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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2010,10:35) CA The Church did not write the scriptures!
The scriptures were written “to the Church” by inspiration of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles.
I am a member of the many membered body of Christ, the visible church which is made up of every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who has been born again by the Spirit and baptised into that body by drinking of that one Spirit!
Therefore the scriptures are written to me and every other memeber of that body!
Blessings WJ
Excuse me, NO. The Church DID write the Scriptures.Which came first, the Church or the NT? I'll give you a hint: the Church.
It was the apostles of the Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit who were used to pen Scripture IN the Church and TO the Church.
The Church has and can exist apart from Sacred Scripture. Scripture is NOT above the Church. It did not come first.
Just as man is above woman since he was first formed, so the Church is above and over NT Scripture since the Church was first formed.
Jesus only has ONE Body. Are you SURE you are in it?
CA
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2010,18:45) CA-WJ Satan likes corruption ,likes deceiving, like misery,like people who worship false gods,likes lies,
history of the catholic church can not be denied it is written in blood,
for century's ,corruption from the top down to smallest,you have put your faith in that organization
that s your freewill rights, your reward will follow.
guilty by association. the bible says to get out.
TDid I not tell you I am not a Catholic?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2010,10:37) Hi all, We got off Thomas for a minute to discuss Catholics? Ok, I have a couple of questions for CA. After the council at Nicea, when Constantine bulldozed Athanasius' creed through, did you know that later councils revoked that creed and changed it to state that the Son is, “…of like substance” with the Father, and “we call the Son like the Father, as the Holy Scriptures call him and teach.”?
The Church later went back to the Nicene Creed, but even then it took many generations before it became infallible dogma.
My point is that just because now it is called infallible by Catholics doesn't mean it is right. And for you to brag that your church never changes infallible dogma means that every member has to accept it the way you teach it, period. And the decisions of what is infallible dogma comes down to a few higher-ups at that particular time.
And speaking of higher-ups, you commented that bishops, deacons, etc. was the way Jesus set up the Church? The Word of God begs to differ.
No YOU beg to differ.It is not the “Word of God” you refer to, but your own abhorrant interpretation of Sacred Scripture.
Go read Luke 10:16 if you wish to dwell upon the Sacred Scriptures:
“He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.”
This was not given to Scripture, but to the apostles and by extension to their successors, the bishops of the universal church through the laying on of hands.
So with this understanding, you should understand that just because understanding develops, doesn't mean that it contradicts. No council has contradicted the other in infallible dogma.
I challenge you to find where it has.
If you can't, I invite you to humble yourself, repent, and become Catholic.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 16 2010,10:48) WJ sorry you have the believes of her sister,whats the difference??
There is some difference though, only the Catholic Church has the Mass. Also Maria worship when we belonged. i have not talked to any Catholic for awhile and two years ago they still did. W.J. does believe in the trinity, but not any other abomination to God. I know what you are saying about the trinity doctrine, maybe just maybe one day soon all will understand. I believe Christ is coming sooner then many believe. I at least hope so.
Peace and Love IreneCA
(If you can't, I invite you to humble yourself, repent, and become Catholic)
you invite people to joint a cursed organization.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) WorshippingJesus,Feb. wrote:CA
The Church did not write the scriptures!
The scriptures were written “to the Church” by inspiration of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles.
I am a member of the many membered body of Christ, the visible church which is made up of every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who has been born again by the Spirit and baptised into that body by drinking of that one Spirit!
Therefore the scriptures are written to me and every other memeber of that body!
Blessings WJ
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) Excuse me, NO. The Church DID write the Scriptures.
Excuse me, NO. The NT books were written by individuals who were members of the Body of Christ the Church!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) Which came first, the Church or the NT? I'll give you a hint: the Church.
No, The Apostles who followed Jesus preceeded the Church who penned the scriptures to the Church!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) [It was the apostles of the Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit who were used to pen Scripture IN the Church and TO the Church.
Agreed!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) [The Church has and can exist apart from Sacred Scripture. Scripture is NOT above the Church. It did not come first.
