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Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 17 2007,21:17)
Not3,
It seems to me like you have made your mind up about Yeshua and you don't really want to face up to any biblical facts that conflict with your creature-Jesus supposition. He did invoke a paradigm shift in the minds of his followers. Their writings bear this out.Isaiah,
The “facts” that are presented are a matter of debate. If they were indeed “facts” then we would have one world-wide religion.
The “shift” that you are promoting is one that makes Jesus the second person of the Trinity; you say that this “shift” was evident to Jesus' follower's and the whole of the NT reflects this “paradigm shift in the minds of his followers.” I do not believe this.
Tell me how the NT writers below support your “shift” in believer's minds regarding the One true God, who is the Father only:
Additional emphasis mine, obviously.
Matt. 1:18-21
This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. His mother Mary…..because what is conceived in her……she will give birth to a son…..”Matt. 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”Matt. 4:3
The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”Matt. 6:6
When you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.Matt. 6:8
…..for your Father knows what you need before you ask him [does the Father only know these things or does Jesus also get to know these things as the “second person” of God? Just a side question here.]….This is how you should pray [obviously to the first person in the Trinity – the Father] “Our Father in heaven……”Matt.6:18
….so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father……Matt. 6:24
….You cannot serve both God [here “God” is still the Father only – no “shift” seen] and money.Matt. 6:26
Look at the birds of the air…..yet your heavenly Father feeds them.”Matt. 6:30
If that is how God [still only the Father is God] clothes the grass…”Matt. 6:32
For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father [still only the Father is God] knows that you need them.Matt. 7:11
If you, then…know how to give gifts…how muchmore will your Father in heaven [still only the Father is God] give good gifts…”Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father [still on the Father is God] who is in heaven.Matt. 7:28,29
When Jesus had finished saying these things [about his Father who is God], the crowds were amazed at this teaching because he taught as one who had authority [not as God himself]…Matt. 8:8,9
The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. but just say the word…….for Imyself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me [recognizing that Jesus had authority and likened it under his authority of others – he did not see Jesus as the second person of the Trinity – “shift” noted in peoples minds here either].Matt. 10:20
[In sending out the twelve]….for it will not be you speaking, but the spirit of your Father [who to the twelve is still God] speaking through you.Matt. 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell………your Father's will [the Father is still God here to the Jewish men following the Lord – no shift.]Matt. 10:32, 33
Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father [who is God] in heaven……I will disown him before my Father [who is God] in heaven.Matt. 10:40
…he who receives you….receives me receives the one who sent me [the Father sends the Son and the Father is God *still*].Matt. 11:25-27
….I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth [God], because you have hidden these things….and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father [God], for this was your good pleasure. All things have been *committed* to me by my Father [who is God]. No one knows the Son [literal conceived and born son] except the Father [God]….Still Matthew shows no shift in thinking of the Father who is God, and his Son Jesus who is the Messiah. The Messiah has a job to do which was committed to him by God. From here on out, Jesus steps up to the plate of his new responsibilities. He is “in charge” and begins to give deeper teachings as to his ministry. No thinking of Jesus as a second person of God here. No Trinity teaching what-so-ever. Only a Son who is (for lack of a better way to put this), taking over the Father's business temporarily (1 Cor. 15:20-28) .
Matt. 12:8
For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. [not the second person of God].Matt 12:18-21 [in ref to Isaiah 42:1-4 speaking of the Servant]
Here is my servant whom I hav chosen….I will put my spirit on him….he leads justice to victory. In his name the nations will put their hope. [no shift to believing Jesus is the second person in a foreign Triune God – he is the servant who has the spirit of God ON him].********************************
I will stop my look at Matthew here and continue later today. I'd like to take each book of the NT and see if indeed there has been [as Isaiah suggests] a “paradigm shift in the minds of Jesus' followers.” I don't believe there has been. I don't believe that ANYONE in the NT believed that Jesus was the “second person in a Triune God.” I believe that that concept is a pagen idea and did not enter Jews and God-fearing Gentiles minds. A look at each book may show us at one point this “shift” happened – if it happened at all.
I contend that the faithful Jews and Gentiles continued to only believe in one God – who is the Father. And they learned to put their trust and hope in the man, Jesus who is the Christ (not the second person in a triune God.)
————–
You trust in God; trust also in me. John 14:1
Back to topHi Not3in1.
Is this a debate between Isaiah and yourself?
If so, what are the rules?
Can anyone reply thereafter or just you two?
Quote (heaven @ June 21 2007,16:02) Hi Not3in1. Is this a debate between Isaiah and yourself?
If so, what are the rules?
Can anyone reply thereafter or just you two?
Heaven, I was thinking about this today.I believe I put this thread in the wrong area. It is not a debate. Rather something of a challenge, I guess? Isaiah says there was a “shift” in the NT of Christs followers to believe that the one God of the OT is Jesus of the NT (or at least to believe that he is the second person of God). I disagree, of course. So I thought taking one book at a time might be beneficial.
This takes dedication and time. We are beginning a house remodel and I'm not sure how often I can add to this topic that I've started (ha) but I will certainly try. Please feel free to move this to it's appropriate place. Sorry about that.
