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Heaven Net friends,
Titus 2:13 is a direct assertion that Jesus Christ is God,Quote Looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Note this grammatical rule right from the textbook,
Quote If two substantives are connected by kai and both have the article, they refer to two different persons or things; if the first has the article and the second does not, the second refers to the same person (Syntax of the New Testament Greek, University Press of America, p.76). The textbook gives Titus 2:13 as an example of this rule,
προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
I put the article which comes before “great God” in bold for you. And I also put the Greek “kai” in bold. There is no article before “Savior”. This means that the substantatives “great God” and “Savior” (Jesus Christ) are ONE AND THE SAME.
This is right from the textbook!
Yet the New World translation inserts a second definite article before the word “Savior” to make a distinction between God and Savior.
Quote While we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus There is no second definite article before “Savior”. The NWT translators inserted the second article in brackets thus exposing their true agenda.
thinker
Thinker……….It doesn't matter if the definite article is there or not, whats the difference it we say , we wait for the great GOD (and) (A) or (THE) savior of us, Jesus Christ, Jesus was used BY GOD as a SACRIFICE for our SINS, and there FOR as an instrument of Salvation used by GOD the FATHER. Your problem is not the Article, it is the word AND, which can mean TWO (SEPARATE) BEINGS or Can imply ONE, depends on our choice, But most all scriptures show that it should be understood as Separate Beings, Not one and the SAME Being. If this is what you have to use to try to make your Trinitarian idology stick it is weak at best brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ May 30 2009,11:35) Thinker……….It doesn't matter if the definite article is there or not, whats the difference it we say , we wait for the great GOD (and) (A) or (THE) savior of us, Jesus Christ, Jesus was used BY GOD as a SACRIFICE for our SINS, and there FOR as an instrument of Salvation used by GOD the FATHER. Your problem is not the Article, it is the word AND, which can mean TWO (SEPARATE) BEINGS or Can imply ONE, depends on our choice, But most all scriptures show that it should be understood as Separate Beings, Not one and the SAME Being. If this is what you have to use to try to make your Trinitarian idology stick it is weak at best brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ May 30 2009,11:35) Your problem is not the Article, it is the word AND, which can mean TWO (SEPARATE) BEINGS or Can imply ONE, depends on our choice, But most all scriptures show that it should be understood as Separate Beings, Not one and the SAME Being.
Ah , but Gene you are the one that is always talking about the definite article in refering to God.But now you say it doesnt matter and that the word “and” can mean two (seperate) beings.
What about all the times the scriptures say “God and Father”?
The Granville Sharp rule has never been proven wrong.
“Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp’s rule see ExSyn 270-78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude “”
The NET explains it here…
The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp’s rule see ExSyn 270-78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 4.
Why do you defend the NWT?
It seems that you are being biased Gene, rather than accepting the truth of the scripture Titus 2:13
Is it Jesus appearing that you are looking for or the Fathers?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ May 30 2009,04:53) Heaven Net friends,
Titus 2:13 is a direct assertion that Jesus Christ is God,Quote Looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Note this grammatical rule right from the textbook,
Quote If two substantives are connected by kai and both have the article, they refer to two different persons or things; if the first has the article and the second does not, the second refers to the same person (Syntax of the New Testament Greek, University Press of America, p.76). The textbook gives Titus 2:13 as an example of this rule,
προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
I put the article which comes before “great God” in bold for you. And I also put the Greek “kai” in bold. There is no article before “Savior”. This means that the persons “great God” and “Savior” (Jesus Christ) are ONE AND THE SAME.
This is right from the textbook!
Yet the New World translation inserts a second definite article before the word “Savior” to make a distinction between God and Savior.
Quote While we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus There is no second definite article before “Savior”. The NWT translators inserted the second article in brackets thus exposing their true agenda.
thinker
Titus 14 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Hope this helps!
Titus 1
12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13This witness is true.
From this you can easily understand how easy it is to miss the point in scriptures. If line 13 is true then line 12 is false.
The point I am making is that Jesus is the Saviour but in reality the salvation is coming from God Almighty Our Father.
The scripture says that Jesus was sent because God loves us, so who is doing the saving?
WJ……….The problem is with the word (and) not the article the, because the word and can just as easly mean two as one, pending on how it is applied in a sentence, and in this case we cannot tell because it could go either way, so we have to get our answers from other scriptures such as many that have been mention here time and time again. Showing the Jesus and GOD are not the same person, or persons. Even Jesus Himself confirming this. “For thou art the (ONLY) true GOD” and etc.
