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Hi Kathi,
How you holdin' up?
I want to share the results of some research I did for Jack's “pasa ktisis” thread. These knuckleheads keep saying “firstborn of all creation” means “preeminent over mankind” without ever showing any proof of this. And they “poo-poo” the Eusebius and Ignatius proof we show them of how the Greek words actually were understood by learned theologians who spoke the language naturally from birth. 
They keep implying there was another Greek meaning for “begotten” when applied to Jesus. And they keep repeating Hebrews 1 as some kind of proof the “today” was the day Jesus was “begotten”. Well, check this out from one of my posts to KJ,
Here's the clincher Jack:
Isaiah 7:14 KJV says,
Therefore the Lord
himself shall give
(8799)you a sign
_;Behold, a virgin
shall conceive
_,and bear
(8802)a son
_,and shall call
(8804)his name
Immanuel
This is from NETBible. I don't know why it pastes verticle instead of horizontal but these are the Strong #'s along with the English words. You can see that “bear” referring to Jesus' REAL, not FIGURATIVE birth is yalad (03205). You can further see that it is the qal form of the verb(8802). So much for qal only meaning “figurative”, right? Unless you think Mary gave birth to Jesus in only a “figurative” sense.
Here is some other useful info from Strong:
Qal
Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the “simple” or “casual” action of the root in the active voice. Examples: he sat, he ate, he went, he said, he rose, he bought This form accounts for 66.7% of the verbs parsed.Are all of these examples of people “figuratively” sitting, eating, talking, rising and buying? And qal is the verb pattern used 66.7% of the time in the OT. Does that mean only 33.3% of the things said and done in the OT were actually LITERALLY said and done?
So, that brings us to these SCRIPTURAL FACTS: (JA and WJ, you guys pay attention too
)1. yalad DOES mean a LITERAL begetting
2. yalad DOES NOT EVER mean any of these alternate definitons of the Greek equivalent “gennao”:
a. in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
b. of God making Christ his son
c. of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work3. yalad is the exact word that Paul was quoting in Heb 1 and other places and we can assume that as a Hebrew, he knew that yalad had the exact meaning of a LITERAL begetting
So it stands to reason that Paul talked of a LITERAL begetting, not some “position” that Jesus had been raised to.
Which goes along with what I've told you all before:
Acts says that Paul's top priority after being blinded by Jesus was to preach in the synagogues that this Jesus you killed WAS IN FACT THE REAL SON OF GOD, not just “a” son of God like the rest of us.
And that is the reason he quotes Psalm 2:7. Not to say “this is when God begat His Son”, but to show that Jesus WAS this “begotten Son of God” spoken of in that Psalm all those years ago.
I hope that helps your cause. I love learning new things.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ July 15 2010,15:16) David, You almost made me 'like' you again but then – like last time – you go and blow it. Are you actually a female posting as if a male?
Until you came along – every female in this forum accepted the status quo- or rather – it was never an issue.
The “Don't dis the Holy Spirit” is nothing to do with Gender otherwise why are Human Mothers not in the same category – Jesus snapped at HIS Earth Mother “Woman! My time is not yet” and also, while hanging on the Cross, referred to his mother in reference to John: “Woman, behold thy [begotten] Son (John)”
In the garden of Eden, it was EVE who first sinned but sin is said to have come into the world through Adam. God punished Eve by multiplying her birth pains and made her subordinate to her Husband.
Are you going to argue with God about that, too?
The Holy spirit has no name (Ha – bring this on!! Worshipping Jesus tried to tackle me on this – Please – don't even bother, yet you will because you need to know)
Ok, What is the name of YOUR Spirit? There – the beginning and the end – answer that and you have the answer to the name of the holy Spirit)Yes, “What of it”. I do dismiss your conjecture – misjecture – As of now I will not engage (who invited me in the first place) on this theme as there is no basis for any kind of Scriptural development of it.
I suggest you also drop it – You picked it up from somewhere and made it your own PERSONAL Pursuit… well, Continue to Personally Pursue it if you MUST but JustAskins' advice (and advice only!) is to drop it and draw a line under it.
You say you have been through the posts and can find no “predominance of Truth”.
What is Truth – and how do you know when you see it …Ha!:
“Truth is what you want to see, do you hear me!” said the blind man to the deaf donkey!This is what I believe:
God is one. “God” is a “Title” for the ONE Supreme Being in a system of things. The Ultimate system of things is that which contains our existence. many things and persons can be called “god” (Note Caps or not – Capital is just for emphasise and ease of reading to distinquish one pointed statement of the Almighty ONE God as to all other “so called gods”.
This ONE God give us His name as “YHVH” in Hebrew – meaning “I AM” (Or some say “I Will Be” – I prefer “I AM”) In English we translate it as Jehovah, YahVeh or Yehovah. God describes Himself with the most beautiful and all powerful of all descriptions “I AM THAT I AM” – “I AM” for short. It means He Was, He Is, and He will Always BE, A constant, never changing – from us: “He IS”, He just “IS”. From Him: “I AM”.This ONE ALMIGHTY God devised a new creation, a physical world, from out of the Spirit World, of which HE is ALL, everything.
