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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2010,06:30) Mike Now give us an example of what you are saying in the NT scriptures that prove the worship to the Father and Jesus is different!
Blessings WJ
Hi Wj,The only example I can give is the inferred one that you also, as an intelligent person should arrive at:
None of the people recorded as worshipping Jesus actually thought Jesus was God Almighty. The blind man who received sight didn't even know he was the prophesied about “Son of man”, let alone God. And Pharisees watched this happen! Don't you think they would have said or done something if they saw this man doing an inappropriate act of worship to someone they considered just a man?
Wj, you and Kathi stumped me with this “Jesus worship” stuff recently – and I said I would research the subject. I did. And now I'm giving you the results of my research and prayer.
Do you agree my explanation is logical? If not, why?
peace and love
mikeElizabeth,
It is for the very reason you ask the question that I ask for people's definition of Worship.
Nearly everyone did not respond.
Yet, they all say 'Yeah I worship!'
How do you worship?
'I sing and dance!'Ok, where does singing and dancing – Praise, Glory and Honor, change to Worship?
Mankind can sing songs and dance to others of mankind.
What is unique about singing, dancing, praising, glorifying and honoring that separates that given to another of mankind from that given to God or Christ?
Why and how is Worship to be a unique act given only to God?
What is unique about God from all other entities?
God gave us 'Life', life through His Holy Spirit, life by our own Spirit ('And he breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life', which is the Spirit of man.)
The worship that God desires is that we give ourselves in total servitude, obedience and devotion only to him through the spirit of our being, offer that spirit as a sacrifice to him, for he gave it to us first. To do nothing of ourselves and be like his devoted and obedient servant Son, Jesus Christ.
Did Jesus teach us to Sing and Dance in Worship to His God, His Father and our Father?
Did he, rather, teach us to pray?
…To 'Worship God in Spirit and in Truth'?
What is 'In Spirit'? Not in the Flesh, not by Fleshly means?
What is 'In Truth'? Well, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, but also this is 'without deceit', 'with a humble heart and mind', 'in all sincerity'.…And to do it in private?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2010,15:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2010,06:30) Mike Now give us an example of what you are saying in the NT scriptures that prove the worship to the Father and Jesus is different!
Blessings WJ
Hi Wj,The only example I can give is the inferred one that you also, as an intelligent person should arrive at:
None of the people recorded as worshipping Jesus actually thought Jesus was God Almighty. The blind man who received sight didn't even know he was the prophesied about “Son of man”, let alone God. And Pharisees watched this happen! Don't you think they would have said or done something if they saw this man doing an inappropriate act of worship to someone they considered just a man?
Wj, you and Kathi stumped me with this “Jesus worship” stuff recently – and I said I would research the subject. I did. And now I'm giving you the results of my research and prayer.
Do you agree my explanation is logical? If not, why?
peace and love
mike
MikeNo! I don't agree. For the word “proskyneō” was a word used by the Jews for worship to the Father!
Jesus himself used the word “proskyneō” in describing “True Worship” to the Father in John chapter 4!
The Apostles that were under the direction of the Holy Spirit penned examples where they worshipped Jesus using the word “proskyneō”.
Remember John and the Apostles understood what Jesus words in John 4:24 meant when they wrote the examples of Jesus being worshipped.
Yet none of the Apostles writings of Jesus being worshipped gives any indication that Jesus corrected those that worshipped him!
None of the Apostles gives us any other example where the word “proskyneō” was directed to anyone else but the Father and Jesus.
You say …
The only example I can give is the inferred one that you also, as an intelligent person should arrive at:You give me your inference, and I stand on the facts!
The burden of proof is on you my friend!
Blessings WJ
hi all
please do not stumble on this,as true christians we only have to worship the father,no one else not even Christ.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 21 2010,07:41) hi all please do not stumble on this,as true christians we only have to worship the father,no one else not even Christ.
