The Son of God

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
Compare these verses
Jn 8.42
“..If God were your Father, you would love me; for I PROCEEDED forth and have come from God..”

Jn15.26
“When the helper comes, Whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who PROCEEDS from the Father, He will bear witness of me”

The Son has “proceeded forth” from God-has been given life as a separate being.

The Spirit “proceeds” from God-is still of God.

[Artizan007]

Hi Nick,

I am not too sure I see a difference in those verses… both say proceeds from in reality. (One just takes four extra words to get there 😉

But what I do think is interesting in this verse is the way Jesus says in question… who God is: If “God” were your {Father} – how does that equate to a Trinity?

Not to sure how you come to this conclusion:
The Spirit “proceeds” from God-[is still of God]. Can you explain your thinking…

Do you equate “proceed” to “begetting”?

Does not all life proceed forth from God. If not, then what is it that returns to God that gave it. (Ecc 12:7)

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 22 2006,02:27)

Adam Pastor, Eze 32:21 (KJV) The strong among the mighty [1368] shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down they lie uncircumcised slain by the sword. From Strongs: H1368 גּבּר    גּבּור gibbôr  gibbôr ghib-bore', ghib-bore' Intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication warrior, tyrant: – champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man. I'm looking for scripture outside of Isaiah 10:20, Jeremiah 32:18 and Isaiah 9:6 where the specific appellation 'el gibbor' is used and applied to men or angels. If you find one, let me know. Atrizan, You don't as for much, do you…… I have half written posts for Malcolm and Sammo to finish, so you'll need to give me some time. God's Blessings

Hi Is 1.18
I know what you asked for … And I supplied your answer …
It is not my fault if your knowledge of the Hebrew language is weak …

Ezek 32:21 is el gibbor in plural

Even Strong's will show you that the word

'strong' is H410, the word 'mighty' is H1368
and there is no numbering for 'among'
Why? Because in the actual Hebrew it is el(im) gibbor

Try http://www.blueletterbible.org … it will confirm the Hebrew to you!
Or asked someone who reads Hebrew to confirm this to you!

I copied and paste the following from http://www.blueletterbible.org …

The strong  [0410]    'el  
among the mighty  [01368]    gibbowr  
shall speak  [01696]    dabar  
to him out of the midst  [08432]    tavek  
of hell  [07585]    sh@'owl  
with them that help  [05826]    `azar  
him: they are gone down,  [03381]    yarad  
they lie  [07901]    shakab  
uncircumcised,    [06189]    `arel  
slain    [02491]    chalal  
by the sword.  [02719]    chereb

[NickHassan]

Hi A7,
The Spirit is the “finger of God”
As such that Spirit,though it is all over the world, infusing the creation of God and endowing saved men with His own nature and power-that Spirit is still in continuity with God, who is Spirit.

[Artizan007]

Hi A7,
The Spirit is the “finger of God”
As such that Spirit,though it is all over the world, infusing the creation of God and endowing saved men with His own nature and power-that Spirit is still in continuity with God, who is Spirit.

So not a person then…

[Artizan007]

ooops… wrong button.

So not a person, but a part of God?

[Artizan007]

Interesting Adam Pastor.

I went on your bloggin site and it does not work on the Apple Mac. I cannot see the articles on the right side because those in the middle obstruct the view.

Just so you know.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Artizan007 @ May 22 2006,06:31)

ooops… wrong button. So not a person, but a part of God?

Hi A7,
Not a person-the Spirit of God is still “of God”.

[Artizan007]

So the holy spirit, is His power is how you see it…

Why the 'He' pronouns in the verses in question. He will bear witness? If it is of God then and his power only then should it not be translated “it”.

Holy Spirit seems to be neuter in the Greek, so it would make sense, but I am not a greek scholar so who am I to say eh… 😉

[NickHassan]

Quote (Artizan007 @ May 22 2006,07:11)

So the holy spirit, is His power is how you see it… Why the 'He' pronouns in the verses in question. He will bear witness? If it is of God then and his power only then should it not be translated “it”. Holy Spirit seems to be neuter in the Greek, so it would make sense, but I am not a greek scholar so who am I to say eh… 😉

Hi A7,
More than that.
It is of God and as God.
Jesus said those who saw him saw God.
Scripture says God was in Christ.

That is why to blaspheme the Spirit or lie to the Spirit is to lie to God.
That is why scripture says in Eph 2.22 we are being built into
'A dwelling of God in the Spirit”

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Artizan007 @ May 22 2006,06:45)

Interesting Adam Pastor. I went on your bloggin site and it does not work on the Apple Mac. I cannot see the articles on the right side because those in the middle obstruct the view. Just so you know.

Greetings Artizan007

Thanks for the info …   … Sorry haven't got a clue about the Apple Mac, however the articles on the right are simply lists of 'My Links, Recommended Books. & Quotes'
which you can look at using this url …
Right Hand Side

Also all the blogs without the other columns can be looked out via …
My Blogs

Tried these URLs on the Apple Mac … and please let me know if they work!

BTW, sometime back (May 17th) you were asking a question about John 1:1 conc. 'god is the word' … here again is my reply to you

Quote (Artizan007 @ May 16 2006,13:48)

En arxh hn (5713) o logov, kai o logov hn (5713) prov ton qeon, kai qeov hn (5713) o logov. Why do we translate it “and the Word was God”, should it not be “and God was the Word”…

'god was the word' is in fact, exactly how William Tyndale translated John 1:1 in his first translation of the Greek NT.

