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Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 27 2007,02:09) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2007,21:25) 
STU is that you?
What is the meaning of this? That is not how we should act toward others.Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 21 2007,08:31) See Ya at my feet. Rev 3:9
(1) I never said I was a Jew
(2) If I will bow before the likes of you it ain't heaven, its the place you call hell.Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Hi Gene
Quote Stu…….> that's my point you are using a abridged Webster dictionary, and it leaves out the evidence part of the meanning. Can you please post what you mean, ie: the definition of the word evidence as you understand it. Then tell me what is wrong with my use in the sense of belief without evidence. Surely there is a need for such a word and ‘faith’ is the best one for the job.
Quote But what i am saying is that is not the original meaning of the word Faith, the Bible which preexists Webster's defination gave a different meaning of the word Faith, It includes the word (EVIDENCE) which we know is proof and not a supposition as the later changed meaning implies. So if you choose to believe the modern definition of Webster's abridiged (which allows a change in the meanings of word expressions through time), then you are obviously putting it in front of what the bible say's is the meaning of the word Faith. I really can’t see how this works. The original scriptures were not written in English, which did not even exist in its current form until about the C13th. No English translation of the bible predates the English language! What we are really up against here is a translation of an aramaic / greek / hebrew / ?? word.
Quote So if you see the word Faith as believing in somthing you can't prove as Webester's abridge say's, then you will always think that Faith is a supposition or an assumption without no basis of fact. Unfortunately thats the way most the world see's it also. My standard of demonstrating something to be true, from the scientific tradition, is that the evidence (as in scientific evidence, not anecdote or personal testemony) is so good that it would be perverse to deny the fact. Does religious faith meet this standard? Otherwise, how can we call it anything other than personal assertion?
Quote You as well as all have a right for your proof's, why would God, who is a God of proof ever want you or anyone else to believe in somthing they can't prove. God gives proof, just as it say's God has given to all a measure of Faith, if you look hard enough you will find it Stu. I dare say when humans look hard enough there is the capacity to find anything they want to find. Is faith the result of humans looking so hard that they accept the most pleasing hallucination?
Quote My hope is that God will help you find true Faith Stu. You keep talking about me personally and I’m not sure why. All I can assume I that you somehow think I am convertible. I’m sorry to say that I react badly to being patronised like that. For me, accepting the mythology of the Judeo-Christian bible would be to assent to a kind of brain death, for as long as my faculties allow it, I find more astonishing wonder and beauty in the universe revealed through objective eyes than any clouded and inconsistent holy book I have ever read, including yours. There are those who find literature value in it, but I find it a very dull read. There is a grain of truth at the heart of christianity: do unto others… I find much of the rest to be anti-human and egocentric.
I remain interested in the nature of faith.
Stuart
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 27 2007,13:46) Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Hi KenrchIs it the nature of faith that the faithful quote verses that sound like cheesy lines from B-grade horror movies?
Do you really have faith in the dangerous fantasy world of revelation? It kind of makes Harry Potter sound like the Osmonds.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 27 2007,13:58) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 27 2007,13:46) Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Hi KenrchIs it the nature of faith that the faithful quote verses that sound like cheesy lines from B-grade horror movies?
Do you really have faith in the dangerous fantasy world of revelation? It kind of makes Harry Potter sound like the Osmonds.
Stuart
I didn't know you say you are a JEW?Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
This post was addressed to TOW. But if you believe you are a JEW
then you can have part of also.
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 27 2007,14:17) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 27 2007,13:58) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 27 2007,13:46) Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Hi KenrchIs it the nature of faith that the faithful quote verses that sound like cheesy lines from B-grade horror movies?
Do you really have faith in the dangerous fantasy world of revelation? It kind of makes Harry Potter sound like the Osmonds.
Stuart
I didn't know you say you are a JEW?Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
This post was addressed to TOW. But if you believe you are a JEW
then you can have part of also.
Hi Kenrcha) Where does it say it is posted to Towshab?
b) How do you read a claim of Jewish ancestry into my post?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 27 2007,14:29) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 27 2007,14:17) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 27 2007,13:58) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 27 2007,13:46) Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Hi KenrchIs it the nature of faith that the faithful quote verses that sound like cheesy lines from B-grade horror movies?
Do you really have faith in the dangerous fantasy world of revelation? It kind of makes Harry Potter sound like the Osmonds.
Stuart
I didn't know you say you are a JEW?Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
This post was addressed to TOW. But if you believe you are a JEW
then you can have part of also.
Hi Kenrcha) Where does it say it is posted to Towshab?
b) How do you read a claim of Jewish ancestry into my post?
