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Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 27 2007,02:09) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2007,21:25) 
STU is that you?
I like Bill Orielly!
He sure dosnt hold STUs views though. Bad comparison Kenrch.
Hi Gene
I think it would help our discussion if you would be willing to get yourself up to speed with evolutionary theory and the modern scientific definition of proof, which is now definitely the sense in which you are using the word. The scrap iron to car analogy does not apply to evolution, it is a strawman argument put about by creation 'scientists' to decieve people. You would think such people would take a bit more care with the commandment about false witness, but they are obviously willing to burn in their naive attempts to persuade others of their 'truth'! What creationism has to do with being a christian has me (and the archbishop of Canterbury, and the former pope) wondering, to say the least. You obviously care about the truth, and you can investigate these things for yourself and make your own conclusions, you don't even need faith to do it!
Wikipedia, Evolution and Science, as per links previously posted.
Stuart
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 28 2007,01:03) Hey why is it if I said anything like what you guys are saying I'm mean, not loving, and whatever they can think of. But I appreciate both of you putting down scripture because it shows the future of this place, HA!
And no one will stand up because they fear not being popular! HA ha ha
To whom much is given – much is expected. Maybe that is why you are held to a higher standard?I don't think many people here care about popularity, but I could be wrong? Most speak their minds and even say they are here to “bring the truth” or “to show error”. For instance, David is the only JW that I know and he brings his message regardless of how other's respond. Same with you and Laurel regarding the Sabbath. Other's have their own axe to grind with popular dogma's. While other's of us are listening and taking notes; deciding what to keep and what to throw away.
Stu….> you can't seperate truth. If what you believe is truth of creation then peoduce it, your scientific peors cant seem to, but you are regarding what they say as Fact and truth, so i then can assume, basied on your words that would also be your (FAITH), a Faith that has never been proven at all. And if you believe in this , then halleous corpus, show me the body. You see you can't, therefore your Faith in it is only a supposition an unprovable theory evolutionist as fact when they have never proven anything. Sound's like your Faith and belief system is pertty weak if you ask me.
You see i can look around and see a marvelous and awesome created world and even comunicate with it's Creator. Whose shoes would you rather be in an evelutionest, who has no proof what so ever or a person who can see that there is a creation which requires a Creator and has proof all around him and can see it.
Open your eyes and behold the Majesty of Our Great God, it's every where you look, even your ability to reason and think declare God's Majesty, like the old adage, ” wake up and smell the roses”.
Well it been good talking with you Stu……….peace to you and yours…gene
Hi Gene
Quote Stu….> you can't seperate truth. If what you believe is truth of creation then peoduce it, your scientific peors cant seem to, but you are regarding what they say as Fact and truth, so i then can assume, basied on your words that would also be your (FAITH), a Faith that has never been proven at all. And if you believe in this , then halleous corpus, show me the body. You see you can't, therefore your Faith in it is only a supposition an unprovable theory evolutionist as fact when they have never proven anything. Sound's like your Faith and belief system is pertty weak if you ask me. The ‘body’ of your habeus corpus (not quite what that term means, as I understand it) is the sum of evidence we have about the history of life on earth. That is the fossil record, and the genetic record written, in DNA. This demonstrates the fact of evolution that changes have occurred over time in the species present on earth, and since there is no way for new animals to appear except through the reproduction of already existent ones, this fact is self evident. We also have observed many cases of evolutionary change, including new species appearing. The Theory of Natural Selection is our explanation for how the fossils came to be where they are (and “when” they were), and the patterns of difference in DNA corroborate that model to a high degree. Like all scientific theories Natural Selection could be wrong, or there may be other factors in play that cause speciation, but so far no-one has found anything that cannot in principle be explained by it.
Quote You see i can look around and see a marvelous and awesome created world and even comunicate with it's Creator. Whose shoes would you rather be in an evelutionest, who has no proof what so ever or a person who can see that there is a creation which requires a Creator and has proof all around him and can see it. Well as I have already explained, neither of us has proof. Evolution has lots of hard evidence, and makes predictions that come true. You have anecdotes. We should not make fun of your stories, but in the grand scheme of things they really don’t have the convincing power that the fossil and DNA records have. Also, you don’t actually have an explanation for how life came to be the way it is, and evolutionary theory certainly does. I see the universe as a marvelous and awe-inspiring place, but far more so than the bible describes in its rather dull way. Perhaps the ‘creator’ has shared some insights about the universe with you. You should pass these on to us. What does he or she say to you about that?