He created his plan and his workforce from among Spirit being of which one (who came to be called 'Jesus') was the Chief Architect, and Builder. And many others helped, chief among them is the one who came to be called “Satan”.The world was created and living sentient beings of all sorts were created – And then Man was created – a special “Crowning creation” made in the likeness of God himself (Likeness/Image – not physical – God deals with Spiritual – ditch physical…! Image of – The things God can do, that God IS; Holy, Intelligent, Loving, creative, Powerful, has authority.etc. ) God put these in Mankind to rule in a PHYSICAL world – a limited world – much like we create Avatars in a Computer world
and even 'give them life' – after all – we are gods. Just think so much life the avatars will be creating their own life in a micro world….!)And the Holy Spirit -The HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD Himself. His ACTIVE FORCE , the Driver for his actions , the enabler , the actioner, the doer and much more.
oh… not now…Enough – Chat later.
I have not responded to all of your points as i have other ting to do and not all are relevant but if there is any that you want me to go over – Just Say.
Hi JA,Man I'm sorry. It was nice thinking I was “loved”. And no I am not a woman but the theology sure sounds like it , doesn't it?
I used to teach in a city called Compton in California and dissing someone's mother was a big thing…and was humorous to me.
You're so right about his earthly mother.
Garden: That's right, Adam should've had a tighter rein on that woman of his…it's his fault that she got out of line. And worse yet he followed that b….. to his death.
A thought to ponder about that punishment: Eve must've previously had children (and had “little” pain) in order for her to understand the punishment of multiplying her pain, no?
No, I don't like to argue with God because She always wins.
I can't find any names for the Holy Spirit other than what She is described as……HOLY & SPIRIT. I'd love to hear it if you have one. I've seen Her as ruach kodesh and ruach HaKodesh, and you?
Did you ever notice that Jesus never addressed his mother as Mary or Miriam? And only when he was dying did he give her away and finally acknowledge her as “mother”.
I agree with “I AM” or “I EXIST” because that accurately describes God's being.
In America they went away from Jehovah to Yahweh in speech, in writing they use YHWH but I have learned to change it to YHVH because we are talking about the same “object”.
My God Most High consists of two essences. And they, thru their son created everything that exists out of “nothing” because I view “spirit” as something. I haven't found where God and their son needed help or who did help if they did obtain it.
Sometimes it is hard to know if something is a metaphore or not and when to place spiritual meaning into a subject matter.
Your descriptions and qualities of God is what I feel Gen 1:25 is referring to as God's likeness and Gen 1:26 God's image is specifically what it says, “male and female” (I add “essences” because God is not human and these are humans terms).
In English we continually use the word “God” even tho the Hebrew might use something else (Elohim and El are the two biggies;;;;and Elohim is the plural entity that consists of male and female whereas “El” is the singular male entity;;; which makes a big difference to me in understanding.
JA it is great that you “verbalize” as it is easier to respond to.
The BIG overall (macro) picture/story that I see is:
Elohim is ONE GOD (two essences, M/F) wanted to have a family and procreated Their son, Jesus. Then THRU Jesus they created everything (thru/by/for) for him. Individually the two essences do actions for the betterment of Elohim (God Most High). Their son works with the Father who has a physical “body” and serves God Most High. The Holy Spirit is the “force” within God Most High that causes things to happen.
Man walked with God (YHVH, El) and began a separation process at the point of the “fall” when our bodies died.
Jesus is the reconciliation for the separation and brings the family back together, for those who want to be united.
The Bible and Jesus explain God and provide the way of Salvation from sin. Jesus is the only way to reunite with God. END OF STORY
Satan is the antithesis of Christ. Both are bright morning stars and both are full of light. Satan wanted the glory to be given to himself whereas Jesus wanted the glory to go to God.
I feel that the Parable of
the Prodigal Son was referring to Satan.I guess that my “nothing” world is close to your spirit world concept but as I said, I believe that spirit is something.
I, too, feel that man is God's crowning creation as it is the only place where you see God actually performing the “formation” process culminating with giving the breath of life to man AND Adam being called the son of God. Man needed to have all the qualities to rule and have dominion over all God gave to him Gen 1,26 & 28.
Your humor and insight mimic many of my thoughts….ye are gods.
The Holy Spirit and YHVH make up God (Elohim) Himself.
Humor me one bit further, if Elohim is as I imagine and is ONE God, yet TWO essences…..what pronoun would correctly identify Elohim? “He” doesn't as it eliminates the “She” and vice versa, and “They” eliminates the concept of ONE God what could we use?
Time to cook, eat and go off to bed. See ya tomorrow.
JA Have a wonderful evening!
David
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 14 2010,19:16) Hi Kathi, How you holdin' up?
I want to share the results of some research I did for Jack's “pasa ktisis” thread. These knuckleheads keep saying “firstborn of all creation” means “preeminent over mankind” without ever showing any proof of this. And they “poo-poo” the Eusebius and Ignatius proof we show them of how the Greek words actually were understood by learned theologians who spoke the language naturally from birth. They keep implying there was another Greek meaning for “begotten” when applied to Jesus. And they keep repeating Hebrews 1 as some kind of proof the “today” was the day Jesus was “begotten”. Well, check this out from one of my posts to KJ,
Here's the clincher Jack:
Isaiah 7:14 KJV says,
Therefore the Lord
himself shall give
(8799)you a sign
_;Behold, a virgin
shall conceive
_,and bear
(8802)a son
_,and shall call
(8804)his name
Immanuel
This is from NETBible. I don't know why it pastes verticle instead of horizontal but these are the Strong #'s along with the English words. You can see that “bear” referring to Jesus' REAL, not FIGURATIVE birth is yalad (03205). You can further see that it is the qal form of the verb(8802). So much for qal only meaning “figurative”, right? Unless you think Mary gave birth to Jesus in only a “figurative” sense.