Stuart
Posted: Nov. 22 2007,01:27
Posted: Nov. 22 2007,01:31Posted: Nov. 27 2007,11:31 QUOTE
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 21 2007,08:31)
See Ya at my feet. Rev 3:9(1) I never said I was a Jew
(2) If I will bow before the likes of you it ain't heaven, its the place you call hell.Group: Regular Members
Posts: 3317
Joined: Oct. 2005
Posted: Nov. 27 2007,13:46 EDIT QUOTE
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.Quote (Stu @ Nov. 27 2007,13:53) My standard of demonstrating something to be true, from the scientific tradition, is that the evidence (as in scientific evidence, not anecdote or personal testemony) is so good that it would be perverse to deny the fact. Does religious faith meet this standard? Otherwise, how can we call it anything other than personal assertion?
Stu…..> you asert that (YOUR) standard definition of what truth is, is basied on scientific evidence through scientific evaluation. But let me ask you one qusetion then how do you know what an electron looks like have you ever seen one, the answer i believe is NO, but you believe it based on certian unseen properties and actions they display, right.Our bible say's no one has seen God at any time. We believe in God based on His response to Us. God said I am found by those who seek me. Not by those who don't seek Him. As I told you before i can't give you that evidence, you have to seek it yourself, but to think that we all are hallucinating who have our proofs, is and false asertion on your part.
The word Faith has nothing to do with science anyway, it only has to do with our God and the proof's He gives us. That is also why the word must derive it's meaning from the Bible, not a abrigded dictionary that change with time.
The only way you will ever get to know the nature of true Faith is to experience it yourself.
give it a try Stu……..Peace to you and yours……..gene
Hi Gene
Quote Quote (Stu @ Nov. 27 2007,13:53) My standard of demonstrating something to be true, from the scientific tradition, is that the evidence (as in scientific evidence, not anecdote or personal testemony) is so good that it would be perverse to deny the fact. Does religious faith meet this standard? Otherwise, how can we call it anything other than personal assertion?
Stu…..> you asert that (YOUR) standard definition of what truth is, is basied on scientific evidence through scientific evaluation. But let me ask you one qusetion then how do you know what an electron looks like have you ever seen one, the answer i believe is NO, but you believe it based on certian unseen properties and actions they display, right.I haven’t personally seen a blue whale either. I have no problem about the fact of the existence of blue whales based on photographs of them. There is the same kind of real, unique evidence for electrons and none of the same type for your god. Can you put your god though a diffraction grating and see an interference pattern on a screen? Can you fire tiny bullets at a layer of atoms and show that it is only repulsion between gods that gives the illusion of particles taking up volume? How does the information that starts in my computer end up in yours? This is real evidence that can be gained by anyone who tries the experiment, and the results are identical every time for every competent person. I don’t think your ‘evidence’ for god is capable of that. Personal revelation to 2,000,000,000 christians gives 2,000,000,000 different gods.
Quote Our bible say's no one has seen God at any time. We believe in God based on His response to Us. God said I am found by those who seek me. Not by those who don't seek Him. Well that would be right, I have not sought a non-existent deity, and I am not surprised not to have found one. Do you expect to “find” Zeus? If not, why not? Your ‘evidence’ is anecdotal, and I would lay money that you would not be happy to take a pharmaceutical drug based on the anecdotal evidence of its safety. You would expect proper double-blind trials to the highest standard. Why can’t you then accept the same demands for real evidence when it is you putting forward anecdotes?
Quote The word Faith has nothing to do with science anyway, it only has to do with our God and the proof's He gives us. That is also why the word must derive it's meaning from the Bible, not a abrigded dictionary that change with time. So you are not claiming any real, testable effects, here. Your god may as well not exist for all the effect he has on real matter in our material lives. That is an extreme deist position.
Quote The only way you will ever get to know the nature of true Faith is to experience it yourself. give it a try Stu Once again, this worldview is not something I relish. I am still interested in how people come to have such a mode of thinking.
Stuart
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 26 2007,20:46) Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Exactly. Never said I was a Jew. You're barking up the wrong GT verse. You can't even read your own bible correctly.Quote (Stu @ Nov. 26 2007,20:58) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 27 2007,13:46) Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Hi KenrchIs it the nature of faith that the faithful quote verses that sound like cheesy lines from B-grade horror movies?
Do you really have faith in the dangerous fantasy world of revelation? It kind of makes Harry Potter sound like the Osmonds.
Stuart
He just likes the idea of people bowing and scraping before him because nobody does it for him here.Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 27 2007,19:30) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 26 2007,20:58) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 27 2007,13:46) Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Hi KenrchIs it the nature of faith that the faithful quote verses that sound like cheesy lines from B-grade horror movies?