Quote Open your eyes and behold the Majesty of Our Great God, it's every where you look, even your ability to reason and think declare God's Majesty, like the old adage, ” wake up and smell the roses”. And to you 10-fold in the other direction!
Stuart
“The hypothesis that life has developed from inorganic matter is, at present, still an article of faith.”—Mathematician J. W. N. Sullivand (The Limitations of Science)
True in 1933 and still true today.
Not too long after darwins book, evolution became a scientific religion, of sorts. Almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to bend their observations to fit in with it.
If you're told over and over and over again by those in authority (the brainwashing) that science cannot be consistent with creation, you will most likely put faith in it. Orthodox science teaches evolution. What choice do those who enter these fields have? They must put faith in this principle teaching, this theory.
Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2007,17:13) “The hypothesis that life has developed from inorganic matter is, at present, still an article of faith.”—Mathematician J. W. N. Sullivand (The Limitations of Science) True in 1933 and still true today.
I think not true then, and still not true today.Stuart
Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2007,17:31) Not too long after darwins book, evolution became a scientific religion, of sorts. Almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to bend their observations to fit in with it. If you're told over and over and over again by those in authority (the brainwashing) that science cannot be consistent with creation, you will most likely put faith in it. Orthodox science teaches evolution. What choice do those who enter these fields have? They must put faith in this principle teaching, this theory.
Some people used evolution as a basis for a warped social philosophy, as well. As we have discussed already, what people hold as personal convictions are not evidence for or against a scientific theory. Please can you give evidence of your accusation about distorting observations.I have already given good answers to the points you raise in the second paragraph, and I don't see why you seem to feel the need to relitigate them. I reject them as the nonsense they are, for the reasons I gave earlier.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 28 2007,16:42) Well as I have already explained, neither of us has proof. Evolution has lots of hard evidence, and makes predictions that come true. You have anecdotes. We should not make fun of your stories, but in the grand scheme of things they really don’t have the convincing power that the fossil and DNA records have. Also, you don’t actually have an explanation for how life came to be the way it is, and evolutionary theory certainly does. I see the universe as a marvelous and awe-inspiring place, but far more so than the bible describes in its rather dull way. Perhaps the ‘creator’ has shared some insights about the universe with you. You should pass these on to us. What does he or she say to you about that?
Stu……> i not onlt have my own personel experience proofs but i have the fullfilled Prophesies as proofs as well. Fore instance just one out of hundreds. There was prophesied a man would be born named Cryus and everything he would do, 200 hundred years before He was Born, and all that happened, every detail is recorded in history. Was that just a coinsidence a billion to one chance, and that just only one of the prophesies that came true.you ask do i have a description of life as it came to be yes i do and not only that but even special characteristics of them.
Here is just a few, > Job 39:13- >the wings of the ostrich wave proudly, but are her wings and pinions like the kindly stork's, because she leaves her eggs on the ground and wams them in the dust; she forgets that a foot may break them. She “treats her young harshly,as though they wern't hers; Her labor is in vain, without concern, BECAUSE GOD deprived her of wisdom, and did not “ENDOW her with UNDERSTANDING. When she lifits herself on high She scorns the horse and it's rider. Have you (Job) given the horse strenght? Have you clothed his neck with a mane? Can you frighten him like a locust? His magestic snorting strikes terror. He paws in the valley, and rejoices in his strength; He gallops into the clash of arms. He mocks at fear, and is not frightened; Nor does he turn back from the sword. The quiver rattles against him, the glittering spear and javelin. He devours the distance with fierceness and rage; Nor does he come to a halt because the trumpet has sounded. At the blast of the trumpet he say's Aha!, He smells the battle from afar The thunder of captains and shouting. Does the Hawk fly by your (JOB) WISDOM, and spread it's wings toward the south? Does the Eagle mount up at your command and make it's nest on high, On the rock it dwells and resides, On the crag of the rock and the stronghold, from there it spies out the prey It's eyes observe from afar. Its young ones suck up blood and where the slain are there it is.Stu these are just a few of my proof, read Job 38-40 and see what you think, and again these are only a few i could show you. These texts give description of how and who brought these things into being.
