The son begotten when?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2010,23:04)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2010,01:55) Sure if you believe the Father has a womb and that is what the prophetic psalm is saying. Hi WJ, You and Jack get so hung up on this stuff.  I know you have to believe that anything is possible for the Father, for your God #2 said so in scripture.  So you must spout this nonsense as a weak attempt to nullify the fact that Jesus was in fact begotten by his Father, just as you were begotten by yours. This is the God who created wombs in all flesh and blood creatures.  Do you think it impossible for Him to create a spirit womb for the one time use of bearing His Son?  It could have been a supernova for all we know.  The point is, your argument that God couldn't have brought his Son to birth because “He doesn't have female parts” is lame.  God can do ANYTHING. mike

Mike

Of course we believe that anything is possibe for God that is why we believe that God came in the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man. John 1:1-14 – Phil 2:6-8

Your concept violates the principle of “every kind bearing after its own kind”.

If the Father brought birth to “a god” then he would be 100% God like the Father. But wait Fathers do not give birth. So who is the Mother?

Dog begets a Dog not a demi-dog.

You will have to prove your point with scripture. You have not done that.

The scripture she quotes is ambiguous!

We look for scriptural facts!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (RokkaMan @ July 07 2010,06:34)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 07 2010,15:55) Mike and Rokka, I agree with you two and see no reason that God the Father couldn't have asexually reproduced His very own offspring from His womb, whatever that means to someone who is God.  Perfect begets perfect…the difference, one is very Father and one is very Son.  The Father is the source of the Son and not the other way around which is actually a huge difference but both are still perfect.  It is interesting to contemplate. I didn't read the first page when I first posted, but now that I did… Sorry for your loss! I lost my big brother 6 months but I rejoice in his death because he was the greatest christian I know. So i know where he is. I pray that you experience the same comfort I have in my loss, God indeed comforts all! ——— I further agree with you LU, The Father is the source of Jesus. Jesus is the source of all things, but The Father indeed is the source of Jesus. The way i understand it now, is that YHVH is the infinite source of all things. The Word of God (Jesus) is God revealed to creation. God can never fully reveal his totality to creation, it'd be impossible…but what he has revealed we behold in The Son. God manifested in creation. The Son of YHVH. This is how he's God, yet not actually YHVH (The Father) himself. Anything we can possibly perceive to be God, we do so in The Son.

RM

I thought you were a Modalist (belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons in God Himself.)?

WJ

[JustAskin]

I can hardly believe this – YET ANOTHER THREAD on Begotten?

Yeah, the same set of two
who?
The ttthree that always do
Twins who are one
when will this be done
This quest for 'begotten'

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So you believe that because nothing is impossible for God
Not because it is written?

When will you stop speaking of him according to the flesh?
The Lord is the Spirit[2Cor 3, 2Cor5]

[Lightenup]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 07 2010,10:22)

LU………..Nick is not wrong , Like us Jesus had a Physical Berth and a Heavenly Berth, One took place when He was Born through the women Mary , the other was at the Jordan when he recieved the Holy Spirit and was then sent into the world to preach the Gospel of the kingdom of God. People try to make a big deal out of his earthly birth as a preexisting morphed being, which is simply a lie. God had before said through Isiah, what His appearance would be like. Isa 53:1……> Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2> For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground;he has not form nor comeliness and when we shall see him there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3> He is despised and rejected of men; a (MAN) of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him: he was despised, and we esteemed him not. God the Father Had to create His Genetic Code to match the  description he gave of Him. But as Mike brought out that was not a problem for GOD to do , so why does everyone think it is such a big deal for God to do that. Adam and Eves creation was far greater then adding DNA to Mary and having her give birth to a Man Child. Jesus was (NOT) a preexistent Being , he was 100% Pure prophesied foreordained Human being in (EVERY) Way and was not a Son of GOD not more the ADAM was, UNTIL he was baptized at the JORDAN River, Nick is absolutely right on this. IMO peace and Love to you and yours………………………gene

Hi Gene,
I know that you believe this but you have never seemed to own up to the fact that the Son was actively involved in creation and Nick or you have never owed up to the fact that the Son is the root of David as well as the offspring of David.