Here is some other useful info from Strong:
Qal
Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the “simple” or “casual” action of the root in the active voice. Examples: he sat, he ate, he went, he said, he rose, he bought This form accounts for 66.7% of the verbs parsed.Are all of these examples of people “figuratively” sitting, eating, talking, rising and buying? And qal is the verb pattern used 66.7% of the time in the OT. Does that mean only 33.3% of the things said and done in the OT were actually LITERALLY said and done?
So, that brings us to these SCRIPTURAL FACTS: (JA and WJ, you guys pay attention too
)1. yalad DOES mean a LITERAL begetting
2. yalad DOES NOT EVER mean any of these alternate definitons of the Greek equivalent “gennao”:
a. in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
b. of God making Christ his son
c. of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work3. yalad is the exact word that Paul was quoting in Heb 1 and other places and we can assume that as a Hebrew, he knew that yalad had the exact meaning of a LITERAL begetting
So it stands to reason that Paul talked of a LITERAL begetting, not some “position” that Jesus had been raised to.
Which goes along with what I've told you all before:
Acts says that Paul's top priority after being blinded by Jesus was to preach in the synagogues that this Jesus you killed WAS IN FACT THE REAL SON OF GOD, not just “a” son of God like the rest of us.
And that is the reason he quotes Psalm 2:7. Not to say “this is when God begat His Son”, but to show that Jesus WAS this “begotten Son of God” spoken of in that Psalm all those years ago.
I hope that helps your cause. I love learning new things.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
Good work. I have been reading some of the things from earlier Christians and came across this from Calvin:The first-born of every creature. The reason of this appellation is immediately added — For in him all things are created, as he is, three verses afterwards, called the first-begotten from the dead, because by him we all rise again. Hence, he is not called the first-born, simply on the ground of his having preceded all creatures in point of time, but because he was begotten by the Father, that they might be created by him, and that he might be, as it were, the substance or foundation of all things.
From: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom42.v.ii.iii.html
Hi DFB,
Jesus gets no mention till he is about to be born.
Were you thinking of the Spirit of Christ?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2010,14:44) Hi DFB,
Jesus gets no mention till he is about to be born.
Were you thinking of the Spirit of Christ?
Jesus was never Jesus until He was born of Mary and begotten of the Father except in prophesy. In prophesy He was the Messiah, Immanual etc.Prior to His birth as the only begotten of the Father He was the Word of God.
In John 17 Jesus prayed saying His work here had been done, and asked to be restored to the glory He had in the beginning before the world was.
In Revelation 19:13 we see the rider has a cloak dipped in blood, obviously Jesus, but called once again the Word of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2010,21:42) Hi Oxy,
You mean the Spirit of Christ?
One Spirit.[eph4.4]
If I meant the Spirit of Christ I would have said that.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:00) Quote (davidbfun @ July 15 2010,10:40) He did not call God his Father YHVH either so what does this mean? Everybody else on this site says this is the name of God so why didn't he use it (rhetorical). I still call the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, but I recognize that SHE is probably the one who bore Jesus, NOT God the Father. And if she bore Jesus what would you call her? Mother!
David
Hi David,Did you know that early LXX fragments have been found in which YHVH is actually written in Hebrew in the midst of the Greek translation of the OT? How can you say Jesus never said the divine name? Just because scribes later changed the YHVH's to Adonai's doesn't mean YHVH wasn't there when Jesus read the scrolls in the synagogue. After all, he does tell his Father that he made His name known, right?
And I don't even want to indulge in your “the Holy Spirit is a chick” doctrine. You can have that one all to yourself, brother.
mike
Hi Mike,Maybe they were intelligent enough to realize the future debates that were going to occur?
So tell me my learned colleague, What did Jesus call God, his Father, from the New Testament?
And, in what language?
No, I haven't read the Septuagint fragments.
I have heard that the oral tradition was to say Adonai in lieu of YHVH but the Hebrew Bible at the site I reference still has the written form YHVH as well as Adonai. Psa 110.1; 140.6,7 and hasn't replaced anything….which would be sacriledge and incorrect copying of a scribe, no?
David
Quote (davidbfun @ July 16 2010,15:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:00) Quote (davidbfun @ July 15 2010,10:40) He did not call God his Father YHVH either so what does this mean? Everybody else on this site says this is the name of God so why didn't he use it (rhetorical). I still call the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, but I recognize that SHE is probably the one who bore Jesus, NOT God the Father. And if she bore Jesus what would you call her? Mother!
David
Hi David,Did you know that early LXX fragments have been found in which YHVH is actually written in Hebrew in the midst of the Greek translation of the OT? How can you say Jesus never said the divine name? Just because scribes later changed the YHVH's to Adonai's doesn't mean YHVH wasn't there when Jesus read the scrolls in the synagogue. After all, he does tell his Father that he made His name known, right?
And I don't even want to indulge in your “the Holy Spirit is a chick” doctrine. You can have that one all to yourself, brother.
mike
Hi Mike,Maybe they were intelligent enough to realize the future debates that were going to occur?
So tell me my learned colleague, What did Jesus call God, his Father, from the New Testament?