Hope this helped …..gene
Hi Gene
I don’t understand how you think Job is explaining how the variety of species came to be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeciationHere are some reasons that Job is unreliable as an explanatory resource:
Job 39:13- >the wings of the ostrich wave proudly, but are her wings and pinions like the kindly stork's, because she leaves her eggs on the ground and wams them in the dust; she forgets that a foot may break them. She “treats her young harshly,as though they wern't hers; Her labor is in vain, without concern, BECAUSE GOD deprived her of wisdom, and did not “ENDOW her with UNDERSTANDING.
Ostriches are not cruel and stupid birds who abandon their eggs to die after laying them, as these verses imply. They are, in fact, careful and attentive parents. The male scoops out a hollow for the eggs, which are incubated by the females during the day and by the darker colored male at night — an arrangement that helps to conceal them. After the eggs are hatched, they are cared for by the mother for over a month, at which time the chicks can keep up with running adults.
Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?God has snow and hail stored up to use later “in time of trouble.”?! Is this an allegory or literally true?
Stuart
Stu….> God wasen't saying the ostrich abandoned their eggs, He meant they didn't build a nest for them like the stork does.
Stu lets look at somthing else in Job that God said.
Job38:24 ….>By what way is light defused, or the east wind scattered over the earth.
Two questions let's look at them, By what way is light (DEFUSED), or (DEVIDED), mankind didn't even know it was defused untill Issac Newton proved it was, three thousand years later. The very question asked Job show a Highly intellegent Mind was speaking.
Or the east wind scattered over the earth, there was no way they could have even known that a scientific explainable force was causing it to happen, But the One Speaking to Job understood there was a force causing it to happen, and we now three thousand years later know it's the sun rays that drive it, but at that time no one Knew even if there was a force causing it.
All these things were spoken way before they were every known and the fact they do exist shows an intellegent Creator Being. Any intellegent person would have to agree The one Speaking in the Book of Jod truly knew things that no one else know and three thousand years later were found to be true.
Stu an intellegent Being brought all we see in Nature into existence, it's just to complicated to have just mysterisously evolved from some slim pit somewhere.Stu,….> Order comes from order, order does not come from disorder. Nothing designs it's self, design comes from a designer. All things we see that man created came from man ,they didn't evolve into existence, how much more a super suffocated Human Being, it requires a designer.
Peace to you and yours Stu…..gene
Quote Please can you give evidence of your accusation about distorting observations. I just have my personal experience from biology. (and what certain professors on documentaries have said.) We knew the answers. We knew if we wanted the marks, we had to get the answers. We played with the numbers, all the time…everyone did.
Granted, this is only grade 12 biology. But, this is where people are trained how to “get results.” Starting the process at an early age is important.Quote (david @ Nov. 30 2007,14:57) Quote Please can you give evidence of your accusation about distorting observations. I just have my personal experience from biology. (and what certain professors on documentaries have said.) We knew the answers. We knew if we wanted the marks, we had to get the answers. We played with the numbers, all the time…everyone did.
Granted, this is only grade 12 biology. But, this is where people are trained how to “get results.” Starting the process at an early age is important.
And you are convinced of the conspiracy that it is they who are kidding eachother, into putting forward a theory which is lies? I see this as the creationist victimhood argument. Are we expected to feel sorry? Let's stop and think of all those excellent free-thinking school students who have ended up in religious schools (or just standard state schools in the UK) being guilt-tripped or bored senseless with inane drivel in RE. What about those who knew it was all fairy stories but “we had to get the answers”?I am certain that there would be a Nobel Prize for you if you could disprove the theory of evolution. What young gun biologist could resist such a coup on the whole of biological science if it could be done?
There is a reason why that hasn't happened in the whole history of the Nobel Prize. It is because the only conspirators are the ones who wrote the bible, or the Wedge Document; the ones who want to tell lies about science to our young people, but don't have the guts to take their 'theories' into universities and other biological research organisation. That in turn comes about because actually they don't have any theories.
Stuart
Hi Gene
Quote Stu….> God wasen't saying the ostrich abandoned their eggs, He meant they didn't build a nest for them like the stork does. I don’t want to labour the point Gene, but it does say ‘she leaves her eggs on the ground and wams them in the dust; she forgets that a foot may break them. She “treats her young harshly,as though they wern't hers’, which is pretty obviously not what happens at all.