Never said it did! I said the Apostles were before the scriptures and the Church!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) [Just as man is above woman since he was first formed, so the Church is above and over NT Scripture since the Church was first formed.
Where is the scripture that the Church has more authority than the inspired scriptures? Does the Church have authority over the Holy Spirit?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) Jesus only has ONE Body. Are you SURE you are in it?
Absolutely. I have been saved for 35 years and know in whom I have believed!Why do you ask, do you believe that only those who are part of your organization the CC can be saved?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2010,10:41) CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,10:21]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,09:09]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,08:17]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,07:57]
JustAskin,Feb. wrote:CA
You are missing my point!
Was Athanasius deposed or not?
Was it not after the council when the doctrine of the Trinity was declared “Infallable” by the so-called “Infallable” Pope (correction, Ecumenical Church Council) ?
If so then how did he get deposed?
Blessings WJ
Thank you for asking.Four Eastern councils condemned Athanasius on trumped-up charges. He appealed to the bishop of Rome, who had been notified of the conciliar action taken against Athanasius. Julius wrote to the Eastern bishops who had deposed Athanasius. He demanded to know why they had presumed to make a judgment about the bishop of Alexandria without consulting the pope.
In his letter Pope Julius asked the Eastern bishops, “Are you ignorant that this is customary, for word to be written to us first, and then for a just sentence to be passed from this place? If, then, any suspicion rested upon the bishop there, notice thereof ought to have been sent to the Church of this place [Rome]; whereas, after neglecting to inform us, and proceeding on their own authority as they pleased, now they desire to obtain our concurrence in their decisions. . . . Not so have the directions of the Fathers prescribed. This is another form of procedure, a novel practice. . . . What we have received from the blessed apostle Peter, that I signify to you.”
Athanasius tells us that Julius summoned him and his accusers to Rome. A synod led by the Pope exonerated Athanasius on all counts. Several fifth-century Eastern historians commented on the Pope’s action. Theodoret wrote, “Pope Julius, adhering to the law of the Church, both commanded them to repair to Rome and summoned Athanasius to trial.” Note the phrase “adhering to the law of the Church.” Universal papal jurisdiction is “the law of the Church.”
The historian Socrates reported that Julius did not send representatives to either of two heretical councils that condemned Athanasius; he noted that “the ecclesiastical canon expressly commands that the churches shall not make ordinances contrary to the judgment of the bishop of Rome.” Sozomen recounts the same episode and refers to the canon in question in terms almost identical with those of Socrates. Thus we have clear witness to the fact that in the Nicene period Rome claimed to have a divinely constituted authority over both West and East.
Only the heretical bishops challenged Julius’s authority. They argued that the Council of Tyre’s condemnation of Athanasius in 335 was not subject to appeal to the Pope because the emperor convened the council. The heretical bishops insisted that decisions of a council in the East simply should be accepted by the West. They, in turn, would reciprocate with regard to Western conciliar rulings.
The Arian bishops’ strategy was to convert the emperor to their heresy and persuade him to call councils to carry out their attack on orthodoxy. Heretical bishops and the emperor sought to replace the supreme authority of the See of Peter with that of the state. Had they succeeded, they would have laid the groundwork for the eventual emergence of independent national churches, loosely federated. This is the institutional form that developed in the East after those churches broke with Rome. It is the institutional form of Eastern Orthodoxy today.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2010,18:48) WJ sorry you have the believes of her sister,whats the difference??
TLook in the mirror. Do you believe in Jesus death, burial and resurrection and the return of Christ?
So do the Catholics, so that must mean you are one to, right?
WJ
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 16 2010,10:43) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 16 2010,10:22) Elizabeth,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,09:44]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18). Membership is not optional-Christ commands that you join his visible body.”
You mean you don't pray to Maria any more? Wow I am going to die, i sure hope so. i am 71 and I do know I will. But I am going into the grave until Jesus our Savior returns, Hell is a hole in the ground, get educated. Purgatory again is not in my Picture. True faith, mmmmmmmmmmmm
He already has given me grace and I live by it.