And, in what language?
No, I haven't read the Septuagint fragments.
I have heard that the oral tradition was to say Adonai in lieu of YHVH but the Hebrew Bible at the site I reference still has the written form YHVH as well as Adonai. Psa 110.1; 140.6,7 and hasn't replaced anything….which would be sacriledge and incorrect copying of a scribe, no?
David
Hi Mike,If Jesus made known his Father's name What NAME did Jesus make known?
Is the (Holy) Spirit in the Hebrew Bible a masculine or feminine noun? (Holy is an adjective).
David
Quote (davidbfun @ July 16 2010,07:39) Quote (davidbfun @ July 16 2010,15:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:00) Quote (davidbfun @ July 15 2010,10:40) He did not call God his Father YHVH either so what does this mean? Everybody else on this site says this is the name of God so why didn't he use it (rhetorical). I still call the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, but I recognize that SHE is probably the one who bore Jesus, NOT God the Father. And if she bore Jesus what would you call her? Mother!
David
Hi David,Did you know that early LXX fragments have been found in which YHVH is actually written in Hebrew in the midst of the Greek translation of the OT? How can you say Jesus never said the divine name? Just because scribes later changed the YHVH's to Adonai's doesn't mean YHVH wasn't there when Jesus read the scrolls in the synagogue. After all, he does tell his Father that he made His name known, right?
And I don't even want to indulge in your “the Holy Spirit is a chick” doctrine. You can have that one all to yourself, brother.
mike
Hi Mike,Maybe they were intelligent enough to realize the future debates that were going to occur?
So tell me my learned colleague, What did Jesus call God, his Father, from the New Testament?
And, in what language?
No, I haven't read the Septuagint fragments.
I have heard that the oral tradition was to say Adonai in lieu of YHVH but the Hebrew Bible at the site I reference still has the written form YHVH as well as Adonai. Psa 110.1; 140.6,7 and hasn't replaced anything….which would be sacriledge and incorrect copying of a scribe, no?
David
Hi Mike,If Jesus made known his Father's name What NAME did Jesus make known?
Is the (Holy) Spirit in the Hebrew Bible a masculine or feminine noun? (Holy is an adjective).
David
Hey David,To my understanding, “spirit” in Hebrew meant “wind” or “breath”. I haven't looked that much into it. I'll start a thread about the LXX fragments because I think it is important. You can start one about the holy spirit being a chick because you think that's important.
I'll try to do it tomorrow. I call it YHVH in the LXX so you can look for it.
peace and love,
mikePs, we are stomping on Kathi's thread about when Jesus was begotten here. Sorry Kathi……..carry on – as Karmarie would say.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2010,00:02) Quote (davidbfun @ July 16 2010,07:39) Quote (davidbfun @ July 16 2010,15:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:00) Quote (davidbfun @ July 15 2010,10:40) He did not call God his Father YHVH either so what does this mean? Everybody else on this site says this is the name of God so why didn't he use it (rhetorical). I still call the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, but I recognize that SHE is probably the one who bore Jesus, NOT God the Father. And if she bore Jesus what would you call her? Mother!
David
Hi David,Did you know that early LXX fragments have been found in which YHVH is actually written in Hebrew in the midst of the Greek translation of the OT? How can you say Jesus never said the divine name? Just because scribes later changed the YHVH's to Adonai's doesn't mean YHVH wasn't there when Jesus read the scrolls in the synagogue. After all, he does tell his Father that he made His name known, right?
And I don't even want to indulge in your “the Holy Spirit is a chick” doctrine. You can have that one all to yourself, brother.
mike
Hi Mike,Maybe they were intelligent enough to realize the future debates that were going to occur?
So tell me my learned colleague, What did Jesus call God, his Father, from the New Testament?
And, in what language?
No, I haven't read the Septuagint fragments.
I have heard that the oral tradition was to say Adonai in lieu of YHVH but the Hebrew Bible at the site I reference still has the written form YHVH as well as Adonai. Psa 110.1; 140.6,7 and hasn't replaced anything….which would be sacriledge and incorrect copying of a scribe, no?
David
Hi Mike,If Jesus made known his Father's name What NAME did Jesus make known?
Is the (Holy) Spirit in the Hebrew Bible a masculine or feminine noun? (Holy is an adjective).
David
Hey David,To my understanding, “spirit” in Hebrew meant “wind” or “breath”. I haven't looked that much into it. I'll start a thread about the LXX fragments because I think it is important. You can start one about the holy spirit being a chick because you think that's important.
I'll try to do it tomorrow. I call it YHVH in the LXX so you can look for it.
peace and love,
mike
Greetings Mike,Thanks for the nice response.
To give you some help ruach/ruwach H7307 is for Spirit (noun, fem) and is defined as wind, breath, mind, spirit.
The man's spirit/soul is nephesh H5315 (noun,fem).
Greek is horrible because it is neutered.
Quote (davidbfun @ July 17 2010,11:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2010,00:02) Quote (davidbfun @ July 16 2010,07:39) Quote (davidbfun @ July 16 2010,15:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:00) Quote (davidbfun @ July 15 2010,10:40) He did not call God his Father YHVH either so what does this mean? Everybody else on this site says this is the name of God so why didn't he use it (rhetorical). I still call the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, but I recognize that SHE is probably the one who bore Jesus, NOT God the Father. And if she bore Jesus what would you call her? Mother!
