son, Jesus was Mary's son… but Mary had nothing to do of this whole thing?

4. If he is some pre-exsitent being/soul, then why did he have to relearn and grow in the eyes of God and Man… Not too sure I am happy with that thought – again that sounds like he was re-incarnated to me.

5. You say the waking of the dead is the waking of the soul and the ressurection of the body, I half agree here, hehe, so that is good. If it is the resurrection of the mortal body then whatof those who have been cremated or blown up in war, dismembered in car accidents etc… so do we rise in our mortal bodies. I hope not or there will be a whole lot of bones and ash walking around the place as most will have decomposed by then. Scenes of Pirates of the Caribean come to mind… only we will be nice? 😉 this is for another topic i guess.

May 14, 2006 at 11:58 pm#13587

Participant

Hi A7

I will try to answer some of the questions of you post, although the subject is such that, no amount of words to explain would really do it. It takes a little help from on high to really grasp the things of God, as I am sure you are well aware. Many times in attempting to give answers we risk raising more questions, so forgive me if this is the case…

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What does being pre-existent have to do with him being the Son of God, Son of Man, Son of Adam, Son of David, and Son of Mary… I believe he is all these things, but not that he is the Eternal Son.

I don't believe he is the Eternal Son either, as to the answer to what the titles of Son of God, Son of Man and Son of David are all about, that is a large subject, I have put links to some articles that go into more detail on these (they are on another post in this thread I think)

This thread is about the Son of Man so I will make a few comments on that title here, sorry if I repeat what I have already posted:

The title Son of Man – denotes more than just any normal man and therefore every single man. Not all who bear the title man can bear the title son of man. Now this is a statement that is appalling to many, abhorrent to those who hold to the traditional understanding that Son of Man is simply another way of saying man. But it does not make sense for it to mean this. The use of the title throughout the entire scriptures shows beyond a doubt that a distinction is made between man and son of man. So that, although many statements made concerning man can also be made as true concerning son of man. Equally as true is the fact that many statements made concerning son of man are not true of man in general.

NUMBERS 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

This is the very first time this title “Son of Man” is used in the bible. From it we learn that God is not a man, John 4:24 in fact confirms this telling us God is a Spirit. We also learn that as a result of God not being a man – He therefore does not lie – indeed cannot lie as He is the Spirit of Truth. Also we learn that the Son of Man is not a man either, and therefore needs not to repent. Now many apply this exclusively to Jesus as the Son of Man, but in fact it applies equally well to anyone who is appointed a prophet by God. They are a prophet from birth, before any repentance or even knowledge of the need for such. And also a prophet who speaks in the power (authority) of his office does not need to repent of what they say, as Son of Man, for it is not them that speaks but God.

So the very first scripture to mention this term “Son of Man” boldly declares to us that the man who holds that office son of man, is not a man when in the office of son of man. Yet obviously a prophet is also just a man.

JOB 25:6
How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

This fact is brought home in the scripture above which is also the second time the term “Son of Man” is used in the bible. Yet a distinction is made between man and the son of man.

JOB 35:8
Thy wickedness may hurt a man as thou art; and thy righteousness may profit the son of man.

Once again this denotes a difference between man and son of man, this form of stating a condition relative to man and then son of man is consistent in many instances of this term.

PSALMS 8:4
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

PSALMS 80:17
Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

PSALMS 144:3
LORD, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him!

PSALMS 146:3
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

The last of the above verses is interesting, it is telling us not to put our trust princes or prophets of earth, but to put our trust in the God of Heaven.

ISAIAH 51:12
I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;

ISAIAH 56:2
Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

JEREMIAH 49:18
As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it.

A similar statement to this is repeated 3 more times in the book of Jeremiah and then we get to Ezekiel and the first of many personal usages of this term 'son of man'.

EZEKIEL 2:1-8
And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.
And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.
And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.
For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.
And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.
But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee.

The term son of man appears more times in the book of Ezekiel than any other book of the old testament, as God addresses the prophet personally.

DANIEL 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

DANIEL 8:17
So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

These are the last two times the term appears in the old testament, the first speaks of the Son of Man that comes in the clouds of Heaven which Jesus refers to in the gospels. Matt 24:30, Mark 13:26, Mark 14:62, Luke 21:27, and the final usage of the term is once again in a personal address of God to a prophet.