By the way I am also sorry to hear about you brothers Passing, May GOD be with his family and you all.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Quote (Gene @ May 31 2009,00:44)
WJ……….The problem is with the word (and) not the article the, because the word and can just as easly mean two as one, pending on how it is applied in a sentence, and in this case we cannot tell because it could go either way, so we have to get our answers from other scriptures such as many that have been mention here time and time again. Showing the Jesus and GOD are not the same person, or persons. Even Jesus Himself confirming this. “For thou art the (ONLY) true GOD” and etc.By the way I am also sorry to hear about you brothers Passing, May GOD be with his family and you all.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Hi GeneQuote (Gene @ May 31 2009,00:44) The problem is with the word (and) not the article the, because the word and can just as easly mean two as one, pending on how it is applied in a sentence, and in this case we cannot tell You are missing the point Gene. We can tell exactly what it means because the Grandville sharp rule has never been proven wrong.
In other words there is no example in scripture that contradicts the rule when “in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. “
There are no exceptions of this rule found in the NT Greek scriptures!
Therefore Titus 2:13 is unambiguous. This is another example where an Apostle calls Jesus his God!
WJ
BTW Gene, My brother didnt die, it was Marty's brother and Mandy's!
Quote (Gene @ May 31 2009,03:35) Thinker……….It doesn't matter if the definite article is there or not, whats the difference it we say , we wait for the great GOD (and) (A) or (THE) savior of us, Jesus Christ, Jesus was used BY GOD as a SACRIFICE for our SINS, and there FOR as an instrument of Salvation used by GOD the FATHER. Your problem is not the Article, it is the word AND, which can mean TWO (SEPARATE) BEINGS or Can imply ONE, depends on our choice, But most all scriptures show that it should be understood as Separate Beings, Not one and the SAME Being. If this is what you have to use to try to make your Trinitarian idology stick it is weak at best brother. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Gene,
If it does not matter that the definite article is there or not then it was not necessary for the NWT translators to insert the second article. I have another Greek textbook which says the same thing. You are contradicting the textbooks bro. What are your credentials Gene? I had two years of Greek in college. I think WJ took Greek too because he is a preacher and he handles the Greek pretty well. But you make statements about the Greek that contradict the textbooks and that cannot be sustained Scripturally.Titus 2:13 is a “catch 22” for you because you also deny that Jesus Christ is the Savior. If you admit that “God” and “Savior” are the same then Jesus Christ is both God and Savior. But if “God” and “Savior” are not the same persons then Jesus Christ is the Savior and not God. Either way you are forced to give up something you believe.
You have gotten yourself in pretty deep by opposing textbook grammar. You have trapped yourself in a corner. For your supposed “rule” denies that God is savior at the same time it denies that Jesus is God. It is clear that you must modify your belief sysyem.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 01 2009,01:04) Quote (Gene @ May 31 2009,03:35) Thinker……….It doesn't matter if the definite article is there or not, whats the difference it we say , we wait for the great GOD (and) (A) or (THE) savior of us, Jesus Christ, Jesus was used BY GOD as a SACRIFICE for our SINS, and there FOR as an instrument of Salvation used by GOD the FATHER. Your problem is not the Article, it is the word AND, which can mean TWO (SEPARATE) BEINGS or Can imply ONE, depends on our choice, But most all scriptures show that it should be understood as Separate Beings, Not one and the SAME Being. If this is what you have to use to try to make your Trinitarian idology stick it is weak at best brother. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Gene,
If it does not matter that the definite article is there or not then it was not necessary for the NWT translators to insert the second article. I have another Greek textbook which says the same thing. You are contradicting the textbooks bro. What are your credentials Gene? I had two years of Greek in college. I think WJ took Greek too because he is a preacher and he handles the Greek pretty well. But you make statements about the Greek that contradict the textbooks and that cannot be sustained Scripturally.Titus 2:13 is a “catch 22” for you because you also deny that Jesus Christ is the Savior. If you admit that “God” and “Savior” are the same then Jesus Christ is both God and Savior. But if “God” and “Savior” are not the same persons then Jesus Christ is the Savior and not God. Either way you are forced to give up something you believe.