Ephesians 2:8-9 read it and learn….I belong to the Spiritual Church of God and not any organization that teaches false doctrine like the Catholic Church does. Read up on it in the Trinity tread. I am not wasting any more time then I have to with you. There is no profit in it. I know unless God calls you out of that Church you will not understand anything.
Good luck to you and yours, Irene
Well, I wish I could drag you to heaven but God has not so ordained. I can only compel you with words for a short time.You've been doing a lot of “reading up”. I hope you do more “praying up” than you do reading.
Protestants emphasize endless reading.
Catholics emphasize endless praying.
Pray that we be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 16 2010,10:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2010,10:37) Hi all, We got off Thomas for a minute to discuss Catholics? Ok, I have a couple of questions for CA. After the council at Nicea, when Constantine bulldozed Athanasius' creed through, did you know that later councils revoked that creed and changed it to state that the Son is, “…of like substance” with the Father, and “we call the Son like the Father, as the Holy Scriptures call him and teach.”?
The Church later went back to the Nicene Creed, but even then it took many generations before it became infallible dogma.
My point is that just because now it is called infallible by Catholics doesn't mean it is right. And for you to brag that your church never changes infallible dogma means that every member has to accept it the way you teach it, period. And the decisions of what is infallible dogma comes down to a few higher-ups at that particular time.
And speaking of higher-ups, you commented that bishops, deacons, etc. was the way Jesus set up the Church? The Word of God begs to differ.
No YOU beg to differ.It is not the “Word of God” you refer to, but your own abhorrant interpretation of Sacred Scripture.
Go read Luke 10:16 if you wish to dwell upon the Sacred Scriptures:
“He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.”
This was not given to Scripture, but to the apostles and by extension to their successors, the bishops of the universal church through the laying on of hands.
So with this understanding, you should understand that just because understanding develops, doesn't mean that it contradicts. No council has contradicted the other in infallible dogma.
I challenge you to find where it has.
If you can't, I invite you to humble yourself, repent, and become Catholic.
[/QUOTE]
What did Jesus say about the order of the church? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was along the lines of “you are all brothers in the faith, not one of you is higher than the other, in fact you should try to be the least so you can be more in my Father's Kingdom” Sound familiar?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2010,10:41) CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,10:21]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,09:09]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,08:17]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,07:57]
JustAskin,Feb. wrote:CA
You are missing my point!
Was Athanasius deposed or not?
Was it not after the council when the doctrine of the Trinity was declared “Infallable” by the so-called “Infallable” Pope (correction, Ecumenical Church Council) ?
If so then how did he get deposed?
Blessings WJ
Thank you for asking.Four Eastern councils condemned Athanasius on trumped-up charges. He appealed to the bishop of Rome, who had been notified of the conciliar action taken against Athanasius. Julius wrote to the Eastern bishops who had deposed Athanasius. He demanded to know why they had presumed to make a judgment about the bishop of Alexandria without consulting the pope.
In his letter Pope Julius asked the Eastern bishops, “Are you ignorant that this is customary, for word to be written to us first, and then for a just sentence to be passed from this place? If, then, any suspicion rested upon the bishop there, notice thereof ought to have been sent to the Church of this place [Rome]; whereas, after neglecting to inform us, and proceeding on their own authority as they pleased, now they desire to obtain our concurrence in their decisions. . . . Not so have the directions of the Fathers prescribed. This is another form of procedure, a novel practice. . . . What we have received from the blessed apostle Peter, that I signify to you.”
Athanasius tells us that Julius summoned him and his accusers to Rome. A synod led by the Pope exonerated Athanasius on all counts. Several fifth-century Eastern historians commented on the Pope’s action. Theodoret wrote, “Pope Julius, adhering to the law of the Church, both commanded them to repair to Rome and summoned Athanasius to trial.” Note the phrase “adhering to the law of the Church.” Universal papal jurisdiction is “the law of the Church.”