Quote Stu lets look at somthing else in Job that God said. Job38:24 ….>By what way is light defused, or the east wind scattered over the earth.
Two questions let's look at them, By what way is light (DEFUSED), or (DEVIDED), mankind didn't even know it was defused untill Issac Newton proved it was, three thousand years later. The very question asked Job show a Highly intellegent Mind was speaking.
Or the east wind scattered over the earth, there was no way they could have even known that a scientific explainable force was causing it to happen, But the One Speaking to Job understood there was a force causing it to happen, and we now three thousand years later know it's the sun rays that drive it, but at that time no one Knew even if there was a force causing it.
There is no east wind over the whole earth – we don’t get any East wind at all where I live; and in any case the prevailing direction of the weather is from the West. All cultures ignorant of science claim that climatic effects are forces attributable to their gods. This is a very unremarkable description by the writer of Job.
To which of Isacc Newton’s experiments are you referring? I’m not convinced you know what you are talking about on this point. Are you still happy with the big store of hail and snow? How about the solid firmament with which no spacecraft has yet collided?
Quote All these things were spoken way before they were every known and the fact they do exist shows an intellegent Creator Being. Any intellegent person would have to agree The one Speaking in the Book of Jod truly knew things that no one else know and three thousand years later were found to be true. You have not shown me one single idea that was ‘spoken before they were every known’ without adding your modern interpretation to it, and I have shown you two that are plainly wrong.
Quote Stu an intellegent Being brought all we see in Nature into existence, it's just to complicated to have just mysterisously evolved from some slim pit somewhere. No, it’s not. The appearance of complexity can be explained, and demonstrated, quite easily. But OK, let’s pretend it is. The intelligent being must be even more complex than the things it brought into being. What yet more complex intelligence was in turn responsible for the creator of which you write? What made your god?
Quote Stu,….> Order comes from order, order does not come from disorder. How come crystals form in a salt solution then?
Quote Nothing designs it's self, design comes from a designer. All things we see that man created came from man ,they didn't evolve into existence, how much more a super suffocated Human Being, it requires a designer. It is true that design comes from a designer. Humans were not designed, and we have no hallmarks of design; however the fingerprints of natural selection are all over us. Why do you have a muscle connecting your foot with your knee (called the plantaris) that has no use to you whatsoever? 9% of humans don’t even have one. In our closest tree-dwelling ape-cousins the plantaris performs the important role of flexing all the toes at once to help with grip on branches. Is this evidence that we were unintelligently designed? Or is it put there to test christian faith? The real answer is that we had distant ancestors that lived in trees and needed plantaris muscles, which humans are now in the process of losing. There are countless other such examples of our poor ‘design’ (which are all explained perfectly well in terms of natural selection). Your lower back, appendix, goose pimples, prostate and wisdom teeth are other cases of natural selection doing its thing (or your designer proving his incompetence).
Stuart
Stu, the fact that people can reason and have the ability to make conscience moral decisions is proof that God exists. God made you to be an intellectual human being that wonders about such things as the existence of your own soul and the afterlife, etc. Humans have the ability to reason. Some say that “there is no such proof” and yet give no evidence on why they think that statement is correct.
Stu…..> Issac Newton descovered that light was devided into various colors and was able to eleminate the blue rings formed in ordinary telescopes by refrecting the light to eleminate it, this was a great discovery still used in our present telescopes called (refracture telescopes) You can get the proof yourself by going to the Sir Issac Newton Project on the wed and check it out, He is accredited with discovering that light is devided into various colors.
again my question is how did this intellegent question presented to Job, and three thousand years later proven, come to be without a Highely intellegent being expressing it.
I have other proofs also which i will bring up later, i don't have time now……> gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 01 2007,07:34) Stu…..> Issac Newton descovered that light was devided into various colors and was able to eleminate the blue rings formed in ordinary telescopes by refrecting the light to eleminate it, this was a great discovery still used in our present telescopes called (refracture telescopes) You can get the proof yourself by going to the Sir Issac Newton Project on the wed and check it out, He is accredited with discovering that light is devided into various colors. again my question is how did this intellegent question presented to Job, and three thousand years later proven, come to be without a Highely intellegent being expressing it.
