The Nature of Faith

Participant

Hi Irene,

I believe that those scriptures have a few different interpretations. I believe that both Stu and Tow believe Jesus came “in the the flesh” but that he was just a man, or perhaps a teacher? I can't remember now what they have said. They do not deny him in that way. Also, “Christ” has been shown to mean “annointed” which is true. So, I am still searching this true meaning out. Thanks for your concern though, Sis.

November 22, 2007 at 9:10 am#72610

IM4Truth

Participant

Mandy Tow does not belief that Christ is our Savior and our Messiah. That is the same then not believing that He is the Son of God. They, Stu does not even belief in a God! And Tow does not belief that Jesus is the Son of God. Sorry Mandy I do not agree with you, you have to do what you want to do. You have told us over and over how much of a hard time you are having. You belief in them, it seems. How can you see those scriptures in a diffrent light, sorry that does not say that. It is clear.
Sister you might reconsider, I hope you will. Or you might loose your faith all together. Sorry I have to give you this warning, because I love you and I do not want to see you beliefing what those two are telling you. You have made me very, very sad tonight.
I will continue praying for you, and please do not be upset with me, I want the best for you.

Peace and Love Irene :blues: :blues: :blues:

November 22, 2007 at 9:18 am#72611

Participant

Irene,

I can barely keep my eyes open so I will make this short. I was reading before turning in and I came accross 2 Cor. 4:16-18 and I thought of you! I know your health is troubling and anyway, you are in my thoughts. You are a mothering soul here for us all, and I thank you. As a mom, we know, that we must allow our children to search and ponder things that maybe we already have the answers to. It's hard to watch them struggle and question – but they must in order to grow and learn. This is the journey that I am on.

Sweet dreams,
Mandy

November 22, 2007 at 10:00 am#72615

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 22 2007,19:32)

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 22 2007,19:15)

Can you ask serious and fundamental questions about how the universe works, even questioning everything you hold dear, or does this require you to suspend faith for a while?

I'm pretty tired, but I'll give this a shot.

To question one's faith is a no-no if you are a church goer. Especially if you are in ministry in that church. I speak from personal experience on this one. I was knee-deep in ministry (leading worship, teaching classes, youth counseling and the list goes on and on). When I openly confessed to not believing in the Trinity anymore…….I was out. Oh, I could attend the church if I wanted to but as for ministry – ah, no way! So, OK, I left church. One of the best things I've done in a long time.

Faith is another word for HOPE. We can't see God – we hope he is there. We can't see God – we have faith and assurance (hope) that he is there. Without this, we are told in scripture, it is impossible to please God. So you ask, what if he is not there?

Does pondering the universe mean we have to suspend our hope for a while? Does pondering if God really even exists mean we have to suspend our hope that he does? The answer is yes. Who would want to give up hope? To be hopeless……. now that would be a sorry state.

Without hope, what do you have?

Without faith that you have what you hope for, what do you have?

I hope God is real. I have assurance that what I hope for is real and mine. I have faith.

Goodnight and Happy Thanksgiving,
Mandy

You make being knee-deep in “ministry” sound as desireable as being knee-deep in sewage!!

Some Alpha course material was once sent to me at my workplace. It promised “exploration of christian faith” which, as a couple of accounts of such courses go, consists of the course presenters only answering questions that already accept the existence of a deity. So much for “exploring” in any depth, I thought.

From what you write, faith puts one in a position of being unable to allow free thinking about what might or might not “be out there”, for fear (?) of the negative possibilities that one might lose hope.

It is a kind of fear that might bind one into a faith? Is this not akin to burying one's head in the sand and wishful-thinking / hoping for the best?

Stuart

November 22, 2007 at 10:05 am#72616

Participant

Hi again Not3in1

Reading your two last posts (and others) suggests that you are at least partly prepared to put your faith at some risk in order to learn more. Kejonn seems to have a similar enquiring attitude. There is a range of willingness to put faith at risk for the chance to learn, from those who just don't want to know partly towards those who want the truth whether or not their original kind of faith will stay relevant for them after their new learning.