Do you really have faith in the dangerous fantasy world of revelation? It kind of makes Harry Potter sound like the Osmonds.
Stuart
He just likes the idea of people bowing and scraping before him because nobody does it for him here.
When I think of Vincent Price or Boris Karlov reading verses from Revelation, the whole idea of the paranoid end-times lets attack some Middle-Eastern countries nonsense seems to lose a bit of its sting. Notwithstanding the suffering on both sides of the West Bank conflict and the related border skirmishes, do you think the threat is real, or grand-scale posturing in the name of a fantasy doctrine?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 27 2007,02:40) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 27 2007,19:30) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 26 2007,20:58) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 27 2007,13:46) Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Hi KenrchIs it the nature of faith that the faithful quote verses that sound like cheesy lines from B-grade horror movies?
Do you really have faith in the dangerous fantasy world of revelation? It kind of makes Harry Potter sound like the Osmonds.
Stuart
He just likes the idea of people bowing and scraping before him because nobody does it for him here.
When I think of Vincent Price or Boris Karlov reading verses from Revelation, the whole idea of the paranoid end-times lets attack some Middle-Eastern countries nonsense seems to lose a bit of its sting. Notwithstanding the suffering on both sides of the West Bank conflict and the related border skirmishes, do you think the threat is real, or grand-scale posturing in the name of a fantasy doctrine?Stuart
Who knows. Part of the push by the evangelicals (and the disguised evangelicals, messyanic Jews) to convert Jews over to Christianity is some end times thing. I guess they're all tired of this world so they want to force the new one. They like the new one so much because, like Ken, they get the idea from their bible that they will be rulers. Sounds like they are power hungry to me.Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 28 2007,00:13) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 27 2007,02:40) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 27 2007,19:30) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 26 2007,20:58) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 27 2007,13:46) Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Hi KenrchIs it the nature of faith that the faithful quote verses that sound like cheesy lines from B-grade horror movies?
Do you really have faith in the dangerous fantasy world of revelation? It kind of makes Harry Potter sound like the Osmonds.
Stuart
He just likes the idea of people bowing and scraping before him because nobody does it for him here.
When I think of Vincent Price or Boris Karlov reading verses from Revelation, the whole idea of the paranoid end-times lets attack some Middle-Eastern countries nonsense seems to lose a bit of its sting. Notwithstanding the suffering on both sides of the West Bank conflict and the related border skirmishes, do you think the threat is real, or grand-scale posturing in the name of a fantasy doctrine?Stuart
Who knows. Part of the push by the evangelicals (and the disguised evangelicals, messyanic Jews) to convert Jews over to Christianity is some end times thing. I guess they're all tired of this world so they want to force the new one. They like the new one so much because, like Ken, they get the idea from their bible that they will be rulers. Sounds like they are power hungry to me.
Hey why is it if I said anything like what you guys are saying I'm mean, not loving, and whatever they can think of.But I appreciate both of you putting down scripture because it shows the future of this place, HA!
And no one will stand up because they fear not being popular! HA ha ha
You guys just bring the end closer by pulling up the weeds. Could you please hurry up!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 27 2007,17:32) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 27 2007,13:53) My standard of demonstrating something to be true, from the scientific tradition, is that the evidence (as in scientific evidence, not anecdote or personal testemony) is so good that it would be perverse to deny the fact. Does religious faith meet this standard? Otherwise, how can we call it anything other than personal assertion?
Stu…..> our God is unseen, but like the atom, his effects are seen. You never seen a blue whale you say but believe they exist because you've seen pictures, thats interesting because the blue whale is just one out of millions of proof of a creator, an even major scientics are more and more saying the same thing, but you don't or are unwilling to even admit the possibility of such a creator. Do you relize what the chances of a human being to have evolved are. I have heard it defined this way, your odds are better to take a pile of scrap iron and through it into the air and it fall together into a new car then for one human being to have evolved.
You wan't proof just conceder what's around you, ” the invisible attributes of Him (GOD) are CLEARLY SEEN by the things that are CREATED. Things are just to complex to have come into existence any other way, common sence tell you that, and even many scientist are also beginning to see that.Again God has shown us by the creation He exists and will also show His personel presence if you seek to find out, and if you don't seek and try to get your own proof, why disagree with those who have got their proof.
Truth and proof are great things to have Stu, but as i said before it's up to you to get your's, not any one else to give it to you, because they can't.
My hope is that My God will grant you proof you need, i know He can…….gene
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