So as we have said previously, the term Son of Man as a title refers to not just a man, although it is true that a man must be present for the office of prophet to operate through the one bearing the title son of man.
It refers to God in man, to the Divine office of prophecy which is nothing less than God speaking through a man. When we understand this important fact, then every instance of the title in the old testament fits and makes sense relative to this truth.
If we are to hold the opinion that son of man is just a fancy way of saying man then we run into problems beginning with the very first instance of the term.
For if God is not a man and the son of man is not a man as the verse in
Numbers clearly states then this directly contradicts this definition of the term.
So in concluding this look at the use of the term son of man in the old testament we restate the fact that one who bears the title Son of Man is of necessity a man, and as such subject to all the limitations of a mortal man, yet the office of prophet which is indicated by the title Son of Man is more than a man, it is God in a man.

I should add concerning Son of God that as well as being a title it is a physical reality, Jesus was not just son of God by title.
What have these titles and their respective offices to do with Jesus being pre-existent? Good question, he was son of God before his earthly expression of life, was he son of man then also? Son of David? We are told he is the root and offspring of David…

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If Jesus is pre-existent – you tell me how he was conceived in Mary, how could he be made in everyway like we are, and how do you see that he is “fully” human. No human pre-existed as another from, neither has any human pre-existed that created the form it is taking on – this surely cannot hold water?

There is a lot about this on another post, I do not believe that Mary had anything to do with the genetic material of Jesus, as you rightly say, If Jesus was pre-existent then how could she? You will notice in the original transgression in Eden that it is the earth, not Adam that is cursed by God. Only the Serpent is directly cursed – and therefore has an end with all of his seed in the lake of fire.
Man was not cursed directly but indirectly being a part of the earth in bodily makeup. Man is body soul and spirit, we see the body is derived from the earth, the spirit comes from God by the breath of life, leaving the soul.
I believe the soul to be like a seed that god planted in the earth, he then formed a body around that soul, and finally breathed into this the breath of life, quickening the soul and its body.
The body was cursed because of sin, upon death the spirit we learn from scriptures goes back to God who gave it , the body returns to the dust, and the soul which was now separated from God went to sheoll. Apparently in this place these souls still had consciousness as Jesus went down to preach to them.
I believe this soul is the man that God created first in spirit form in Gen 1, then put on the earth and formed into human form in Gen 2. As a soul in genesis 1 it was like God, made of His Spirit.
If we are sons of God with Eternal life, then either that life is something completely foreign to every part of us that is transfused on to us at the rebirth or else there is a part of us that was always (at least in potential – seed form) part of God. If that life is a foreign addition then we are not truly sons of God but rather men that have been anointed with God's life.
I believe the soul is predestinated, came from God, was designed to house eternal life and fell because of sin in Eden. This is the son of God that is redeemed, we are given His Spirit to enliven that soul to a new life, to produce a true son of God.
Jesus told the leaders in his time that they could not receive or hear his word because they did not have any place in them for it. What does that mean? They had no predestinated soul of God, to be quickened. Now these are all very brief statements which to elaborate upon would take a great deal of time, so I will not do so now.

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If Jesus was pre-existent, he was immortal, and then became mortal (is this possible? – where do we find this in scripture?) and somehow entered a body that could die in (ie: mortal). If so, then he really was not human as we are in any way at all, but a pre-existent being that put on the cloak of humanity. How was Mary his mother if he pre-existed? That would either make Mary a surrogate mother of God's action, or Jesus just an alien that used Mary's Womb?

See the comments above for responses to some of this, you ask is this possible that Jesus could go from a form that was immortal to a form that was immortal, where do we see it in scripture? Phil 2, Heb 2 are a couple of places, is it possible?

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With God all things are possible.

By your own statements yes it is! (You are quoting Jesus when you said that).
How was he not human as we are? In a few respects yes he is unique, uniquely begotten, with an origin different to us, yet not so different as we would like to think. We missed out on becoming in word form before we came to earth, he did not. Yet we came originally from God as he did, making us sons of god also. And because we are sons God has sent the spirit of His son into our hearts whereby we cry Abba Father.
I don't think Jesus was an alien, but Mary was as you say a surrogate mother of God's action.

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Can you give me a single scripture to prove your position of “eternal sonship”. if not then are you not doing what the Trinitarians do to prove that Jesus is God. In fact they have a few scriptures to say that he is God, well “god” who has a God, but I cannot find a single scripture that states God had a Son from Eternity. Psalm 2 is not eternal, but prophecy, projected forward to the day of the Messiah. Dan 7 is a vision…

Eternal Sonship? No way – I don't think there is even any sense in such a term, sons have beginnings, eternal means no beginning or ending. Go and read the posts I have put up, I don't believe you will find anywhere that I said I believe in an eternal sonship. However I do believe Jesus had an exisitence before his earthly expression of life. In John 17:5 it tells us he had a glory with his Father before the world. This would be no glory at all if he did not exist to be aware of it at the point of having it. The old testament is sparse in giving us any clues or details of this fact, with only a few scriptures that even hint at the idea of God having a son. However what is hidden in a mystery in the old is declared plainly in the new.(1 Cor 2:7-8, Rom 16:25-26, Eph 1:5-10, Eph 3:1-11, Col 1:26-27) The concept that God could have a son was certainly a mystery to the people in Jesus' day, only a few by revelation were able to confess it.

PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

This scripture lets us know that Jesus was in the form of God and made himself willing, humbled himself even in this glorious form to become God's servant to do His will. And was made, by God, in the likeness of men.
Jesus did not make himself, he humbled himself and made himself willing to be made (by God) a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.
So the only power that Jesus exhibits in this is his ability to choose, to decide to be obedient to the will and purpose of God.
This scripture clearly shows us that Jesus existed in a form other than human, was not God in this form but in the same form as God (a Spirit being), and wen
t from this form to one that was lower. Also that in this previous form he was able to exhibit the characteristics of a conscious being, able to exercise free moral agency.

As to when Jesus came into being, there are not enough details for us to state anything conclusively.

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I believe Mary had a huge part to play in this process. I believe that it is possible that God did in Mary what he did to the dust in the ground – and why not. It was Ruach, not sperm that was breathed into the dust that formed Adam, and it was Holy Pneuma that came over Mary, the power of the Highest and Jesus was conceived. With God all things are possible.

Mary received the seed of God just as a seed is planted in the earth, it says in genesis the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the earth. In the same manner the Lord God formed a man from the womb of the woman. How? I believe, by placing a cell in the womb which had, like any seed the capacity to form for itself a body.

Regarding Matt 1:16 – you have to ask yourself, was he really OF either of these two? They were his earthly parents – yet his own testimony is that he is OF God. So either the disciple who wrote this and Jesus had some contention on this or we are not understanding the intention of the verse, which is to show that even by his supposed earthly parentage he had all the right lineage to qualify as Messiah, for many supposed that Messiah would be a man of natural descent, indeed many still do today.
Remember there were those who believed him to be the son of Joseph and Mary (John 6:41-42) and dissented when he declared that he had come down from heaven.
Many did not believe that he could be Messiah due to the fact that he came from Nazareth, neglecting to search deeper to see he had been born in Bethlehem.
My point? He qualified in all respects, but was not born with any genetic origins attributable to either Joseph or Mary. He was born from the womb of the virgin, and was the Son of God from the very outset.
At his baptism in Jordan, John the Baptist was reluctant to baptize him, but Jesus' answer was: suffer it to be – for it is right that we should do this in order to fulfill all righteousness. As Messiah – Jesus was to be the promised Prophet, Priest and King foretold in the old testament. As such he had to have certain natural lineages attributable to him, he did through his given earthly parents.

May 14, 2006 at 11:59 pm#13588

Participant

oops sorry about the son of man bit, thought this was the son of man thread, but its not its the son of god one

May 15, 2006 at 12:18 am#13589

Participant

Quote (Artizan007 @ May 15 2006,00:44)

Hey Nick,

I write more questions from your post – I want to understand so this is not a dig or anything. Just trying to see how your thoughts unravel on this topic of Jesus the Son of God.

Elephant and a shrew are supposedly related… go figure 😉 but to say that Jesus is (like and Elephant) and we are (like a mouse) is to say that Jesus is not like us in every way.

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How was Jesus [conceived]? What is the meaning of conceived to you?

That is exactly what happened! She became pregnant.

Hi A7,
It is no surprise that we look at scripture and see different things.
I did not compare Jesus with an elephant and us as a mouse but just used the comparison between what is obvious as “alike' is not necessarily the scriptural “likeness”

Did Elizabeth “conceive John”? The same word in greek is used for the conception of Jesus in Mary. I have always said Jesus was truly conceived in Mary, not a transplanted fertilised seed placed in her. You misjudge me.

All human vessels need to be cleansed repentance and in baptism, to be fit to receive the Spirit of God, though John said Jesus did not need to do so, so he was already clean.

The value of the vessel to God is that is suitable to be filled with treasure and what it is made of does not relate to this. If you reread my last post I have already said this in different ways.

The vessel is not seen. It is not of our flesh, which is also a vessel in a way but is shown as a tent by Paul in 2 Cor 4-5. I do not believe this relates to 2Tim 2 so Is 53 does not relate but you may disagree.