Stuart

November 22, 2007 at 3:27 pm#72623

journey

Participant

1 Peter

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you,

5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. [/B]

November 22, 2007 at 7:01 pm#72628

Participant

Stu……> in one of your posts you brought up the idea of Faith equating with evidence or proof, I totally agree with that statement. While our modern dictionaries say
Faith is to believe in somthing you cant prove the word of God says Faith is the (evidence) of things hoped for, and evidence is proof. Fifty years ago i was just like you hearing every talking about God and Jesus all the time. But like you i throught i personly had no real proof of a God, i didn't deny there was a God i just didn't have my own proof of His evistence. So I shearched the scriptures to see if i could find a place where i could get my proof of theis invisible God everyone was talking about. I finely came across a place where God made a challenge, it was in Malachi 3:10 where God said “Bring all the tithes into the storehouse That there may be food in My house, and (TRY) Me now in this,;Say's the Lord of Hosts. If I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessings that there will not be room enough to recieve it. Please understand here it wasn't the tithing or the money that was the issue here, it was i wanted proof of this invisible God both of His existence and that He was dealing with me personely. At that time in my life i needed every penny i earned to pay my bills, But i needed to know more if there was a real God, so i decided to take a tenth of one pay check and send it to a church, not because i was supporting a church but for the simple reason to prove God by His own words. So I sent the money, my wife got very angery with me because we needed the money to live on,but told her i would not do it again if God didn't respond to His word like He said he would.
Three day later a frinend came over and said he knew of a old hay bailer that i could by for fifty dollars, i would by things a repair them to make side money for us. So i went and brought the bailer and parked it by my house and the next day a man knocked on my door and ask if i would be interested in selling it and i said i hadn't repaired it yet, he ask if i would sell it just like it was. i said i would and what would he give me for it, he offered me $250 for it i took the deal. But i thought this could have just been luck. So I tried it again and somthing else happened and i keep tithing and it kept happening, infact it happened so much it became funny, the more i did it the more it just kept happening it was hilarious, there isn't room here to tell it all. But remember it wasn't about the money it was about the Proof of God existence and Him being in my personel life. In fact when i joined the church i was tithing to, who put people under the law of tithing the blessings stopped. You see it had nothing to do with money, it had to do with testing God's words.
i do agree with you to some extent that today the meaning of the word Faith is justa(supposition) and the idea of real evidence is not tied to the word faith. To believe in something without personel proof is an assumption. Jesus said when the Son of Man comes will He find FAITH on the earth.Many by into religions put before them without any proof what so ever.
The blind leading the blind. Stu you sound breave enough so Put God to the test and see for yourself, you may be amazed at what you find out.

May the God who has proven Himself to me many, many times, grant you His proofs. I will pray that He will reveal Himself to you brother……..gene

November 23, 2007 at 4:49 am#72659

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 22 2007,21:00)

You make being knee-deep in “ministry” sound as desireable as being knee-deep in sewage!!

Well, this might be your impression but it couldn't be farther from the truth. As anyone who has been in nearly full-time ministry knows – it's tons of fun! There is something about belonging to a cohesive group who is united in one purpose – to worship and serve God! Amazing things happen when God is your purpose. My church ministry days are among some of the happiest memories of my life.

November 23, 2007 at 4:56 am#72660

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 22 2007,21:05)

Hi again Not3in1

Stuart

Roughly what you are saying is correct. However, I don't believe you must put your hope in (or for) God aside to learn and explore. Unless of course you find at the end of your journey that there is no God? But how would anyone be able to “find” this out? You cannot prove God nor can you dis-prove God, as we have already discussed at length. In the end you must pick up some sort of faith and continue on your journey – whatever road you may be on

Everyone –
Some of my posts as of late have concerned quite a few of you. I appreciate your concern. Please do not worry that I will turn my back on God or that you will lose me as a sister (as some have expressed their concern). I am merely searching and finding…… I did this back in 2003 when I was studying the Trinity as well. I'm sure the majority of you who have expressed concern for my salvation are glad that I went on that search (with the exception of WJ) because it ultimately led to me disbelieving in the so-called Trinity. So not all searching is bad. :;):

November 23, 2007 at 6:49 am#72664

Participant

Hi Gene

Interesting post. You have proved god's existence and the financial rewards to be gained from belief in him. Have I got that right? Is your faith a kind of stockmarket? Have you shown beyond any doubt the existence of a deity?

What do others think?

Stuart

November 23, 2007 at 7:05 am#72666

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 23 2007,15:56)

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 22 2007,21:05)

Hi again Not3in1

Stuart

How do you “find out” there is a god in the first place, for you to then find out that there is no such thing? This is one of the most interesting aspects of faith. What causes its complete gain or loss? in your case you rejected a portion of what others believe with equal vehemence.

Actually even more interesting is your second paragraph. We all should have no issue with the idea that an online community of people would share their concerns for the wellbeing of others as humans do face-to-face, but this seems a bit different, as if faith is so fragile that the person needs to be reminded not to leave it behind. Is that what churches are for? Do the faithful constantly need reinforcing in an environment that tolerates little dissent? How robust is the faith of people who “need” to attend a church? I just wonder how many churches would hold an open forum discussion on the trinity instead of a service of worship one Sunday – questioning even the finer (and some would say unimportant) details is enough to get you kicked out, if my reading of your experience is correct. This perhaps returns to the question of whether faith has to hush up debate to maintain its mystique.