The historian Socrates reported that Julius did not send representatives to either of two heretical councils that condemned Athanasius; he noted that “the ecclesiastical canon expressly commands that the churches shall not make ordinances contrary to the judgment of the bishop of Rome.” Sozomen recounts the same episode and refers to the canon in question in terms almost identical with those of Socrates. Thus we have clear witness to the fact that in the Nicene period Rome claimed to have a divinely constituted authority over both West and East.
Only the heretical bishops challenged Julius’s authority. They argued that the Council of Tyre’s condemnation of Athanasius in 335 was not subject to appeal to the Pope because the emperor convened the council. The heretical bishops insisted that decisions of a council in the East simply should be accepted by the West. They, in turn, would reciprocate with regard to Western conciliar rulings.
The Arian bishops’ strategy was to convert the emperor to their heresy and persuade him to call councils to carry out their attack on orthodoxy. Heretical bishops and the emperor sought to replace the supreme authority of the See of Peter with that of the state. Had they succeeded, they would have laid the groundwork for the eventual emergence of independent national churches, loosely federated. This is the institutional form that developed in the East after those churches broke with Rome. It is the institutional form of Eastern Orthodoxy today.
CAThank you! You have made my point! Though there were set in place “Infallable” traditions or doctrines there were still divisions in the ranks of the Catholic Churches and its leaders.
Now you want to convince us that the reason why the Protestants cannot agree on everything is because they do not hold to “Infallable” doctrines and traditions held by the Catholics.
Can't you see how circular your argument is?
Blessings WJ
Ca,
The fact that Catholics (and much of organized religion) think that somehow the priest, bishops, deacons, pastors, or whatever are closer to God than the poor man sitting in the pew is ridiculous to me. Unless, maybe if they are a Levite descendant of Aaron.
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 16 2010,10:08) TT,
Your comments are as low to the ground as the one who you call your father.I see you are still dogging it behind WJ's heals.
There is still a chance for you if you bow down and worship the real God, God Almighty, Jehovah.
Can you do that, TT?
JA,Why don't we just go to the debates forum and have a one on one discussion eh? You may pick the subject. It doesn't matter. I don't think you will because you know that in a forum such as that there will be rules and that your accusations just won't cut it. You know that in a one on one exchange with me people will be expecting you to meet challenges and give solid and coherent arguments.
Please do not address me again until you are sincere and can present biblical arguments.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2010,10:57) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) WorshippingJesus,Feb. wrote:CA
The Church did not write the scriptures!
The scriptures were written “to the Church” by inspiration of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles.
I am a member of the many membered body of Christ, the visible church which is made up of every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who has been born again by the Spirit and baptised into that body by drinking of that one Spirit!
Therefore the scriptures are written to me and every other memeber of that body!
Blessings WJ
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) Excuse me, NO. The Church DID write the Scriptures.
Excuse me, NO. The NT books were written by individuals who were members of the Body of Christ the Church!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) Which came first, the Church or the NT? I'll give you a hint: the Church.
No, The Apostles who followed Jesus preceeded the Church who penned the scriptures to the Church!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) [It was the apostles of the Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit who were used to pen Scripture IN the Church and TO the Church.
Agreed!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) [The Church has and can exist apart from Sacred Scripture. Scripture is NOT above the Church. It did not come first.
Never said it did! I said the Apostles were before the scriptures and the Church!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) [Just as man is above woman since he was first formed, so the Church is above and over NT Scripture since the Church was first formed.
Where is the scripture that the Church has more authority than the inspired scriptures? Does the Church have authority over the Holy Spirit?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 15 2010,18:46) Jesus only has ONE Body. Are you SURE you are in it?
Absolutely. I have been saved for 35 years and know in whom I have believed!Why do you ask, do you believe that only those who are part of your organization the CC can be saved?
WJ
“Where is the scripture that the Church has more authority than the inspired scriptures? Does the Church have authority over the Holy Spirit?”I think we need to move to the Sola Scriptura thread and hash it out there….
The Holy Spirit is God and existed before both the Scriptures and the Church. Nice try. The Scriptures are not the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures were given by His inspiration.