BTW, the majority of all English bibles before the 1611 KJV translations, translated John 1:1-4 as follows:

(John 1:1-4)  In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it; and without it was not any thing made that was made. 4 In it was life; and the life was the light of men.

Hence 'him' wasn't used.
Just thought I would share that with you! 🙂

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Artizan007 @ May 22 2006,07:11)

So the holy spirit, is His power is how you see it… Why the 'He' pronouns in the verses in question. He will bear witness? If it is of God then and his power only then should it not be translated “it”. Holy Spirit seems to be neuter in the Greek, so it would make sense, but I am not a greek scholar so who am I to say eh… 😉

Its called personification:- When an attribute of GOD appears to be given a gender & personality, in order to convey a thought.
However, the attribute in question is just that! An (impersonal) attribute. One must not take the personification literally.

Other examples are wisdom being depicted as a female e.g.
Proverbs Chapter 8, 1:20, 9:1-3ff; Matthew 11:19, Luke 7:35

Or even the word of GOD; for example in John 1:10 depicted as a male. Or as a runner in Psa 147.15

In fact, in John 1, the word of GOD does not literally become a person until verse 14 i.e. the conception of Jesus Christ.

(In books written not long before the birth of Christ such as 'The Wisdom of Solomon'; the word of GOD is portrayed as someone leaping from the throne of GOD to carry out GOD's instructions. Yet the writer is simply speaking about GOD's word, GOD's commandment. He doesn't expect the reader to take this personification literally.

This is the kind of mindset that writers had in those times … hence John's prologue.
Again, no Jewish reader of that era would have taken John's personification, literally)

Personification is a literary style found throughout the scriptures; a style common in writings of that era.

[Artizan007]

Nick

I will reply in the HS pages…

[Is 1:18]

Adam Pastor,
Weakness in the Hebrew language?….he he….now there's an understatement…..

I do know that plural and singular forms of Hebrew nouns don't always conote exactly the same thing. And no matter what way you look at it, the singular Hebrew appellative “El Gibbor”, a plural construction of the singular proper noun 'El' and the adjective 'gibbor', is not found outside of Isa 9:6, 10:20 and Jer 32:18….this is a fact. It is.

Blessings.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2006,05:15)

Weakness in the Hebrew language?….he he….now there's an understatement…..

So you consider yourself an expert?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ May 23 2006,03:36)

Other examples are wisdom being depicted as a female e.g. Proverbs Chapter 8, 1:20, 9:1-3ff; Matthew 11:19, Luke 7:35 Or even the word of GOD; for example in John 1:10 depicted as a male. Or as a runner in Psa 147.15

Calling something a 'she' often depicts a concept or thing. We even do that today. E.g., “She is pretty strong”, could be said when describing a strong structure.

'He' is usually talking about a person.

Is it just a coincidence that the word 'person' is made up of the following words?
Per = one
Son = Offspring
I don't have time to check out the source for that word now.

Today we do not refer to a car for example as a 'he'. E.g., If I said “he's fast alright”, you would think I was talking about a person.

Not sure what the rule was back in the days when scriptures were penned, but I have seen the same thing in some verses at least.

E.g., wisdom is referred to as a 'she'.
Then wisdom is given birth and referred to as a man (craftsman).

I also think that every person is an attribute of God that has been given birth so to speak. Perhaps the new name we are given is reflective of that?

Revelation 2:17
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

Perhaps our soul is an attribute of God that God has made alive with his Spirit? That is why we live, and yet have identity seperate to God. In any case, we should be reflective of God's nature and character or part thereof.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ May 22 2006,12:00)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2006,05:15) Weakness in the Hebrew language?….he he….now there's an understatement….. So you consider yourself an expert?

Hey t8,
AP inferred I had a weakness in the Hebrew language. I agreed and said that it was an understatement. And it is, since I know almost no Hebrew at all. Praise the Lord for the exegetical tools available to us in this information age!

[NickHassan]

Hi,
1 Jn 3.23
“And this is HIS commandment,
that we BELIEVE in the name of HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST, and love one another..”
How can some believe in what they say does not exist??

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Jer 10.10f
“but the Lord is the true God;He is the Living God and the everlasting King…It is He who made the earth BY HIS POWER
Who established the world BY HIS WISDOM
And BY HIS UNDERSTANDING He has stretched out the heavens.”

So Who is the builder of all things ? God the Father.

The power and wisdom and understanding belong to god-doen through the Son.

[david]

Quote

Okay. I guess weve now establised that: 1. There is no scriptual evidence that the appellation 'Mighty God' (El Gibbor) denotes lesser deity. 2. You cannot prove beyond all doubt that in all 43 instances where “Almighty” is applied to God, that it refers exclusively to The Father. Thank you David. Blessings

Interesting, I thought we had very clearly proved that:

1. Jesus is never referred to as Almighty,
2. Jehovah is referred to as Almighty 43 times. (Unless you can show me where it's not referring to Jehovah.)

3. Being almighty means having more “might” or power and strenght then someone who is not almighty.
Hence, the trinity is …wrong.

done.

david.

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