Stuart

November 23, 2007 at 7:08 am#72667

Participant

Quote (journey @ Nov. 23 2007,02:27)

1 Peter

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you,

5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. [/B]

Hi Journey

Are you saying that a motivating force for one's faith is buying into sympathy for the suffering of the messiah? Some call this a victimhood mentality. I presume you would disagree?

Stuart

November 23, 2007 at 3:29 pm#72689

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 23 2007,17:49)

Hi Gene

What do others think?

Stuart

Stu…..> you missed the point, it wasn't about the money as i explained clearly in the post, it was about proving there was a God and His dealing with me personly. You were inquiring about proof of God, I was showing you how i started to prove Him in my life, was by taking up (His challenge)in Malachi 3:10. You are right through I do put my stock in God in fact all my stock is in Him and Jesus the Christ and it isn't without proof that i do it either. I have only told you one proof out of many proofs I have been given in my life, infact it would proberly take four or five pages of posts to tell you them all.

I thought you were breave enough to (Try) God's word to see if He existes or not. But it appears you are not, or perhaps to fearfull to try. Interesting, you put others down for their faith and there evidences they have and yet to fearfull to get your own. You are in hardly any position to question anyones faith seeing you unwilling to put God to the Test and get your own. Are all atheist that way?. It does say the Fearfull and unbelieving will have their part in the Lake of Fire, and our God is a consumming fire. He will just have to show you who He really is and then you won't lake faith any longer will you.
Good luck your going to need it Stu.

I will prey that God will move on you and make Himself known to you……..> gene

November 23, 2007 at 4:06 pm#72695

Participant

to all….> true faith is always tied to proof, Faith is the substence of things hoped for, (the evidence) of things not seen. None of us has seen God at any time, so how are we to have Faith then? how can we have this evidence of things not seen. When we pray and things happen in our lives that we prayed for, isn't that evidence given to us by our God who we can't see. I am willing to bet everyone here who has a real relationship with God the Father can list many proof given to them, infact without being able to, would be a reason to dought our Faith. Faith seems to to measurable in scripture, you can have little or a lot of faith. The parable of the unjust Judge proves that, how God did somthing for someone and after a time they forgot their proof given them, to the point Jesus said when the son of man return will He find Faith in the earth. Its important we go back and revesit those time when God moved in our lives and not let them slip from our memory's. I believe God has helped a lot of people in their lives and they simple forget it. Faith is personel “have you faith have it unto yourselfs” it say's. I believe what many call faith today is really suposition, and does not contain Hard evidence as expressed in the bible meaning of the word. But God is able to give us the Hard evidence if we are will to seek it and remember it. When we prey we need to truly look with expectation, for the things we ask for, and when they come realize it is another proof of our invisible God”s presents.

Peace to all who love truth and seek God in their lives……..gene

November 23, 2007 at 6:34 pm#72704

IM4Truth

Participant

Gen. We were in the Catholic Church from birth until my Husband was 47 and I was 46. We taught our 4 Children the trinity doctrine and though that the Catholic Church was the only true Church. Till on day a little gray haired man started to say something about the Catholic Church. We had never even looked into the Bible we had the Catechism, and that is all we needed. Boy, were we surprised. The biggest thing that got me was about Maria. She is a big Lady in the Catholic Church, but we know now that is not Maria at all that they worship. So we left the Catholic Church. In December of 1985 my Husband and I were Baptized according to scripture. The first day after baptism was amazing. I will never forget it. I was sitting on the Sewing Machine and things did not go right and I was cursing over and over again. I had no idea I was doing that. Especially those for pee ts sake or gosh, darn which in reality mean worse. So I started to overcome them. That was my beginning with the walk with Jesus and the Father. Whenever I asked God please show me my faults, He did big times. We learn such bad habits from others that do not care about God's ways. That is why I feel so strongly to stay away from those that do not belief in God or Jesus. Scripture tells us that if you don't have Jesus you do not have the Father either.
The Father does call His people out of the worldly churches and it is up to us to learn what is right or wrong. With God's Holy Spirit we should know.
Ken has given us some really good scriptures what we should do. The last one I really like
Math. 10:33 ” But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in Heaven.”

Peace and Love Mrs.

November 23, 2007 at 9:03 pm#72719

Participant

Hi Gene

Quote

as i explained clearly in the post, it was about proving there was a God and His dealing with me personly. You were inquiring about proof of God You are right through I do put my stock in God in fact all my stock is in Him and Jesus the Christ and it isn't without proof that i do it either. I have only told you one proof out of many proofs I have been given in my life, infact it would proberly take four or five pages of posts to tell you them all.