David
Hi David,Did you know that early LXX fragments have been found in which YHVH is actually written in Hebrew in the midst of the Greek translation of the OT? How can you say Jesus never said the divine name? Just because scribes later changed the YHVH's to Adonai's doesn't mean YHVH wasn't there when Jesus read the scrolls in the synagogue. After all, he does tell his Father that he made His name known, right?
And I don't even want to indulge in your “the Holy Spirit is a chick” doctrine. You can have that one all to yourself, brother.
mike
Hi Mike,Maybe they were intelligent enough to realize the future debates that were going to occur?
So tell me my learned colleague, What did Jesus call God, his Father, from the New Testament?
And, in what language?
No, I haven't read the Septuagint fragments.
I have heard that the oral tradition was to say Adonai in lieu of YHVH but the Hebrew Bible at the site I reference still has the written form YHVH as well as Adonai. Psa 110.1; 140.6,7 and hasn't replaced anything….which would be sacriledge and incorrect copying of a scribe, no?
David
Hi Mike,If Jesus made known his Father's name What NAME did Jesus make known?
Is the (Holy) Spirit in the Hebrew Bible a masculine or feminine noun? (Holy is an adjective).
David
Hey David,To my understanding, “spirit” in Hebrew meant “wind” or “breath”. I haven't looked that much into it. I'll start a thread about the LXX fragments because I think it is important. You can start one about the holy spirit being a chick because you think that's important.
I'll try to do it tomorrow. I call it YHVH in the LXX so you can look for it.
peace and love,
mike
Greetings Mike,Thanks for the nice response.
To give you some help ruach/ruwach H7307 is for Spirit (noun, fem) and is defined as wind, breath, mind, spirit.
The man's spirit/soul is nephesh H5315 (noun,fem).
Greek is horrible because it is neutered.
Mike,Sometimes I have a tendency to give too much information in my responses and thereby alienate others. If you would indulge me I would like to go step by step and you can see why and how I come up with my information. And I know you are astute enough to distinguish the truth without arguing for the sake of arguing.
I have been studying the aspect of “who and what” God is or is not for the past 7 years and have been able to identify, classify and simplify some concepts. All for the purpose of “preaching” Jesus and the Good News.
3 Points:
Is “Elohim” God that is used in Genesis 1:1?
I recently confirmed (again) that this interpretation for Elohim is correct: (As the Rabbi put it, “Yes, but…God is neither male or female…..”
Eloah (root) = god (noun, fem)(notice it is feminine and they still don't want to say “goddess” (Elohi = goddess)
m (suffix) = plural ending (masc)
Is God “ONE” ('Echad)?
I am not trying to “trick” or play games, ok?
So, IF God is ONE and Elohim consists of two essences of female and male THEN: The Supreme Being God is one, yet consisting of male and female essences. (Because of the concept of God being “ONE” the plural word Elohim is identified as SINGULAR even though it has a female and male essence.
“El” (God, sing) is not the same as “Elohim” (God, pl).
With this definition of Elohim (God Most High) there isn't a correct pronoun to describe a singular entity that consists of male and female elements. Therefore as the Rabbi put it they use the pronoun “He” to describe Elohim….due to their gender bias and culture.
Are we on the same page for these 3 aspects of God (without diverging into other theologies or usages of the words)?
Elohim (Supreme Being (God) of creation)
Definition of Elohim
Elohim is ONE ('Echad”)David
Welcome David! First I like to say that We have a Son named David, George David , but We go by David because my Husband's name is Georg also spelled without the e on the end since it is German…..
To God, I believe that the Old Testament has several Scriptures that tell us that God or Elohim is ONE GOD, ONE LORD. LORD always spelled in capital Letters…. When I describe God I think that He is the Almighty God and LORD while Jesus is the Mighty God and Lord…. There is a distinct difference there….
I yet have to figure out who exactly is the “IAm” at first I thought it is God Almighty, but I am not sure of that anymore…. Can you shed any light on that???…. Also I believe that Jesus preexisted His birth here on earth. There is a tread for that, so I will not go into that…. As a man He was begotten of the Holy Spirit and some will take that Scripture and say that it proves that He did not preexist.. What do you think??
Peace and love to you IreneQuote (davidbfun @ July 17 2010,11:40) Quote (davidbfun @ July 17 2010,11:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2010,00:02) Quote (davidbfun @ July 16 2010,07:39) Quote (davidbfun @ July 16 2010,15:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2010,19:00) Quote (davidbfun @ July 15 2010,10:40) He did not call God his Father YHVH either so what does this mean? Everybody else on this site says this is the name of God so why didn't he use it (rhetorical). I still call the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, but I recognize that SHE is probably the one who bore Jesus, NOT God the Father. And if she bore Jesus what would you call her? Mother!
David
Hi David,Did you know that early LXX fragments have been found in which YHVH is actually written in Hebrew in the midst of the Greek translation of the OT? How can you say Jesus never said the divine name? Just because scribes later changed the YHVH's to Adonai's doesn't mean YHVH wasn't there when Jesus read the scrolls in the synagogue. After all, he does tell his Father that he made His name known, right?
And I don't even want to indulge in your “the Holy Spirit is a chick” doctrine. You can have that one all to yourself, brother.
mike
Hi Mike,Maybe they were intelligent enough to realize the future debates that were going to occur?
So tell me my learned colleague, What did Jesus call God, his Father, from the New Testament?