It is not written that Mary is of the tribe of David. It is written that the child is of God and that Mary was a virgin till the birth of Jesus so had no sexual relations with Joseph till after then.

May 15, 2006 at 12:56 am#13590

The Roles and Titles of Messiah
Messiah – The Son of Man
Messiah – The Son of God
Messiah – The Son of David

Participant

Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 09 2006,23:36)

Nick
I think that many people get confused with the roles/offices and titles of Messiah.
The word Messiah from which we get Christ in the New Testament means to smear
or anoint with oil.
This anointing was performed on three offices in the OT: Prophets, Priests and Kings.
So that in the sense of the word Messiah, each of these could be called a messiah or annointed one.
We also see in the gospels that Jesus took three titles upon himself that begin with the words 'Son of'
Namely : Son of Man, Son of God, Son of David.
I believe these three titles correspond to the three offices of prophet, priest and king.

Now don't get me wrong – Jesus was definately God's son, no disputing that fact.
But as far as offices/roles and titles goes –
He was primarily active in the role of prophet during the earthly phase of his ministry.
He took upon himself the title of Son of Man for identification of this office.

ROMANS 1:3-4
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Paul here is saying that Jesus was declared to be the Son of God with authority (Mt 28:18) how? by the resurrection from the dead.
It was upon the ressurection from the dead that his office of priest began – the sacrifice of a better covenant now having been offered, the covenant now having been ratified by the death of the testifier.

Anyway if anyone wants to read more on this idea you can do so here

This saves replicating a lot of material on this board.

Here is Malcolm's teachings with links at the bottom.

May 15, 2006 at 1:52 am#13591

Participant

Hi Malcolm,
You say
Jesus is truly Son of God
but
Son of Man is only a title
meaning by inference of a scripture or two.

“Prophet”

Hmmm.

Ps 146.3 reads “mortal man” in NASB

Is a prophet a worm or maggot?[Jb 25.6]

I am unsure about Ps 80.17 but “son of Adam' would read well in all the others.

May 15, 2006 at 2:02 am#13592

Participant

is a man a worm or a maggot? is a prophet a man?
according to God a man is, and according to the scriptures all prophets were men.
But was a prophet a man only when anointed with the Spirit of God?
According to scripture and Jesus – more than a man – gods.

May 15, 2006 at 2:02 am#13593

Participant

Ho A7,
Reincarnation is by definition the occupying of one body after leaving another, something demons and Satan can do.

Lk 22.3
” And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot..”

I don't believe the Word had a body in heaven being in the exact image of God who is spirit but the Holy Spirit filled Jesus and can fill us so becoming incarnate in us.

May 15, 2006 at 2:21 am#13594

Participant

Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 15 2006,03:02)

Hi Malcolm,
So when Jesus asked the disciples in Mt 16.13
“Who do people say that the son of man is?”
because men of the world figured out Jesus was a prophet and said

John the baptist
Elijah
Jeremiah
or one of the prophets

that is strong evidence to you that
“Son of man”
means
“prophet”?

But Jesus constantly used the term “son of Man ” about himself in the same way we might say “I”.

Why would the opinion of men of the world make a spiritual statement about such things?

May 15, 2006 at 2:37 am#13595

Participant

You may just as well ask: how is it then that the son of man is not a man?
Jesus was a man I believe.
Can a prophet say 'I the Son of Man' in the same way we would say 'I a man'?
If a king was to say 'I the king am a man' it would be the same as if I was to say 'I am a man'
Yet it would not be the same as me saying 'I the king am a man' because I am not the king.

May 15, 2006 at 3:51 am#13596

Participant

Hi,
Do you mean when Jesus called himself the “son of man” he was saying he was a man and perhaps a prophet.
He was saying “son of man” is not a real fact but just a title like King?
But was he also saying in code that he was not really a son of man, or a son of Mary, or a son of David?
When he is described as a King is that just a a title too? Surely not.

Who decides what is a title and what is real?

May 15, 2006 at 4:39 am#13597

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2006,04:51)

Who decides what is a title and what is real?

It isn't that difficult really
Son of Man = prophet
Prophet = God anointed man
So a prophet is a man
but a man is not necessarily a prophet.

May 15, 2006 at 5:01 am#13598

Participant

Hi Malcolm,
I would have thought that son of man primarily meant… a son of man.
So lets ponder.

May 15, 2006 at 6:14 am#13602

Participant

Hey Nick,

I do not misjudge you at all i am just trying to understand where you are coming from and if what you believe rings true. A lot of things you have shared have been very good but I want to know on this where you base your doctrine of an eternal Son begotten of the Father in time past. Alone and without another.