I have other proofs also which i will bring up later, i don't have time now……> gene
Hi GeneYes the first part of Isaac Newton's life was full of brilliance (until he gave up science and went religious!). His refraction of white light through a prism into its constituent colours was just one of the works of a genius (and even more insightful was his recombination of the colours to give white again).
However, you have not explained what this has to do with the wind, specifically the East Wind scattered on the Earth, a wind that as described does not exist.You might also ask why the 'intellegent being' communicated with Job but not with 100,000s of others also living on the planet at the time. Could the reason be the same as the one explaining why it is generally only country folk from Southern states who are the subjects of alien abductions?
I look forward to being convinced by your other proofs. I'm sorry to say that Job has not done the job for me, if you will pardon the atrocious pun.
Stuart
Quote (acertainchap @ Dec. 01 2007,02:00) Stu, the fact that people can reason and have the ability to make conscience moral decisions is proof that God exists. God made you to be an intellectual human being that wonders about such things as the existence of your own soul and the afterlife, etc. Humans have the ability to reason. Some say that “there is no such proof” and yet give no evidence on why they think that statement is correct.
Hi acertainchapI know it is hard to judge the character of people you converse with online, but putting aside actions specifically to do with christianity, would you call me a moral or immoral person? I like to think I am ethical to at least the average of my well-behaved neighbours, and I actively deny that there is any supernatural source of my morality. Because human morality is pretty consistent across the world, a better explanation is that such behaviours are hard-wired in because they have a selective advantage to the survival of humans overall, not a supernatural origin.
Now you could argue that the Judeo-christian god has implanted a conscience in all humans regardless of the contrary beliefs they choose, and there is no direct way to disprove this, but another stated goal of the bible is to have everyone on earth 'see the light', and so far it is only about 1 in 3 humans who accept some version of this view of the world. So much for the conscience heading us all in the direction of christian belief. So, I hear you say 'what about free will?”, and I agree that either you have a supernatural implant or you have free will. If it is free will then why do atheists behave ethically (which they do, more so that believers in some areas of the world)?
We assume that we are the only species that can wonder about our own existence. We don't know that intelligent marine animals can't, but it is possible we are the only ones. You can attribute that to a god, which actually explains nothing at all, in fact it only ever asks more questions than it answers, but there is a much better explanation. In recent evolutionary history (the last few million years) our brains have got bigger and more complex relatively quickly, so we have the computing power to wonder. The ability to plan ahead is the advantage and the wondering about origins and purpose is the byproduct.
In the last part of your post you claim the existence of something for which you cannot provide evidence, and then you put the burden of disproof on others! I think you would find it a bit unfair if I challenged you to prove the non-existence of the fairies in my garden, bless their pudgy green fingers. You are the one making an extrordinary claim, which needs to be supported by extrordinary evidence. The burden of proof is with you!
Stuart
Stu…..> would you at least agree that the question about light presented to Job was a highly intellegent question, which could show and intellegent being's possibility.
Your question about the east wind is easly answered, and east wind comes from the west. So sometimes people say an east wind, meaning the wind is comming from the east. But if you were in a boat and you caught a east wind it would mean the wind was driving you eastward but the wind was actually comming from the west heading east. Its a matter of how you conceder it. My point was that science does acknowledge that the sun's rays do drive winds. Even small sun wheeles prove the presence of driving ray of the sun.
You comment about Newtons Genius being lost because He studied the bible has not ever been acknowledge by anyone that i know of. His genuis shined all the way through His entire life. Even Einstein, Said there was never a more intellegent person who ever lived. Now this highly intellegent human being whose analytic ability far exceeded anyone believed there was a God, in fact He wrote more about God then any of His other works. Could he just have been stupid , never mind we still to this day guide our spaceship through space by his analyitical mind's formulas. Don't you think this proof driven person may have also proven the existence of a Highly intellegent Creator Being. Don't you think it worth some consideration in our dialogue.
We could also get into prophesy where Daniel prophesied the pergression of the world ruling kingdoms in detail hundreds of year before it ever took place and even our prestent History teachs that these progression did take place one after another just like they were told they would. I'll look it up and present it for you for your evaluation when i get time to…….thanks ….gene
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