You have gotten yourself in pretty deep by opposing textbook grammar. You have trapped yourself in a corner. For your supposed “rule” denies that God is savior at the same time it denies that Jesus is God. It is clear that you must modify your belief sysyem.
thinker
Jesus Christ is the instrument of Salvation but it is God who is the actual Saviour for he sent Jesus because He so loved the world.It is vital that you understand that Jesus said;
“Father please take this cup from me”
This is tantamount to saying “I do not want to do this”
But he says he will do it because the Father wants him to, so who is wanting the salvation for you?
Bodhitharta said:
Quote Jesus Christ is the instrument of Salvation but it is God who is the actual Saviour for he sent Jesus because He so loved the world. Titus 2:13 states explicitly and undeniably that Jesus Christ is the Savior. And if “God” and “Savior” are not the same as Gene says then Titus 2:13 denies that God is Savior. Gene's “grammar” denies that God is Savior at the same time it denies that Jesus is God. Gene is trapped!
God didn't love the world anymore then Jesus loved.
Quote Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13) Who layed down his life for you? Who showed you the greatest love?
thinker
Hi TT,
Jesus told us true worshipers worship the Father.
He was not his own father was he?.
He did not worship himself.Quote (thethinker @ June 01 2009,06:19) Bodhitharta said: Quote Jesus Christ is the instrument of Salvation but it is God who is the actual Saviour for he sent Jesus because He so loved the world. Titus 2:13 states explicitly and undeniably that Jesus Christ is the Savior. And if “God” and “Savior” are not the same as Gene says then Titus 2:13 denies that God is Savior. Gene's “grammar” denies that God is Savior at the same time it denies that Jesus is God. Gene is trapped!
God didn't love the world anymore then Jesus loved.
Quote Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13) Who layed down his life for you? Who showed you the greatest love?
thinker
Jesus never said he loved the worldJohn 15:18-20 (King James Version)
18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 17:13-15 (King James Version)
13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Where is this love of the world?
But GOD so loved the world.
Marty and Mandy………..Sorry about the mix up, sorry to hear your brothers passings, may GOD be with there Family's and Your both too, I somehow got confused and thought it was WJ's Brother. Sorry to all, for the mix up.
peace and love to you all, and yours……………..gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2009,06:36) Hi TT,
Jesus told us true worshipers worship the Father.
He was not his own father was he?.
He did not worship himself.
The Father is worshipped through worshipping Jesus. He who does not worship Jesus does not worship the Father,Quote Let all the angels of God worship Him [the Son] (Heb. 1:6) thinker
Thinker……….Jesus worshiped the FATHER brother, we are never told to worship Jesus, we are told to (HONOR) Him, Honor is one thing worship is quite another, imo.
peace and love to you…………………..gene
Bodhitharta said:
Quote Jesus never said he loved the world bd,
So you deny that Jesus loved you. But Jesus said,Quote Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13) Jesus laid down His life for you. Ergo….
Bodhitharta said:
Quote Jesus never said he loved the world The apostle John said that Jesus loved,
Quote Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that he should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end (John 13:1) It appears that the apostle John disagrees with you. Not only does the apostle John disagree with you but so do most non-trinitarians here disagree with you. For they believe that Jesus was our example. So if Jesus didn't love then He is not our example.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 01 2009,10:37) Bodhitharta said: Quote Jesus never said he loved the world bd,
So you deny that Jesus loved you. But Jesus said,Quote Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13) Jesus laid down His life for you. Ergo….
Bodhitharta said:
Quote Jesus never said he loved the world The apostle John said that Jesus loved,
Quote Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that he should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end (John 13:1) It appears that the apostle John disagrees with you. Not only does the apostle John disagree with you but so do most non-trinitarians here disagree with you. For they believe that Jesus was our example. So if Jesus didn't love then He is not our example.
thinker
I didn't say that Jesus didn't “love” I said Jesus said he was not of the world and God said that God loved the world.He loved his own who were in the world who were the Lost sheep of the House of Israel.
Bodhitharta said:
Quote I didn't say that Jesus didn't “love” I said Jesus said he was not of the world and God said that God loved the world. He loved his own who were in the world who were the Lost sheep of the House of Israel.
bd,
You are now contradicting yourself. You originally said that God was the Savior because He loved the world. Now you say that Jesus loved those in the world who were His own. Therefore, Jesus was their Savior because He loved them.You say that Paul was the apostle to the world (Gentiles). Paul said that the love of Christ constrained him to preach to the Gentiles (2 Corinthians 5). Therefore, Jesus is the Savior of the Gentiles because He loves them too.
thinker
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