And, in what language?
No, I haven't read the Septuagint fragments.
I have heard that the oral tradition was to say Adonai in lieu of YHVH but the Hebrew Bible at the site I reference still has the written form YHVH as well as Adonai. Psa 110.1; 140.6,7 and hasn't replaced anything….which would be sacriledge and incorrect copying of a scribe, no?
David
Hi Mike,If Jesus made known his Father's name What NAME did Jesus make known?
Is the (Holy) Spirit in the Hebrew Bible a masculine or feminine noun? (Holy is an adjective).
David
Hey David,To my understanding, “spirit” in Hebrew meant “wind” or “breath”. I haven't looked that much into it. I'll start a thread about the LXX fragments because I think it is important. You can start one about the holy spirit being a chick because you think that's important.
I'll try to do it tomorrow. I call it YHVH in the LXX so you can look for it.
peace and love,
mike
Greetings Mike,Thanks for the nice response.
To give you some help ruach/ruwach H7307 is for Spirit (noun, fem) and is defined as wind, breath, mind, spirit.
The man's spirit/soul is nephesh H5315 (noun,fem).
Greek is horrible because it is neutered.
Mike,Sometimes I have a tendency to give too much information in my responses and thereby alienate others. If you would indulge me I would like to go step by step and you can see why and how I come up with my information. And I know you are astute enough to distinguish the truth without arguing for the sake of arguing.
I have been studying the aspect of “who and what” God is or is not for the past 7 years and have been able to identify, classify and simplify some concepts. All for the purpose of “preaching” Jesus and the Good News.
3 Points:
Is “Elohim” God that is used in Genesis 1:1?
I recently confirmed (again) that this interpretation for Elohim is correct: (As the Rabbi put it, “Yes, but…God is neither male or female…..”
Eloah (root) = god (noun, fem)(notice it is feminine and they still don't want to say “goddess” (Elohi = goddess)
m (suffix) = plural ending (masc)
Is God “ONE” ('Echad)?
I am not trying to “trick” or play games, ok?
So, IF God is ONE and Elohim consists of two essences of female and male THEN: The Supreme Being God is one, yet consisting of male and female essences. (Because of the concept of God being “ONE” the plural word Elohim is identified as SINGULAR even though it has a female and male essence.
“El” (God, sing) is not the same as “Elohim” (God, pl).
With this definition of Elohim (God Most High) there isn't a correct pronoun to describe a singular entity that consists of male and female elements. Therefore as the Rabbi put it they use the pronoun “He” to describe Elohim….due to their gender bias and culture.
Are we on the same page for these 3 aspects of God (without diverging into other theologies or usages of the words)?
Elohim (Supreme Being (God) of creation)
Definition of Elohim
Elohim is ONE ('Echad”)David
davidall what you say is of your understanding God,
and yet you did not understand that men cannot understand God in what he his,what he can do,what he will do,what he has done ,except for what HE as willingly give us to understand.
the truth;God is God and he is spirit;end quote;
The WORD(Christ) as been created the first of all things
wish one of those two truth you do not understand in scriptures;maybe someone here can help you
Pierre
Quote (Arnold @ July 17 2010,13:06) Welcome David! First I like to say that We have a Son named David, George David , but We go by David because my Husband's name is Georg also spelled without the e on the end since it is German…..
To God, I believe that the Old Testament has several Scriptures that tell us that God or Elohim is ONE GOD, ONE LORD. LORD always spelled in capital Letters…. When I describe God I think that He is the Almighty God and LORD while Jesus is the Mighty God and Lord…. There is a distinct difference there….
I yet have to figure out who exactly is the “IAm” at first I thought it is God Almighty, but I am not sure of that anymore…. Can you shed any light on that???…. Also I believe that Jesus preexisted His birth here on earth. There is a tread for that, so I will not go into that…. As a man He was begotten of the Holy Spirit and some will take that Scripture and say that it proves that He did not preexist.. What do you think??
Peace and love to you Irene
Thank you & Hello Irene,Thanks for the personal note. I think in the first days that I began you wrote and I responded to “Arnold”…haha and it is good to see you explain Georg because I thought that once you put something out incorrectly everyone continued. lol
A good site that I use for translations is blb.org and when you get to the verse click on the letter “C” and the Hebrew or Greek goes below the sentence.
One concept at a time. There are TWO words translated into English as “God” most frequently from Hebrew and they are El and Elohim…unfortunately Theos is used for the Greek which does NOT distinguish from the two… so, when Greek “scholars” try to compare words they are already at a loss because they don't differentiate the Hebrew words.
El = God (noun, masculine, singular)
Elohim = God (noun, masculine, plural*)* Elohim comprises of two parts: Root and suffix (ending).
Eloah (root) = god (noun, feminine, singular) (notice it is a feminine noun and should be addressed as goddess but isn't)“m” ending = suffix (masculine, plural) (notice that it is a plural but listed as singular)
Thus if you put the breakdown together properly you have a “goddess” + plural masculine ending OR
Definition: God (Elohim) = Supreme Being consisting of two essences, male and female, yet is ONE God.
Therefore from the construct of the word you can see the problem. How do you have a “singular” being with masculine and feminine elements? Next, how do you address a pronoun for Elohim? “He” eliminates the “She” and vice versa. “They” negate God being ONE. And as the Rabbi said, “God is neither male nor female”.
