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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2009,21:05) Hi TT,
God calls men and angels gods so what is your point?
The god of this world is another that comes to mind.
Nick,
I have made the point already but you are not listening. The Father called Jesus “God” AFTER His exaltation to His right hand. The name “God” in reference to Jesus is a name that is SUPERIOR to the angels. Go back and read the text man! It says that the Son's name is “much more excellent” than the angels. Therefore, “god” in reference to angels indicates a much lesser rank . For Jesus the name “God” means SUPREME RULER (Heb. 1:1-8).Quote Thy throne O God is forever and ever Try defining words in their context for once. You're not a dunce.
thinker
To Gene:
Where are you bro? You were called upon to give your Greek credentials. Please give your basis for contradictng the Greek textbooks on Titus 2:13. Or am I asking too much here?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 04 2009,03:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2009,21:05) Hi TT,
God calls men and angels gods so what is your point?
The god of this world is another that comes to mind.
Nick,
I have made the point already but you are not listening. The Father called Jesus “God” AFTER His exaltation to His right hand. The name “God” in reference to Jesus is a name that is SUPERIOR to the angels. Go back and read the text man! It says that the Son's name is “much more excellent” than the angels. Therefore, “god” in reference to angels indicates a much lesser rank . For Jesus the name “God” means SUPREME RULER (Heb. 1:1-8).Quote Thy throne O God is forever and ever Try defining words in their context for once. You're not a dunce.
thinker
Hi TT,
The words you quote in Hebrews are from the OT.God is not truly a name any more than LORD is.
To hold to trinity theory you must always see Jesus as God.
Why do you take on yourself the right to ascribe special meanings?
Quote The words you quote in Hebrews are from the OT. God is not truly a name any more than LORD is.
To hold to trinity theory you must always see Jesus as God.
Why do you take on yourself the right to ascribe special meanings?
The author to the Hebrews says that Jesus has a name that is “more excellent” than the angels. That name is “begotten Son”, “firstborn” and “God.” Get into the new testament where you belong.
thinker
Thinker ………i have no GREEK credentials , I don't think i need them to understand simple truth do you? The Spirit of truth is all i need and so far it has lead me just fine, i don't need 200 so-called scholars to convince me of anything, neither did the Disciples of Christ need them. The Spirit “both defends us and accuses us”, that good enough for me, and it has shown me beyond a doubt that the Trinity and preexistences are in error and Jesus is in no way represented himself as GOD of the scripture and creator of Life. If you don't except the simple and clear words written and spoken by him, what can i do about that? Brother, i know i am (NOT) GOD. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Quote (Gene @ June 04 2009,14:09) Thinker ………i have no GREEK credentials , I don't think i need them to understand simple truth do you? The Spirit of truth is all i need and so far it has lead me just fine, i don't need 200 so-called scholars to convince me of anything, neither did the Disciples of Christ need them. The Spirit “both defends us and accuses us”, that good enough for me, and it has shown me beyond a doubt that the Trinity and preexistences are in error and Jesus is in no way represented himself as GOD of the scripture and creator of Life. If you don't except the simple and clear words written and spoken by him, what can i do about that? Brother, i know i am (NOT) GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Gene,
If you have no Greek credentials then you should not say whether the Greek article is necessary or not. Titus 2:13 is clear. It says that they were looking for that blessed hope the glorious appearing of the great God and Savior Jesus Christ. God and Savior are one and the same.You said that the “great God” and “Savior Jesus Christ” are NOT the same in Titus 2:13. If they are not the same then you deny that God is the Savior. Yet on other threads you say that God alone is the Savior. How can you say you have the Spirit of truth when you contradict yourself? Does the Spirit make you contradict yourself?
The Spirit of truth cannot lead you to contradict yourself or speak incoherently. Even some anti-trinitarians here find your words on many things to be confusing.
thinker
Hi TT,
Does Jesus do anything without God?God anointed and appointed him over the Church and gave him all authority.
Why do you think then he is that God and God is a trinity?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2009,06:47) Hi TT,
Does Jesus do anything without God?God anointed and appointed him over the Church and gave him all authority.
Why do you think then he is that God and God is a trinity?
Nick,
When a man enlists in the army he is just a private under authority. After he is promoted to five star general he is not under authority. Do you believe God promoted Jesus or not?thinker
Hi TT,
So he is not under the authority of the one who promoted him?
If not then where did the authority to promote him come from?Nobody can promote anyone without having greater authority.
Heb 7.7
1Cor15.27Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2009,07:05) Hi TT,
So he is not under the authority of the one who promoted him?
If not then where did the authority to promote him come from?Nobody can promote anyone without having greater authority.