Hi terra,So simple, yet so true!
peace and love
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Feb. 20 2010,07:34) LU
in your reasoning it imply that we are not responsible for our action ?
but CHRIST SAYS “BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE JUDGED”SO IF WE WITH THE KNOWLEDGE WE HAVE ,SPEAK NOT THE TRUTH WHAT IS IN OUR HEART KNOWING THAT GOD IS WATCHING US,
THE SCRIPTURE ALSO SAYS “THAT IF SOME ONE HURTS ONE OF MY (JESUS)SHEEP HE WILL OLD THAT AGAINS US,BECAUSE WE HAVE HAD NO CONSIDERATION FOR THE WEAK SHEEP OF THE LORD.WOULD THIS BEAVIOR NOT SHOW RATHER WHAT KIND OF FAITH THAT PERSON HAS IN GOD AND CHRIST AND ALSO IS RECOGNITION OF THE SCRIPTURES BEING THE WORD OF GOD ??
terraricca,If I did not share what was in my heart with you, that would show that I didn't care for you. If I am wrong then I do not realize it. I take my words that I share on here seriously and I am sincere. I am just a person and for now we can all only see in part. I have never told you just to accept my understanding but I have encouraged you to test it. I do have responsibility to what I put down here and you have responsibility to test everything and take it to the Lord. We both have a responsibility to be able to have a defense for what we believe. We need to extend grace to each other in case we were wrong in any way. I do believe that the Lord is patient with those who seek Him.
Kathi
Hi All
Jesus said that “Men should honour him “even as” they honour the Father”. John 5:23
To make the claim that men should honour him “EVEN AS” they honour God would be blasphemous to the Hebrew!
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him (Jesus) shall not be ashamed. Rom 9:33
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2010,16:01) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 21 2010,07:41) hi all please do not stumble on this,as true christians we only have to worship the father,no one else not even Christ.
Hi terra,So simple, yet so true!
peace and love
mike
I think that herein lies the crux of the problem. When we search scriptures to see what we HAVE to do, we are looking for religion and not relationship. When we give worship or praise out of the depth of our heart and spirit, that is what pleases God.It doesn't matter what is or what isn't an act of worship if it is just something on our to do list. I believe that is vanity.
Who we worship will come from who/what our God/god is. If our God is a Godhead of the Father and the Son, then they are our focus. If just the Father, than the Father is our focus.
Mike, we could wrestle with words like mongenes or proskyneo or theos and pick and choose a definition that suits our understanding but that doesn't mean that we have the heart of the Father on the matter. We need to ask Him if what we are doing is ok. He told me that it was ok to include Jesus in my worship of Him. He even reminded me of the song “Crown Him with Many Crowns” when I was talking to Him about the issue. My spirit does not bear witness to the thought that I can not sing or say the words to “Crown Him with Many Crowns.” Maybe it is a matter of faith. I have faith that the Son is my God and His Father is my Most High God. I agree with Peter:
2 Peter 1:1-2
2 PETER Growth in Christian Virtue 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
NASUKathi
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2010,07:29) Mike No! I don't agree. For the word “proskyneō” was a word used by the Jews for worship to the Father!
Jesus himself used the word “proskyneō” in describing “True Worship” to the Father in John chapter 4!
The Apostles that were under the direction of the Holy Spirit penned examples where they worshipped Jesus using the word “proskyneō”.
Remember John and the Apostles understood what Jesus words in John 4:24 meant when they wrote the examples of Jesus being worshipped.
Yet none of the Apostles writings of Jesus being worshipped gives any indication that Jesus corrected those that worshipped him!
None of the Apostles gives us any other example where the word “proskyneō” was directed to anyone else but the Father and Jesus.
You say …
The only example I can give is the inferred one that you also, as an intelligent person should arrive at:You give me your inference, and I stand on the facts!
The burden of proof is on you my friend!
Blessings WJ
Hi Wj,I'll show you the same TWO definitions for worship in the Greek language:
Quote worship
v worship [ˈwəːʃip]1 to pay great honour to; to worship God. (λατρεύω, τιμώ)
2 to love or admire very greatly: She worships her older brother. (λατρεύω, θαυμάζω πάρα πολύ)
Can you see the same Greek word being used for two different definitions? Why would Jesus correct anyone for “loving and admiring him very greatly”? (2. above)
Stand on this fact Wj: the blind man worshipped Jesus in front of Pharisees and they said nothing about it being wrong. So please don't avoid the question again – Why didn't the Pharisee say or do something?