However, to understand usage in the Bible it is good to recognize that Elohim is ONE God with two essences, female and male.
The plural construct of God in the word Elohim (noun, masc & fem, plural) shows why the word God (El; noun, singular, masc) cannot be translated the same as Elohim because the context is lost. And God forbid if we say Gods in place of Elohim.
Anything using El or El + Adjective is probably referring to the male essence of Elohim.
Note-There are many other usages for the word Elohim and applies to myriads of other “beings/persons” however when I use Elohim I use capital letters to differentiate between them and the Supreme Being.
Hopefully, you can understand what I am saying.
Enough for now.
God Bless you Irene & Georg,
David
Quote (davidbfun @ July 17 2010,15:37) Quote (Arnold @ July 17 2010,13:06) Welcome David! First I like to say that We have a Son named David, George David , but We go by David because my Husband's name is Georg also spelled without the e on the end since it is German…..
To God, I believe that the Old Testament has several Scriptures that tell us that God or Elohim is ONE GOD, ONE LORD. LORD always spelled in capital Letters…. When I describe God I think that He is the Almighty God and LORD while Jesus is the Mighty God and Lord…. There is a distinct difference there….
I yet have to figure out who exactly is the “IAm” at first I thought it is God Almighty, but I am not sure of that anymore…. Can you shed any light on that???…. Also I believe that Jesus preexisted His birth here on earth. There is a tread for that, so I will not go into that…. As a man He was begotten of the Holy Spirit and some will take that Scripture and say that it proves that He did not preexist.. What do you think??
Peace and love to you Irene
Thank you & Hello Irene,Thanks for the personal note. I think in the first days that I began you wrote and I responded to “Arnold”…haha and it is good to see you explain Georg because I thought that once you put something out incorrectly everyone continued. lol
A good site that I use for translations is blb.org and when you get to the verse click on the letter “C” and the Hebrew or Greek goes below the sentence.
One concept at a time. There are TWO words translated into English as “God” most frequently from Hebrew and they are El and Elohim…unfortunately Theos is used for the Greek which does NOT distinguish from the two… so, when Greek “scholars” try to compare words they are already at a loss because they don't differentiate the Hebrew words.
El = God (noun, masculine, singular)
Elohim = God (noun, masculine, plural*)* Elohim comprises of two parts: Root and suffix (ending).
Eloah (root) = god (noun, feminine, singular) (notice it is a feminine noun and should be addressed as goddess but isn't)“m” ending = suffix (masculine, plural) (notice that it is a plural but listed as singular)
Thus if you put the breakdown together properly you have a “goddess” + plural masculine ending OR
Definition: God (Elohim) = Supreme Being consisting of two essences, male and female, yet is ONE God.
Therefore from the construct of the word you can see the problem. How do you have a “singular” being with masculine and feminine elements? Next, how do you address a pronoun for Elohim? “He” eliminates the “She” and vice versa. “They” negate God being ONE. And as the Rabbi said, “God is neither male nor female”.
However, to understand usage in the Bible it is good to recognize that Elohim is ONE God with two essences, female and male.
The plural construct of God in the word Elohim (noun, masc & fem, plural) shows why the word God (El; noun, singular, masc) cannot be translated the same as Elohim because the context is lost. And God forbid if we say Gods in place of Elohim.
Anything using El or El + Adjective is probably referring to the male essence of Elohim.
Note-There are many other usages for the word Elohim and applies to myriads of other “beings/persons” however when I use Elohim I use capital letters to differentiate between them and the Supreme Being.
Hopefully, you can understand what I am saying.
Enough for now.
God Bless you Irene & Georg,
David
Hello Irene,Back to the drawing board.
Now we have a definition of Elohim: Supreme Being that is ONE with two essences, female and male.
Definition of ONE ('Echad) = oneness, unity
does not mean the number one.First used in Genesis 1:5 ….Evening and Morning, ONE Day. From the very beginning of the usage of this word we see that two elements are joined together to comprise one entity. Evening doesn't complete ONE Day until Morning is joined together.
Elohim is seen with male and female essences when “He” (Elohim) made MAN in God's image, male and female….Genesis 1:27.
Therefore from the word construction of Elohim and Gen 1:27 we can see that God has two essences male and female…whether we like it or not.
Continuing with the word ONE. Just as ONE Day is not complete without Evening AND Morning, ONE God is not complete without Male AND Female.
Most theologians want to put the Female essence of Elohim inside the Male essence which as you could see would lead to a faulty “Systematic Theology” and speculations. Or worse yet, they relegate the Female essence to a status of “IT” or “a” force of God (but then they don't know what “God” they are talking about, do they?). Others negate the Female essence's existence altogether with the stroke of their intellect and pens (typewriters).
As you can see from my premise: Elohim is ONE God with TWO essences, male and female (all the while remaining as ONE “entity” GOD/Elohim). Later on I will address the two individual essences.
In His Love,
David
Quote (davidbfun @ July 17 2010,15:56) Quote (davidbfun @ July 17 2010,15:37) Quote (Arnold @ July 17 2010,13:06) Welcome David! First I like to say that We have a Son named David, George David , but We go by David because my Husband's name is Georg also spelled without the e on the end since it is German…..
To God, I believe that the Old Testament has several Scriptures that tell us that God or Elohim is ONE GOD, ONE LORD. LORD always spelled in capital Letters…. When I describe God I think that He is the Almighty God and LORD while Jesus is the Mighty God and Lord…. There is a distinct difference there….