This would seem to be a paradox. If you use the same dictionary as I do, and you are consistent with your definitions, then proof is a mathematical thing, and evidence is a tangible, measurable object or event that can be (in principle) observed or measured by anyone. I thought the point of faith (as defined) is to believe things despite the fact that you can’t “see” them. Otherwise there can be a scientific theory of god’s existence. Is there such a theory? You go one step further to the mathematical idea of proof. What is you actual proof of god, or do you mean to say that you have subjective experiences that convince you of such a thing, but may or may not convince others?

Quote

Thanks for the good luck wishes, Gene! I can smell the sulfur already.

Stuart
:;):

November 23, 2007 at 9:11 pm#72720

Participant

Hi again Gene

Quote

Isn’t that just humans’ notoriously poor aptitude for recognising coincidence, and fantastical ability to selectively see patterns?

Quote

I am willing to bet everyone here who has a real relationship with God the Father can list many proof given to them, infact without being able to, would be a reason to dought our Faith. Faith seems to to measurable in scripture, you can have little or a lot of faith. The parable of the unjust Judge proves that, how God did somthing for someone and after a time they forgot their proof given them, to the point Jesus said when the son of man return will He find Faith in the earth. Its important we go back and revesit those time when God moved in our lives and not let them slip from our memory's.

Does faith need repiling and a new roof every once in a while, for fear of it leaking or blowing away altogether?

Quote

I believe God has helped a lot of people in their lives and they simple forget it. Faith is personel “have you faith have it unto yourselfs” it say's. I believe what many call faith today is really suposition, and does not contain Hard evidence as expressed in the bible meaning of the word. But God is able to give us the Hard evidence if we are will to seek it and remember it. When we prey we need to truly look with expectation, for the things we ask for, and when they come realize it is another proof of our invisible God”s presents. Peace to all who love truth and seek God in their lives……..gene

Gene I really struggle to see the difference between what you write here and the strategies of a stage illusionist. You casually claim the definitions of words that others would not recognise. Faith, evidence, proof are very well defined; I wonder what your definitions are. Do you thing I could have this kind of faith if I just squeezed my eyes harder and tried to see the world in a different way to the one I see with them fully open? Does faith require eye squeezing?

Stuart

November 23, 2007 at 10:22 pm#72731

kenrch

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 24 2007,08:11)

Hi again Gene

Quote

Isn’t that just humans’ notoriously poor aptitude for recognising coincidence, and fantastical ability to selectively see patterns?

Quote

Does faith need repiling and a new roof every once in a while, for fear of it leaking or blowing away altogether?

Quote

Stuart

YOURS is up to the amazing faith that ever was! Do you believe that an out board motor which is described in a single cell to be an accident? HAVE YOU “LOOKED” AT IT!?

Has an out board motor just appeared?~!

I worked as mechanic so when I was told that God was a lot of BS
I gave this analogy. What if you were to place all 'what it takes”
to create an running engine into a mixer and spin it as long as you would like. Do you think that after spinning all the bolts would fall into place all the bolts would be tighten to torqued sepecification to what was needed to run the engine?

PLEASE! Common sense tells you that this impossible!

Accidents DON'T just happen! They are caused! If these are accidents then WHAT Caused them?

November 24, 2007 at 1:38 am#72754

Participant

Stu…..> you say isn't that just humans nortoriously poor attitude for recognizing coincidence and fantastical ability to selectively see patterns?.

I could agree with you if somthing was to just happen once in a while, But if everytime it would happen and even others saw it happening continually it then cannot be a coincedence can it. But me telling you or anyone else that doesen't give you faith does it. No you must get your own proof, that is if you are not to fearfull to (TRY) yourself. And for someone who has never Tried to get your own proof, what right do you have to question or cast despersion on others who have allready
gotten their proof. You are in no position to question faith seeing you have none. It say's (have you Faith, Have it unto yourself) So it up to you to get your proof not everyone else to give it to you. And you not believing in God doesn't change truth does it. If you want to believe the millions of earths species came from a slim pool thats your rigth so produce your evidence of it, if you can't and still believe in that, then i would have to say your belief lacks proof and your faith is a suposition you or anyone else can't prove. At least i have my proof's in the unseen God where's yours. you are like a ship adrift without a rutter or compass to guide it. I live in this world with Hope of a future, you live in this world without any hope. I would rather live with Hope in this world and the world to come, not without Hope as you do . Stu you are in no position to even talk about FAITH, seening you have none.

gene

November 24, 2007 at 4:28 am#72762