Remember I have shown you that the verbs regarding creation and the Son's involvement were written in the active voice and not passive voice in the Greek?

Also, Jesus is never mentioned as being born again at the Jordan.

Thanks for adding your thoughts though.

[Lightenup]

Quote (JustAskin @ July 07 2010,20:33)

I can  hardly believe this – YET ANOTHER THREAD on Begotten? Yeah, the same set of two who? The ttthree that always do Twins who are one when will this be done This quest for 'begotten'

Hi JA,
Yes, another thread about 'begotten' which shows that it is very controversial and the different views here about this topic, imo, is what keeps us so divided instead of united. May the good Lord help us come together in truth about the begetting of His Son. The passage that this topic is about and in that translation can give us some help, I think.

Psalms 110:3b “From the womb before the day-star, I begat Thee”

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2010,14:48)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2010,23:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2010,01:55) Sure if you believe the Father has a womb and that is what the prophetic psalm is saying. Hi WJ, You and Jack get so hung up on this stuff.  I know you have to believe that anything is possible for the Father, for your God #2 said so in scripture.  So you must spout this nonsense as a weak attempt to nullify the fact that Jesus was in fact begotten by his Father, just as you were begotten by yours. This is the God who created wombs in all flesh and blood creatures.  Do you think it impossible for Him to create a spirit womb for the one time use of bearing His Son?  It could have been a supernova for all we know.  The point is, your argument that God couldn't have brought his Son to birth because “He doesn't have female parts” is lame.  God can do ANYTHING. mike Mike Of course we believe that anything is possibe for God that is why we believe that God came in the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man. John 1:1-14 – Phil 2:6-8 Your concept violates the principle of “every kind bearing after its own kind”. If the Father brought birth to “a god” then he would be 100% God like the Father. But wait Fathers do not give birth. So who is the Mother? Dog begets a Dog not a demi-dog. You will have to prove your point with scripture. You have not done that. The scripture she quotes is ambiguous! We look for scriptural facts! WJ

Hi Keith,
Isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to clear up the ambiguity? If the verse is still ambiguous to someone, then seek the truth from the Holy Spirit. We do not have to be satisfied with ambiguity when we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.

[karmarie]

Quote (JustAskin @ July 08 2010,14:33)

I can  hardly believe this – YET ANOTHER THREAD on Begotten? Yeah, the same set of two who? The ttthree that always do Twins who are one when will this be done This quest for 'begotten'

Aha, its another.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2010,15:16)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 07 2010,10:22) LU………..Nick is not wrong , Like us Jesus had a Physical Berth and a Heavenly Berth, One took place when He was Born through the women Mary , the other was at the Jordan when he recieved the Holy Spirit and was then sent into the world to preach the Gospel of the kingdom of God. People try to make a big deal out of his earthly birth as a preexisting morphed being, which is simply a lie. God had before said through Isiah, what His appearance would be like. Isa 53:1……> Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2> For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground;he has not form nor comeliness and when we shall see him there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3> He is despised and rejected of men; a (MAN) of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him: he was despised, and we esteemed him not. God the Father Had to create His Genetic Code to match the  description he gave of Him. But as Mike brought out that was not a problem for GOD to do , so why does everyone think it is such a big deal for God to do that. Adam and Eves creation was far greater then adding DNA to Mary and having her give birth to a Man Child. Jesus was (NOT) a preexistent Being , he was 100% Pure prophesied foreordained Human being in (EVERY) Way and was not a Son of GOD not more the ADAM was, UNTIL he was baptized at the JORDAN River, Nick is absolutely right on this. IMO peace and Love to you and yours………………………gene Hi Gene, I know that you believe this but you have never seemed to own up to the fact that the Son was actively involved in creation and Nick or you have never owed up to the fact that the Son is the root of David as well as the offspring of David. Remember I have shown you that the verbs regarding creation and the Son's involvement were written in the active voice and not passive voice in the Greek? Also, Jesus is never mentioned as being born again at the Jordan. Thanks for adding your thoughts though.