Heb 7.7
1Cor15.27Nick,
Jesus was promoted and given a name that is ABOVE every name. He was exalted to the Father's right hand. In Hebrew culture the session at the right hand SIGNIFIED EQUALITY Nick. If you were a Jew living then you would have known that the session at the right hand meant EQUALITY. I forgot that you're not interested in historical facts. You want to read your Western ideas into the Bible.My private to general illustration was not the best analogy.
Quote Nobody can promote anyone without having greater authority. Then explain Christ's session at the Father's right hand. A man may indeed promote a man to a rank equal to his own. A man may start out as an apprentice and over time be promoted to an EQUAL PARTNER in a law firm. What world are you living in Nick? Jesus' session at the right hand of God in ancient Hebrew culture corresponds to a man being promoted to an EQUAL partner in our culture. Why do you think that the throne is called “the throne of God AND of the Lamb? (Rev. 223:1) And why would Jesus anticipate that men should honor Him EVEN AS they honor the Father? (John 5:22-23)
Please take a little time to know the historical context.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2009,21:13) Hi TT,
So if he was equal with God why do you say he was also the God with whom he was made equal??
Huh?thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2009,05:57) Hi TT,
Are you more similar to the vine or the Gardener?
Huh?thinker
Hi TT,
We as branches are of the same nature as the Vine we work through.
The Vine serves the GardenerQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2009,06:57) Hi TT,
We as branches are of the same nature as the Vine we work through.
The Vine serves the Gardener
Nick,
If you're referring to John 15 where it says that Christ is the vine and as such He serves the gardener (the Father) you do not have an argument. Jesus was the vine while He was present with His disciples. He explicitly said that He was going away and that He would send the Holy Spirit in His place. The Holy Spirit was going to do for them in Jesus' absence what He did for them Himself while present with them (John 16:5-11).Jesus has been exalted to the Father's right hand since then.
thinker
Hi TT,
Is Jesus no longer the vine but has become the Gardener?
That makes the branches dead does it not?For the flip side, here is what an appendix in the NWT says on this:
“1934 “of the great God and of our The Riverside New
Savior Christ Jesus” Testament,Boston and
New York.1935 “of the great God and of our A New Translation of the
Saviour Christ Jesus” Bible, by James Moffatt, New
York and London.1950 “of the great God and of our New World Translation of
Savior Christ Jesus” the Christian Greek
Scriptures, Brooklyn.1957 “of the great God and of our La Sainte Bible, by Louis
Savior Jesus Christ” Segond, Paris.1970 “of the great God and of our The New American Bible,
Savior Christ Jesus” New York and London.1972 “of the great God and of The New Testament in
Christ Jesus our saviour” Modern English, by
J. B. Phillips, New York.In this place we find two nouns connected by καί (kai, “and”), the first noun being preceded by the definite article τοῦ (tou, “of the”) and the second noun without the definite article. A similar construction is found in 2Pe 1:1, 2, where, in vs 2, a clear distinction is made between God and Jesus. This indicates that when two distinct persons are connected by καί, if the first person is preceded by the definite article it is not necessary to repeat the definite article before the second person. Examples of this construction in the Greek text are found in Ac 13:50; 15:22; Eph 5:5; 2Th 1:12; 1Ti 5:21; 6:13; 2Ti 4:1. This construction is also found in LXX. (See Pr 24:21 ftn.) According to An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, the sense “of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ . . . is possible in κοινή [koi·ne′] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article].”
A detailed study of the construction in Tit 2:13 is found in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 439-457. On p. 452 of this work the following comments are found: “Take an example from the New Testament. In Matt. xxi. 12 we read that Jesus ‘cast out all those that were selling and buying in the temple,’ τοὺς πωλοῦντας καὶ ἀγοράζοντας [tous po·loun′tas kai a·go·ra′zon·tas]. No one can reasonably suppose that the same persons are here described as both selling and buying. In Mark the two classes are made distinct by the insertion of τούς before ἀγοράζοντας; here it is safely left to the intelligence of the reader to distinguish them. In the case before us [Tit 2:13], the omission of the article before σωτῆρος [so·te′ros] seems to me to present no difficulty,—not because σωτῆρος is made sufficiently definite by the addition of ἡμῶν [he·mon′] (Winer), for, since God as well as Christ is often called “our Saviour,” ἡ δόξα τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [he do′xa tou me·ga′lou The·ou′ kai so·te′ros he·mon′], standing alone, would most naturally be understood of one subject, namely, God, the Father; but the addition of ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ to σωτῆρος ἡμῶν changes the case entirely, restricting the σωτῆρος ἡμῶν to a person or being who, according to Paul’s habitual use of language, is distinguished from the person or being whom he designates as ὁ θεός [ho The·os′], so that there was no need of the repetition of the article to prevent ambiguity. So in 2 Thess. i. 12, the expression κατὰ τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου [ka·ta′ ten kha′rin tou The·ou′ he·mon′ kai ky·ri′ou] would naturally be understood of one subject, and the article would be required before κυρίου if two were intended; but the simple addition of ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ to κυρίου makes the reference to the two distinct subjects clear without the insertion of the article.”