Thank you
No probs 3in1.
I have moved it here. Even though it is about scripture, it is as you say to prove that the Father is the one true God (and not a trinity) which fits with the truth or tradition forum.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 18 2007,07:24) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 17 2007,21:17)
Not3,
It seems to me like you have made your mind up about Yeshua and you don't really want to face up to any biblical facts that conflict with your creature-Jesus supposition. He did invoke a paradigm shift in the minds of his followers. Their writings bear this out.Isaiah,
The “facts” that are presented are a matter of debate. If they were indeed “facts” then we would have one world-wide religion.
The “shift” that you are promoting is one that makes Jesus the second person of the Trinity; you say that this “shift” was evident to Jesus' follower's and the whole of the NT reflects this “paradigm shift in the minds of his followers.” I do not believe this.
Tell me how the NT writers below support your “shift” in believer's minds regarding the One true God, who is the Father only:
Additional emphasis mine, obviously.
Matt. 1:18-21
This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. His mother Mary…..because what is conceived in her……she will give birth to a son…..”Matt. 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”Matt. 4:3
The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”Matt. 6:6
When you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.Matt. 6:8
…..for your Father knows what you need before you ask him [does the Father only know these things or does Jesus also get to know these things as the “second person” of God? Just a side question here.]….This is how you should pray [obviously to the first person in the Trinity – the Father] “Our Father in heaven……”Matt.6:18
….so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father……Matt. 6:24
….You cannot serve both God [here “God” is still the Father only – no “shift” seen] and money.Matt. 6:26
Look at the birds of the air…..yet your heavenly Father feeds them.”Matt. 6:30
If that is how God [still only the Father is God] clothes the grass…”Matt. 6:32
For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father [still only the Father is God] knows that you need them.Matt. 7:11
If you, then…know how to give gifts…how muchmore will your Father in heaven [still only the Father is God] give good gifts…”Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father [still on the Father is God] who is in heaven.Matt. 7:28,29
When Jesus had finished saying these things [about his Father who is God], the crowds were amazed at this teaching because he taught as one who had authority [not as God himself]…Matt. 8:8,9
The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. but just say the word…….for Imyself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me [recognizing that Jesus had authority and likened it under his authority of others – he did not see Jesus as the second person of the Trinity – “shift” noted in peoples minds here either].Matt. 10:20
[In sending out the twelve]….for it will not be you speaking, but the spirit of your Father [who to the twelve is still God] speaking through you.Matt. 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell………your Father's will [the Father is still God here to the Jewish men following the Lord – no shift.]Matt. 10:32, 33
Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father [who is God] in heaven……I will disown him before my Father [who is God] in heaven.Matt. 10:40
…he who receives you….receives me receives the one who sent me [the Father sends the Son and the Father is God *still*].Matt. 11:25-27
….I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth [God], because you have hidden these things….and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father [God], for this was your good pleasure. All things have been *committed* to me by my Father [who is God]. No one knows the Son [literal conceived and born son] except the Father [God]….Still Matthew shows no shift in thinking of the Father who is God, and his Son Jesus who is the Messiah. The Messiah has a job to do which was committed to him by God. From here on out, Jesus steps up to the plate of his new responsibilities. He is “in charge” and begins to give deeper teachings as to his ministry. No thinking of Jesus as a second person of God here. No Trinity teaching what-so-ever. Only a Son who is (for lack of a better way to put this), taking over the Father's business temporarily (1 Cor. 15:20-28) .
Matt. 12:8
For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. [not the second person of God].Matt 12:18-21 [in ref to Isaiah 42:1-4 speaking of the Servant]
Here is my servant whom I hav chosen….I will put my spirit on him….he leads justice to victory. In his name the nations will put their hope. [no shift to believing Jesus is the second person in a foreign Triune God – he is the servant who has the spirit of God ON him].********************************
I will stop my look at Matthew here and continue later today. I'd like to take each book of the NT and see if indeed there has been [as Isaiah suggests] a “paradigm shift in the minds of Jesus' followers.” I don't believe there has been. I don't believe that ANYONE in the NT believed that Jesus was the “second person in a Triune God.” I believe that that concept is a pagen idea and did not enter Jews and God-fearing Gentiles minds. A look at each book may show us at one point this “shift” happened – if it happened at all.
I contend that the faithful Jews and Gentiles continued to only believe in one God – who is the Father. And they learned to put their trust and hope in the man, Jesus who is the Christ (not the second person in a triune God.)
————–
You trust in God; trust also in me. John 14:1
Back to top
That's an interesting post Not3. I'll try and post a reply this weekend if I have time….actually next week is more likely, as it's going to be a busy weekend for us.Hi Isaiah,
Thanks for checking in. I've sort of dropped the ball on this thread but I really want to pick it up again. Mainly because I want to see if there is “shift” in thinking, as you say. It's like I've told WJ, I argue what I think I know……if I am shown different or to be wrong, well then I've learned something. Ultimately, that is why I am here – to see if what I have come to believe is OK to believe.
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