LU…………..If Jesus was the creator then why did GOD say He did it and did it (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) seem you have a contradictory view from what God said about himself. Do you just ignore these scriptures , He said . You shall have (NO) other God besides Me , and again, I look for another God and there was none no not One. and even Jesus' own word, “FOR THOU ART THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and His quote of scripture that says Hear O ISREAL THE LORD OUR (that included his) GOD IS (ONE) GOD. Not two or three essences of Gods.

All who preach the Triune GOD and Preexistence have much forced the text to conform to the dogmas of the apostate churches. Many go into all these side shows to prove their points , but what i have posted are straight forward scriptures you people never seem to truly deal with, I thing these scripture should be addressed before we shoot of on all kind of directions.

That is why I have over and over stated the same Scriptures because trinitarians and Preexistences have Honestly dealt with them here. Ignoring them seems to be the best approach they can come up with, all the while acting like they have addressed these simple straight forward point , but in truth they have not.

peace and love…………………..gene

[942767]

Hi Kathi:

When we lose a loved one, there is always sorrow because we will miss them. Jesus cried because of the feelings of Mary and Martha when Lazarus died, but Jesus assured them saying, “I am the resurrection and the life, he that believeth in me shall never die”.

And so, if your dad was a Christian, you will see him again.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi Mike:

“A spirit womb”? Really? I can't believe to what extreme people have to go in order to maintain their doctrine.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 07 2010,23:26)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2010,14:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2010,23:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2010,01:55) Sure if you believe the Father has a womb and that is what the prophetic psalm is saying. Hi WJ, You and Jack get so hung up on this stuff.  I know you have to believe that anything is possible for the Father, for your God #2 said so in scripture.  So you must spout this nonsense as a weak attempt to nullify the fact that Jesus was in fact begotten by his Father, just as you were begotten by yours. This is the God who created wombs in all flesh and blood creatures.  Do you think it impossible for Him to create a spirit womb for the one time use of bearing His Son?  It could have been a supernova for all we know.  The point is, your argument that God couldn't have brought his Son to birth because “He doesn't have female parts” is lame.  God can do ANYTHING. mike Mike Of course we believe that anything is possibe for God that is why we believe that God came in the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man. John 1:1-14 – Phil 2:6-8 Your concept violates the principle of “every kind bearing after its own kind”. If the Father brought birth to “a god” then he would be 100% God like the Father. But wait Fathers do not give birth. So who is the Mother? Dog begets a Dog not a demi-dog. You will have to prove your point with scripture. You have not done that. The scripture she quotes is ambiguous! We look for scriptural facts! WJ Hi Keith, Isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to clear up the ambiguity?  If the verse is still ambiguous to someone, then seek the truth from the Holy Spirit.  We do not have to be satisfied with ambiguity when we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.

Kathi

Verses that are unclear as to their translation should not be used to establish doctrine.

But you can believe as you will. The Holy Spirit has shown me the truth, that is why I say that the scripture is ambiguous!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (942767 @ July 09 2010,09:02)

Hi Mike: “A spirit womb”?  Really?  I can't believe to what extreme people have to go in order to maintain their doctrine. Love in Christ, Marty

Hey Marty,

We agree on this one man!

the Roo

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 09 2010,09:10)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 07 2010,23:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2010,14:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2010,23:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2010,01:55) Sure if you believe the Father has a womb and that is what the prophetic psalm is saying. Hi WJ, You and Jack get so hung up on this stuff.  I know you have to believe that anything is possible for the Father, for your God #2 said so in scripture.  So you must spout this nonsense as a weak attempt to nullify the fact that Jesus was in fact begotten by his Father, just as you were begotten by yours. This is the God who created wombs in all flesh and blood creatures.  Do you think it impossible for Him to create a spirit womb for the one time use of bearing His Son?  It could have been a supernova for all we know.  The point is, your argument that God couldn't have brought his Son to birth because “He doesn't have female parts” is lame.  God can do ANYTHING. mike Mike Of course we believe that anything is possibe for God that is why we believe that God came in the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man. John 1:1-14 – Phil 2:6-8 Your concept violates the principle of “every kind bearing after its own kind”. If the Father brought birth to “a god” then he would be 100% God like the Father. But wait Fathers do not give birth. So who is the Mother? Dog begets a Dog not a demi-dog. You will have to prove your point with scripture. You have not done that. The scripture she quotes is ambiguous! We look for scriptural facts! WJ Hi Keith, Isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to clear up the ambiguity?  If the verse is still ambiguous to someone, then seek the truth from the Holy Spirit.  We do not have to be satisfied with ambiguity when we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. Kathi Verses that are unclear as to their translation should not be used to establish doctrine. But you can believe as you will. The Holy Spirit has shown me the truth, that is why I say that the scripture is ambiguous! WJ