And WHY is the burden of proof ALWAYS on the Arians? No matter though; everything you hit me with, I am confident I can rebuke through Scripture with the help of God's Spirit.
So, instead of skipping around the issue, let's get down to it.
I've answered EVERY question you've asked – your turn.1. Did anyone who worshipped Jesus in the Bible think he was God Almighty?
2. Why did the Pharisees not react adversely to the blind man worshipping Jesus?
Bam! Burden of proof back on you. Can you deal with it?
peace and love
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2010,08:13) Hi All Jesus said that “Men should honour him “even as” they honour the Father”. John 5:23
To make the claim that men should honour him “EVEN AS” they honour God would be blasphemous to the Hebrew!
Hi Wj,“Animals have brains even as humans do.” “even as” does not mean identical. And honor does not mean worship. If it did, God told us to “worship your mother and father”.
peace and love
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Feb. 21 2010,08:30) 2 Peter 1:1-2
2 PETER Growth in Christian Virtue 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
Hi Kathi,I had hoped for a different reply – like maybe a light bulb turning on. Unfortunately, if we don't “wrestle with words”, how can we truly understand what is required of us by God.
If we think every mention of theos is of Jehovah, then we better start worshipping Satan, too.
If we think “honor” means “worship”, then we better worship our folks.
Peter's quote is good, but I like Jesus' better, “This means eternal life: their taking in knowledge of you, the ONLY true God, and of Jesus Christ, whom you've sent.”
Kathi, do you pray to Jesus?
peace and love,
mikeLU,
From what you seem to be saying … there seems to be no point in discussion, debate nor imparting knowledge because you have your interpretation, I have mine and everyone else has theirs and noone knows the true God so noone can or should try to change anyone elses mind.
Can I ask then? What are you doing in this forum?
Where did you first learn about God and Jesus and have you ever changed your ideas of who they are since that first learning?If 'yes' then Why, and Why?
Ok ya'll,
This tells a little about where I came from if you are interested. I wrote this in another thread almost a year ago.Quote Posted: Mar. 08 2008,07:43
Hello all,
I have posted this in pre-existence but I think that it also belongs here:I grew up as a trinitarian and defended the doctrine when challenged. Then one day I was challenged with the verse Col 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
NASUI asked God to show me what that term meant “firstborn of all creation.” I surrendered my trinitarian claims to whatever God would show me and it was like I started to read the Bible all new with a different perspective. Well, after about a month of searching scripture and looking for my answer I heard a voice speak in my left ear. Just before I heard that voice, I was reviewing with my son what happened on each day of creation because I was homeschooling him and the kindergarten curriculum was centered around the seven days of creation. I had just asked my son this question, “What happened on day one?” My son responded by saying “God said let there be light” and that is when the voice spoke to me and said “You are the light of the world”.
Now remember that I was meditating on what the “firstborn of all creation” meant for the past month and fervently, and excitedly reading scripture with a whole new perspective. When I asked my son that question I was totally focused on his schooling. I know that voice was not from me without a doubt. Anyway, when I heard the voice say that I immediately thought of Jesus being the Light of the World and that “Let there be light” was God's birthing of His Son by His word as the begotten God. So, I knew that I had to test that and I think about it everyday since. I believe that the firstborn of all creation refers to the light of day one as the begotten God, the Radiant Son of God.
Here are some verses about Jesus being the Light:
John 1:1-10
2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 The Witness John
There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
NASURev 21:22-24
23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
NASUJohn 8:12
Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, ” I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
NASUSo, I remain amazed at the simplicity of all of this.