I know you did not compair Jesus to an elephant…and we to a mouse, but I was just stating the obvious, elephants and mice are not the same thing… so could not see why you put it in your post. We were talking about Jesus being made in every way like humanity. And you answered with that statement to open your post. Communication of the reader is not always communication of the sender and that is why I am trying to find out why you believe what you do.

So I ask questions to see why and what you believe cause at the moment I am having to rethink what I believe as I no longer believe in the Trinity and that in itself has reprocussions to other things.

May 15, 2006 at 6:16 am#13603

Participant

Hey Nick you said:

Reincarnation is by definition the occupying of one body after leaving another, something demons and Satan can do.

re·in·car·na·tion n
1.in some systems of belief, the cyclical return of a soul to live another life in a new body.
Also called rebirth
2.in some systems of belief, a person or animal in whose body somebody’s soul is born again after he, she, or it has died
3.a reappearance of something in a new form

Luke 22:3 – Satan entering into Judas is not reincarntation according to the above. So do you think Satan's soul literally entered into Judas? Judas never ceased to exist in order for reincarnation to take place. Satan did not become Judas… no Judas was still Judas, but was inspired and moved by Satan to act against the Christ. It is figurative speech to me and implies that Judas was influenced by Satan to do what Satan wanted him to do… which was to betray the Christ. Possession maybe, not reincarnation… That is my thought on this scripture.

Is it not maybe more in line with what a maniputative person can do to another human being once that human being grants him/her the power to manipulate. Control become inevitable. His influence is only as strong as the person allows which can grow if the person does not stand up to him/her, however the actions done or things thought are always of the person doing them or thinking them, not the person manipulating or coaxing from the outside.

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Holy Spirit? – Do you mean God or another person other than God.

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May 15, 2006 at 6:29 am#13604

Participant

Does God fill us litterally, or is it that His breath (or spirit) is in us and his presence is with us – but God himself does not dwell in me.

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You dont believe the Word had a body in the distant past, so before he came to earth in your view, he was Spirit and nothing else – and Spirit to you has no bodily shape. No form etc – just some ethereal entity…floating out there doing His thang…God creating the universe throught him/it? Dunno no from or body to call it anything. Ok lets call the Word a him because it is male in the Greek…

The Word of God now has a body; a heavenly, glorified body yet He is still The Spirit speaking to the Churches… and he stands in amongst the candle sticks…Now he is Spirit like the angels but one that pre-existed without a from. Does that mean he in a lower position now than what he was before he came from above as the Word. He was a formless spirit but now he is a Spirit with a body? Are not angels ministring spirits that have heavenly bodies? They have a form… but God does not and the eternal Word never…

What does it mean when it says God is seated on the throne – who will i stand before, who will i give account to. Does that just imply a figurative meaning rather than a litteral one? ie: he is not really seated on a throne but there is some spiritual meaning intended instead? What is your understanding of this.

I personally never think of God as a formless Spirit but there again how can i truly know cause I can't see him. However I do see reference to him sitting, having hands, eyes, speaks, acts all suggesting he has a form.

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Lastly where does it say that Jesus as the Word was a non-bodied spirit from eternity past, or that the Word was the Eternal Son that was begotten of God sometime in eternal past. – what do you base your belief in this statement upon.

May 15, 2006 at 7:26 am#13605

Participant

Thanks Malcom,

I will read your post later… need to go finish some work.

May 15, 2006 at 10:45 am#13606

Participant

Quote (Artizan007 @ May 15 2006,07:16)

Hey Nick you said:

Reincarnation is by definition the occupying of one body after leaving another, something demons and Satan can do.

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Holy Spirit? – Do you mean God or another person other than God.

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Hi A7,
I think the key scripture about the Fatherhood of God is Ps 2. God exults in the Son He, and I believe He alone, has begotten. No mention of the role of the dust of man as in the conception within Mary's womb.
The Son relates what He has heard the Father say;

“He said to me
'You are My Son. Today I have begotten you'”
]
What natural infant could remember the words of his father at his natural birth or conception? Were those words heard at his birth? They are not recorded. No.This is different.

Did Satan or one of his minions enter Judas? Who knows? I believe the same happens with the Beast in the end times.

I believe the Pharisees were referring to the Holy Spirit as anointing the prophets. The Holy Spirit of God is “the finger of God”[Lk 11], not another person in God. That idea is from “human wisdom”.

May 15, 2006 at 11:00 am#13607