Keith,

It is very clear that the verse is prophetic of things of the future from the Psalmist's standpoint. Anyone who fails to see this cannot be guided in truth by the Holy Spirit.

Jack

[JustAskin]

Kar,

I love the word 'Aha'.

It feels like an middle eastern female name and i imagine she is a dusky coloured beauty of a woman swathed in silky flowy arabic garb.

A wonderful vision.

[karmarie]

Oh kay J A,

(what does that have to do with Aha? I dont know, Your off topic.

[theodorej]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2010,15:26)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2010,14:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2010,23:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2010,01:55) Sure if you believe the Father has a womb and that is what the prophetic psalm is saying. Hi WJ, You and Jack get so hung up on this stuff.  I know you have to believe that anything is possible for the Father, for your God #2 said so in scripture.  So you must spout this nonsense as a weak attempt to nullify the fact that Jesus was in fact begotten by his Father, just as you were begotten by yours. This is the God who created wombs in all flesh and blood creatures.  Do you think it impossible for Him to create a spirit womb for the one time use of bearing His Son?  It could have been a supernova for all we know.  The point is, your argument that God couldn't have brought his Son to birth because “He doesn't have female parts” is lame.  God can do ANYTHING. mike Mike Of course we believe that anything is possibe for God that is why we believe that God came in the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man. John 1:1-14 – Phil 2:6-8 Your concept violates the principle of “every kind bearing after its own kind”. If the Father brought birth to “a god” then he would be 100% God like the Father. But wait Fathers do not give birth. So who is the Mother? Dog begets a Dog not a demi-dog. You will have to prove your point with scripture. You have not done that. The scripture she quotes is ambiguous! We look for scriptural facts! WJ Hi Keith, Isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to clear up the ambiguity?  If the verse is still ambiguous to someone, then seek the truth from the Holy Spirit.  We do not have to be satisfied with ambiguity when we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.

Greetings….Right you are!! there is no ambiguity in truth..The ambiguity comes with our carnal interpretation of a Word ,that, by its very design is to confuse and confound the scholars and the professing wise…

[karmarie]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 06 2010,20:12)

Psalm 110 A Psalm of David. 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The Lord shall send out a rod of power for thee out of Sion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 With thee is dominion in the day of thy power, in the splendours of thy saints: I have begotten thee from the womb before the morning. 4 The Lord sware, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchisedec. 5 The Lord at thy right hand has dashed in pieces kings in the day of his wrath. 6 He shall judge among the nations, he shall fill up the number of corpses, he shall crush the heads of many on the earth. 7  He shall drink of the brook in the way; therefore shall he lift up the head. found here: http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/Psalms/index.htm I have also seen v. 3b as: From the womb before the day-star, I begat Thee I think that places the begetting sometime before the naming of morning in Genesis 1:3, and before the sun existed which was day four of creation.   3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. What do you say 'day-star' is?  Any thoughts?

Hi Kathi.

In my bible, and Youngs Literal, there's no word begotten but only…

“From the womb of the morning like dew your youth will come to you…(rsv

“From the womb, from the morning, Thou hast the dew of thy youth…(ylt

I was thinking about similar things today and I was given this… 2nd Peter 1:17….

For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”  we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.  First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,  because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

I see a connection with Psalm's day star.

[Arnold]

Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

“Before the world (creation) was.”

[Oxy]

I'm not sure when the Son was begotten. Is one begotten at conception or at birth? Either way the begotten Son was born of Mary and was the Word made flesh, who later (at the Jordan) received the Holy Spirit.

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