The Root

[gollamudi]

Hi Nick,
Is root first or seed first?

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
When the tree is established the branches come from the roots.

[Not3in1]

Adam,

A seed is always first. From there roots dig deep and then life shoots up!

[Adam Pastor]

FYI

Following is the definition according to Strong's Concordance:

Quote

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number:   4491  Browse Lexicon   Original Word Word Origin rJivza apparently a primary word Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Rhiza 6:985,985 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech hrid'-zah      Noun Feminine   Definition a root that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot metaph. offspring, progeny

Hi Nick … this was explained to before … here is a reminder:

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2005,01:07)

Scripture is precise and pure. If “root” means “offspring” then both words would not be used. If “root” means “offspring” then there is unnecessary repetition. It says “root and offspring of David” because they are different.

Not at all Nick!
They are not different.
It is a Parallelism! They are many examples of parallelisms
in scripture.
It is a Hebraic way of emphasis, and it is definitely not an unnecessary repetition.

E.g. (Psa 8:4)  What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

man & 'son of man' are synonymous expressions. The psalmist uses a parallelism to emphasize the point. See also Psa 144.3

Also (Job 25:6)  How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

The above are not unnecessary repetition, the terms mean the same thing.

Likewise, root and offspring are synonymous terms emphasizing the fact that the Messiah is indeed the Promised descendant/seed of David.

As already pointed out to you, the Messiah is a root of Jesse; the promised root/descendant of Jesse …

(Isa 11:10)  And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, …
Also, (Isa 11:1)  And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Picture a family tree … Isaiah is prophesying of a particular 'branch' coming out of Jesse, who will be the Messiah!

Root/Rod/Branch are all being used synonymously to denote a particular descendant of Jesse, who in turn would be a particular descendant of David, hence, root of David!

BTW, the Greek word for 'root' in Rev 5.5, 22.16, Rom 5.12;
is the same Greek word used for 'stem' & 'root(s)' in the LXX (Septuagint) version of Isa 11.1,10!

i.e.
(Isa 11:1)  And there shall come forth a rod out of the rhiza of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his rhiza:

(Isa 11:10)  And in that day there shall be a rhiza of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Also let me add the following definitions found from Bible software … conc. 'rhiza'

[UBS Grk Dict.] root; descendant; source, cause (of evil)

[Thayer's Lexicon]
rhiza {hrid'-zah}
Meaning: 1) a root 2) that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot 3) metaph. offspring, progeny
Origin: apparently a primary word; TDNT – 6:985,985; n f
Usage: AV – root 17; 17

G4491 r`i,za rhiza {hrid'-zah}
[LS Grk Lex.]
35625 r`i,za
III. metaph. the root or stock from which a family springs, Lat. stirps, Pind., Aesch., etc.; and so a race, family, Aesch., Eur., etc.

[Friberg Grk Lex]
04599 r`i,za … metaph. origin, source (RO 11.16-18); (2) fig. and Hebraistically, of a descendant as a shoot or sprout; offspring, scion (RO 15.12).

Also the same Greek word is used for 'nativity' in the LXX version of Ezek 16:3 … And say, Thus saith Adonai YAHWEH unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan;

Therefore Rev 22:16 = Jesus is the descendant and offspring of David! No unnecessary repetition. Simply Emphasis!

[NickHassan]

Hi AP,
Can a branch grow alone without the root?
Fit for the fire Jesus said.

[NickHassan]

Hi AP,
How wonderful it is that Jesus used simple examples and not the learned lexicons of men.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2008,13:43)

Hi AP, How wonderful it is that Jesus used simple examples and not the learned lexicons of men.

You would never make it as a Berean Nick. It would require too much searching and double-checking for you. You would rather sit back and just rely on the dried ink, it seems.

The Spirit guides, yes, however God also wants you to use your reason. He also wants you to earnestly seek him. These things require searching out and confirmation.

[gollamudi]

God created tree first not root there after only seed is first how come you always quote root?
Root spring forth from seed, my friend root is not some thing independent. You always confuse things in that way to prove your dogma of pre-existence of Jesus.

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Chop a tree to it's roots and it might grow healthy branches again.

Job 14:7
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.

[gollamudi]

Keep revolving around and around you will never come to know the truth.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
So Jesus was the root of Jesse.
Before Jesse then.

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Nick,
here is the verse in Is 11:1

1 “But a shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud shall blossom”.

As I have already quoted earlier the seed is first then comes the root(shoot).
You can not make Jesus as the root of Jesse he was only a bud from his roots. But david is the root of Jesse from him only Jesus came. There is no mystery here. There are n-number of verses to prove this.
Please see the verses in 2 Sam 7:12-14

12 “And when your time comes and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your heir after you, sprung from your loins, and I will make his kingdom firm.
13 It is he who shall build a house for my name. And I will make his royal throne firm forever.
14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me. And if he does wrong, I will correct him with the rod of men and with human chastisements;”

and also Rom 1:3-4

3 “the gospel about his Son, descended from David according to the flesh,
4 but established as Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness through resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord”.

I think we need not confuse with root and seed.
Peace to you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM
Is 11
10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Rom15
8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

13Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

[gollamudi]

Hi brother,
What do you want to prove by this? was Jesus not the son of David and also will be called the son of Jesse and further the son of Israel and of Abraham. I don't find any logic in understanding that Jesus has to preexist in this way. The root only shows a relationship with its tree.
Please think over
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam……good response and a right one brother. Remember trinitarians and preexistenest have many of the same doctrines and they share similar beliefs whit reguards to Jesus' origins.

It kinda like the RCC and the Protestants they say there different by share almost the same beliefs. the both believe in the trinity and sunday worship and all the pagan holidays as well, but try to say there different, here is a big push right now by the Chaotic church to reunite their “Daughters” back to there mother church. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Peace and love to you……….hug you wife and kids for me………..gene

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 09 2008,18:01)

Hi brother, What do you want to prove by this? was Jesus not the son of David and also will be called the son of Jesse and further the son of Israel and of Abraham. I don't find any logic in understanding that Jesus has to preexist in this way. The root only shows a relationship with its tree. Please think over Adam

Hi GM,
You should not be afraid to accept all scripture.
The root supports the branches.  

Rom11
16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

[gollamudi]

Hi brother,
Please see the context with the verses I quoted about Jesus' origins as a man from Abraham, that is the meaning of root nor any support for branches as mentioned by Paul for grafting. Here we are talking about the seed, tree and the root not any grafting.
Please think over
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam….good reply, you are right these are physical origins of Jesus and proves his linages was from man. The Spirit is showing through you, good post brother.

peace to you and yours……..gene

[gollamudi]

Thanks for your encouragement brother Gene.

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Nobody disagrees about the human sonship of Jesus to Abraham.
But he was before Abraham.

The Son of God as proven by resurrection from the dead.[Rom1]
And he was the monogenes Son who was sent into the world[1Jn4].

[Author]

Posts