Therefore, in Tit 2:13, two distinct persons, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, are mentioned. Throughout the Holy Scriptures it is not possible to identify Jehovah and Jesus as being the same individual.”
Quote (david @ June 09 2009,00:17)
For the flip side, here is what an appendix in the NWT says on this:“1934 “of the great God and of our The Riverside New
Savior Christ Jesus” Testament,Boston and
New York.1935 “of the great God and of our A New Translation of the
Saviour Christ Jesus” Bible, by James Moffatt, New
York and London.1950 “of the great God and of our New World Translation of
Savior Christ Jesus” the Christian Greek
Scriptures, Brooklyn.1957 “of the great God and of our La Sainte Bible, by Louis
Savior Jesus Christ” Segond, Paris.1970 “of the great God and of our The New American Bible,
Savior Christ Jesus” New York and London.1972 “of the great God and of The New Testament in
Christ Jesus our saviour” Modern English, by
J. B. Phillips, New York.In this place we find two nouns connected by καί (kai, “and”), the first noun being preceded by the definite article τοῦ (tou, “of the”) and the second noun without the definite article. A similar construction is found in 2Pe 1:1, 2, where, in vs 2, a clear distinction is made between God and Jesus. This indicates that when two distinct persons are connected by καί, if the first person is preceded by the definite article it is not necessary to repeat the definite article before the second person. Examples of this construction in the Greek text are found in Ac 13:50; 15:22; Eph 5:5; 2Th 1:12; 1Ti 5:21; 6:13; 2Ti 4:1. This construction is also found in LXX. (See Pr 24:21 ftn.) According to An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, the sense “of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ . . . is possible in κοινή [koi·ne′] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article].”
A detailed study of the construction in Tit 2:13 is found in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 439-457. On p. 452 of this work the following comments are found: “Take an example from the New Testament. In Matt. xxi. 12 we read that Jesus ‘cast out all those that were selling and buying in the temple,’ τοὺς πωλοῦντας καὶ ἀγοράζοντας [tous po·loun′tas kai a·go·ra′zon·tas]. No one can reasonably suppose that the same persons are here described as both selling and buying. In Mark the two classes are made distinct by the insertion of τούς before ἀγοράζοντας; here it is safely left to the intelligence of the reader to distinguish them. In the case before us [Tit 2:13], the omission of the article before σωτῆρος [so·te′ros] seems to me to present no difficulty,—not because σωτῆρος is made sufficiently definite by the addition of ἡμῶν [he·mon′] (Winer), for, since God as well as Christ is often called “our Saviour,” ἡ δόξα τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [he do′xa tou me·ga′lou The·ou′ kai so·te′ros he·mon′], standing alone, would most naturally be understood of one subject, namely, God, the Father; but the addition of ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ to σωτῆρος ἡμῶν changes the case entirely, restricting the σωτῆρος ἡμῶν to a person or being who, according to Paul’s habitual use of language, is distinguished from the person or being whom he designates as ὁ θεός [ho The·os′], so that there was no need of the repetition of the article to prevent ambiguity. So in 2 Thess. i. 12, the expression κατὰ τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου [ka·ta′ ten kha′rin tou The·ou′ he·mon′ kai ky·ri′ou] would naturally be understood of one subject, and the article would be required before κυρίου if two were intended; but the simple addition of ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ to κυρίου makes the reference to the two distinct subjects clear without the insertion of the article.”
Therefore, in Tit 2:13, two distinct persons, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, are mentioned. Throughout the Holy Scriptures it is not possible to identify Jehovah and Jesus as being the same individual.”
Hi DavidWhy don't you give us just one scripture that proves that Grandville Sharps rule is wrong.
For instance your source says…
Quote (david @ June 09 2009,00:17)
“Take an example from the New Testament. In Matt. xxi. 12 we read that Jesus ‘cast out all those that were selling and buying in the temple,’ τοὺς πωλοῦντας καὶ ἀγοράζοντας [tous po·loun′tas kai a·go·ra′zon·tas]. No one can reasonably suppose that the same persons are here described as both selling and buying. In Mark the two classes are made distinct by the insertion of τούς before ἀγοράζοντας; here it is safely left to the intelligence of the reader to distinguish them.
Nice try and very deceptive of the NWT.Remember the rule is…
“Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent.The NWTs example of “selling and buying” doesnt apply because “selling and buying” are not “two nouns which are singular, personal, and common, and connected by “kai”.
Fool us once David and shame on you, fool us twice and shame on us.
Rather than just parroting opologist for the NWT, show us one scripture that violates the rule.
Please be sure to break it down using the rule.
The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist
who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. “Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule.” Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp’s rule see ExSyn 270-78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 4.Have fun.
WJ
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