“No, The Apostles who followed Jesus preceeded the Church who penned the scriptures to the Church!”
This is new and strange doctrine. The apostles were a part of the Church and members of it.
Do you claim that the apostles were indeed NOT part of the Church, but separate and apart from it?
?
What is the trinity all 3in1 The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is a person and God. You cannot find the trinity any where in the Bible. It was after three century of brutal and bloody persecution that Constantine ordered an edit to permit the Christians to openly practise their religion. It was called the Roman Universal Church at first. Out of that came the Roman Catholic Church. The first Christians did not believe in the trinity. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who was born to pagan Parents in 155 A.D. first came up with it. It is said that the trinity is his best achievement to Christianity. And since then all have been deceived.
Our Heavenly Father is above all the Son is not equal to Him.
Ephesians 4:6..one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all, and in us all.
1 Corinth. 8:4 “And that there is none other God but one.”
Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God, there is none else beside Him.”
Deut. 6:4 :Hear O Israel, THE LORD our God is one LORD.”Notice that LORD is in capital letters. That means it is Jehovah God.
And by Jesus own words in
John 14:28……for My Father is greater then I.”There is also a Scripture that tells us if you believe in a man made doctrine you worship in vain,
Math. 15:9 “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for the doctrine the commandment of men.”
Rev. 18:4 tells us to come out of her my people…. Some will say that is not meant for us, but I do.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2010,11:07) CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,10:41]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,10:21]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,09:09]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,08:17]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 16 2010,07:57]
JustAskin,Feb. wrote:Thank you! You have made my point! Though there were set in place “Infallable” traditions or doctrines there were still divisions in the ranks of the Catholic Churches and its leaders.
Now you want to convince us that the reason why the Protestants cannot agree on everything is because they do not hold to “Infallable” doctrines and traditions held by the Catholics.
Can't you see how circular your argument is?
Blessings WJ
OK, trying to help you see.You said:
“Though there were set in place “Infallable” traditions or doctrines there were still divisions in the ranks of the Catholic Churches and its leaders.”
And your point is? The “leaders” of the Church have free will. But they are POWERLESS to change infallable church dogma. Do you see that?
The prots are POWERFUL to change any doctrine they like.
Do you see that?
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 16 2010,10:45) CA-WJ Satan likes corruption ,likes deceiving, like misery,like people who worship false gods,likes lies,
history of the catholic church can not be denied it is written in blood,
for century's ,corruption from the top down to smallest,you have put your faith in that organization
that s your freewill rights, your reward will follow.
guilty by association. the bible says to get out.
t,Where do you get you “guilt by association” doctrine?
thinker
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 16 2010,11:18) What is the trinity all 3in1 The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is a person and God. You cannot find the trinity any where in the Bible. It was after three century of brutal and bloody persecution that Constantine ordered an edit to permit the Christians to openly practise their religion. It was called the Roman Universal Church at first. Out of that came the Roman Catholic Church. The first Christians did not believe in the trinity. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who was born to pagan Parents in 155 A.D. first came up with it. It is said that the trinity is his best achievement to Christianity. And since then all have been deceived. Our Heavenly Father is above all the Son is not equal to Him.
Ephesians 4:6..one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all, and in us all.
1 Corinth. 8:4 “And that there is none other God but one.”
Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God, there is none else beside Him.”
Deut. 6:4 :Hear O Israel, THE LORD our God is one LORD.”Notice that LORD is in capital letters. That means it is Jehovah God.
And by Jesus own words in
John 14:28……for My Father is greater then I.”There is also a Scripture that tells us if you believe in a man made doctrine you worship in vain,
Math. 15:9 “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for the doctrine the commandment of men.”
Rev. 18:4 tells us to come out of her my people…. Some will say that is not meant for us, but I do.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,You can try and bury the conviction you feel by voluminous typing. You are just letting me know that my words are having an effect on you.
Please stop fighting against God.
He still loves you and wants to bring you back to the knowledge of the truth.
He takes NO PLEASURE in the destruction of the wicked.
Please. Please. Please.
Repent.
Before it is too late.
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