I yet have to figure out who exactly is the “IAm” at first I thought it is God Almighty, but I am not sure of that anymore…. Can you shed any light on that???…. Also I believe that Jesus preexisted His birth here on earth. There is a tread for that, so I will not go into that…. As a man He was begotten of the Holy Spirit and some will take that Scripture and say that it proves that He did not preexist.. What do you think??
Peace and love to you Irene
Thank you & Hello Irene,Thanks for the personal note. I think in the first days that I began you wrote and I responded to “Arnold”…haha and it is good to see you explain Georg because I thought that once you put something out incorrectly everyone continued. lol
A good site that I use for translations is blb.org and when you get to the verse click on the letter “C” and the Hebrew or Greek goes below the sentence.
One concept at a time. There are TWO words translated into English as “God” most frequently from Hebrew and they are El and Elohim…unfortunately Theos is used for the Greek which does NOT distinguish from the two… so, when Greek “scholars” try to compare words they are already at a loss because they don't differentiate the Hebrew words.
El = God (noun, masculine, singular)
Elohim = God (noun, masculine, plural*)* Elohim comprises of two parts: Root and suffix (ending).
Eloah (root) = god (noun, feminine, singular) (notice it is a feminine noun and should be addressed as goddess but isn't)“m” ending = suffix (masculine, plural) (notice that it is a plural but listed as singular)
Thus if you put the breakdown together properly you have a “goddess” + plural masculine ending OR
Definition: God (Elohim) = Supreme Being consisting of two essences, male and female, yet is ONE God.
Therefore from the construct of the word you can see the problem. How do you have a “singular” being with masculine and feminine elements? Next, how do you address a pronoun for Elohim? “He” eliminates the “She” and vice versa. “They” negate God being ONE. And as the Rabbi said, “God is neither male nor female”.
However, to understand usage in the Bible it is good to recognize that Elohim is ONE God with two essences, female and male.
The plural construct of God in the word Elohim (noun, masc & fem, plural) shows why the word God (El; noun, singular, masc) cannot be translated the same as Elohim because the context is lost. And God forbid if we say Gods in place of Elohim.
Anything using El or El + Adjective is probably referring to the male essence of Elohim.
Note-There are many other usages for the word Elohim and applies to myriads of other “beings/persons” however when I use Elohim I use capital letters to differentiate between them and the Supreme Being.
Hopefully, you can understand what I am saying.
Enough for now.
God Bless you Irene & Georg,
David
Hello Irene,Back to the drawing board.
Now we have a definition of Elohim: Supreme Being that is ONE with two essences, female and male.
Definition of ONE ('Echad) = oneness, unity
does not mean the number one.First used in Genesis 1:5 ….Evening and Morning, ONE Day. From the very beginning of the usage of this word we see that two elements are joined together to comprise one entity. Evening doesn't complete ONE Day until Morning is joined together.
Elohim is seen with male and female essences when “He” (Elohim) made MAN in God's image, male and female….Genesis 1:27.
Therefore from the word construction of Elohim and Gen 1:27 we can see that God has two essences male and female…whether we like it or not.
Continuing with the word ONE. Just as ONE Day is not complete without Evening AND Morning, ONE God is not complete without Male AND Female.
Most theologians want to put the Female essence of Elohim inside the Male essence which as you could see would lead to a faulty “Systematic Theology” and speculations. Or worse yet, they relegate the Female essence to a status of “IT” or “a” force of God (but then they don't know what “God” they are talking about, do they?). Others negate the Female essence's existence altogether with the stroke of their intellect and pens (typewriters).
As you can see from my premise: Elohim is ONE God with TWO essences, male and female (all the while remaining as ONE “entity” GOD/Elohim). Later on I will address the two individual essences.
In His Love,
David
Hello again Irene,Elohim – Supreme Being God; God Most High ( a single entity comprising of two essences, male and female)
YHVH (noun, masc) = Male essence of Elohim
Holy (adjective) Spirit (noun, feminine) = female essence of ElohimElohim is the combined entities/essences of: YHVH and Holy Spirit
Just as Morning is separate and has its own purpose from Evening in ONE Day, YHVH has His own purpose and mission than that of Holy Spirit in ONE God.
So, if you are at your drawing board place “Elohim” above a circle and divide the circle in half, labeling one side Male and the other side Female. Draw a line downward from Male and make another circle and place inside it “YHVH”. Do the same with Female and place “Holy Spirit” inside the circle. Therefore when you read the Bible look and see which entity is being referred to… Elohim, YHVH (El), or “Spirit”
If the word “El” (either alone or with an adjective) is being used it is for the Male essence's activities.
If the word Elohim is used it is for the combined “persons” of YHVH and Holy Spirit.
If “Spirit of….” or “God's Spirit” or “YHVH's Spirit” is used it is obviously referring to the Holy Spirit's activities.
When you realize that each word denotes a separate function of a given aspect of God you will understand how to use and apply the information given. Also, you won't be confused when someone wants to say that Jesus is the Holy Spirit or YHVH is the Holy Spirit, etc because you will know what position each holds and whether it is being addressed individually (YHVH, HS) or combined (Elohim).
And if you see in your Bible LORD God, who do you think they are referring to? YHVH Elohim (male essence of Elohim specifically) NO?
David
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