For God's glory, K
So yes, JustAskin, I have changed my mind in the past and in a life changing way. God's spirit did it and it was not from myself.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2010,16:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 21 2010,08:30) 2 Peter 1:1-2
2 PETER Growth in Christian Virtue 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
Hi Kathi,I had hoped for a different reply – like maybe a light bulb turning on. Unfortunately, if we don't “wrestle with words”, how can we truly understand what is required of us by God.
If we think every mention of theos is of Jehovah, then we better start worshipping Satan, too.
If we think “honor” means “worship”, then we better worship our folks.
Peter's quote is good, but I like Jesus' better, “This means eternal life: their taking in knowledge of you, the ONLY true God, and of Jesus Christ, whom you've sent.”
Kathi, do you pray to Jesus?
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
My point is that wrestling with words does not in and of itself bring truth. I think that we already knew that the word for worship had different meanings. So, sorry, no light bulb.You asked if I pray to Jesus. Well, I talk to Him, I have a relationship with Him. Is it prayer if I am talking to Him? When I ask for things, I pray in Jesus' name to the Father. Sometimes I have just said “Help me Lord” and instantly I am helped and protected. Could I have said that to the Son and it be effective. Yes, I believe that it could and was. When I pray before I eat a meal, I pray to the Father, through the Son. So, I talk to them both. They both abide within me so I think they both know all about what I say and do.
John 14:23
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
NASUKathi
So, then Kathi, if you have been changed through the Holy Spirit to this degree (and congratulations for that) then can you go further, to refinement?
Call on Jesus forthe Holy Spirit in all sincerity and he will send it to you.
You will then discern whom in this forum also has Holy Spirited Truth for your developing knowledge of God and His Christ.
JustAskin,
Congratulations you say?? Well, I didn't do anything special. I just laid down the doctrine so the Father could get through to me.
I was just thinking tonight as I was staring off into the stars, that the Father had His Son share in the act of creation, why wouldn't He let Him share in His worship too? The Father has given the Son all things, why not the right to receive worship as one of the all things?
Oh and btw, I'm sure that the Holy Spirit has much to teach me and I pray that I will receive that teaching with a humble heart.
Kathi
LU
i will look at this in the very simple way;as just a fisherman from Jordan would look at it,
all the apostles were thought by Jesus and believe him;the were all Jews ,so they all worship one God in a oneness,nowhere is it said otherwise.Christ is the messiah,of God we do not deny none of those things.
yet,some of us find a way to challenge this,based on their view and optics,so let see if we looking for truth or for some thing we wish to be out of to much zeal;
so Jesus teaches to worship only the father,not him,is entire ministry does not change that view,
always worship the father,even at the end of his revelation to John Jesus did not change that.
the entire old testament does the same.
Christ in John;Jn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”Jesus says to live by the truth so that we come in the light,so it would be true if someone does not live in the truth ,he will not have the light of God,
so we know God the father the oneness does not change he remain the same for ever.
why is it then that some try to change what God as establish century's earlier and called void,to allow there own views? is this not to place you above God ?are those who practice that, not making God there slave instead of them to him??
sure there are some grey into the scriptures this is true ,the devil works,but by falling in for those questionable verses only a few,would you put in doutb what is for sure and clearly well explain??
we must now,use our judgement so to believe God foundation and Christ foundation to be true or not.
if we believe the bible to be the word of God ,then is this so difficult to answer the question of who we have to worship ??if it is Gods word you fallow so serve God and only worship God ,
if you do not believe that the bible is the word of God and only a compillation of lost fragments of documents,then you do not even have a god.
the truth is of God not of men,anything were there is dought is from men not from God.
Hi LU,
We are not like the philosophers who wonder about this and that and devise their own religion.
We should know the Lord Jesus and his God.Kathi,
Even in Heaven, via the book of Revelation, John alludes to worship the angel who brought the testimony of Christ.The angel tells John:'See you do not do that for I am you fellow servant. WORSHIP GOD!'
Why does the angel, who is bringing the testimony of Christ Jesus, not say '…Worship God and Christ!'?
God, Himself says:'…Let all the angels of God WORSHIP [Jesus Christ]'(Hebrews 1:6)'
Why does God only state that the angels of God should worship Christ.
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