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Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 06 2010,18:22) LU, Just like Worship, please can you give me a definition of God.
So far noone except myself has given a definition of Worship but it is used extensively by debaters here as if they have one. An dby this means everyone has their own def. Meaning that they are all right by their own understanding.
What is required is ONE definition – then we can agree or disagree on teh scriptures from that.
Same then of God.
To me God is ONE from Everlsting, ALMIGHTY, OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT, unseen by man, the Grand designer from whom the grand plan for mankind, the universe and all other creations came, the one who is over ALL THINGS – AT ALL TIMES and from whom all Spirit and Life eminates, unchanging, whose thoughts are as an act and who alone is HOLY, who is Spirit with a Spirit (Holy Spirit).
By this quick off the cuff definition we see that there can only be ONE.
Therefore any other thing cannot be God or “a God” – no matter from what source it comes.
Jesus changed to a WHOLLY Man – therefore he cannot have been God – A God cannot change.
Jesus has a body and a Spirit on earth but IS ONLY Spirit in heaven.Jesus is not OMNIPOTENT
Jesus is not OMNISCIENT
(All Spirits are OMNIPRESENT…)Jesus' thoughts are an act only by means of the Holy Spirit of God.
LU, It is wise to be cautious but over cautiousness leads to indecision and indecision leads to procrastination and procrastination leads to lack of faith and lack of faith leads to death.
JustAskin,I thought that I answered you about what worship was. Worship, imo, is the adoration one gives to something/someone that is deity to them. The Godhead, in my understanding, is the Father as God and the Son as the Lord. I give worship to the Godhead and to the members within it.
Now, regarding your definition of God…I would apply that definition to the “Most High God” and sometimes to “God” (the Father) depending on the context. In certain contexts I would define “God” as Godhead which I feel, includes more than 1 member-it includes the Father and the Son. Then again in other contexts, I would define the word “god” as either someone or some group given a sense of temporary authority by God Himself or by people with a lack of understanding towards an idol.
Kathi
Quote (glad tidings @ Feb. 06 2010,15:34) Hi Kathi, May I exhort you to consider the following truths from the scriptures.
1. God cannot die (the scriptures say that He is immortal), but Jesus was dead three days and three nights.
2. God has foreknowledge; Jesus only knew things (future) to the extent that His Father revealed to him. Jesus doesn't know the time of his return; But God definitely knows the answer to this question.
3. Speaking of gods, Jesus has a god, and he said so when he told Mary, “I ascend to my Father, and your Father; to My God and your God.” – John 20:17.
4. God cannot be tempted with sin; but Jesus was “tempted in all points, yet without sin” James 1:13.
5. Jesus made an unequivocal claim that his Father is greater than him (if he's part of a three-in-one trinity personage [whatever the Nicene Creed is alluding to; it's always been really confusing to me] then all parts have to be equal….bear in mind, the scriptures state that Jesus, even today in his exalted state in the heavenlies, is still a man, “for there is one God, and one mediator between God and men; the MAN, Christ Jesus.” Another thing that follows this is the verse: “God is not a man, that He should lie; neither a son of man, that He should repent.” – Numbers 23:19
6. Jesus is never once called, “God, the Son”, nor does he ever call himself God. Evidently, Jesus didn't think he was God; nor did demon spirits, because they always addressed him as “Son of the Highest”, “Son of God”, etc.
I hope this is helpful for you.
Blessings,\
\Patrick
Hi Glad Tidings,
Thank you for your comments. My answers are as follows:
You ask:Quote 1. God cannot die (the scriptures say that He is immortal), but Jesus was dead three days and three nights. I believe that the Most High God cannot die. His Son is not the Most High God, imo. I think that it is possible that the Son gave up His immortality so that He could die if He indeed had immortality in the first place. It is also possible that He never possessed immortality, like the angels. The angels can't possess immortality because the Bible says that God alone possesses immortality, yet they don't seem to die-the good angels anyway. I don't know if the bad angels get destroyed or just tormented for eternity…not sure on that, but that is besides the point.
Quote 2. God has foreknowledge; Jesus only knew things (future) to the extent that His Father revealed to him. Jesus doesn't know the time of his return; But God definitely knows the answer to this question. I would say that the Most High God has foreknowledge. Again, I do not see the Son of God as the Most High God.
Quote 3. Speaking of gods, Jesus has a god, and he said so when he told Mary, “I ascend to my Father, and your Father; to My God and your God.” – John 20:17. I certainly understand why the Son of God would have a God-His very own Father. After all, the Son knows that He came from His Father and in His case, His Father was the only being around. His source is certainly greater than He is and would naturally be His God.
Quote 4. God cannot be tempted with sin; but Jesus was “tempted in all points, yet without sin” James 1:13.
The Most High God cannot be tempted with sin…once again, I do not see the Son of God as the Most High God.
Quote 5. Jesus made an unequivocal claim that his Father is greater than him (if he's part of a three-in-one trinity personage [whatever the Nicene Creed is alluding to; it's always been really confusing to me] then all parts have to be equal….bear in mind, the scriptures state that Jesus, even today in his exalted state in the heavenlies, is still a man, “for there is one God, and one mediator between God and men; the MAN, Christ Jesus.” Another thing that follows this is the verse: “God is not a man, that He should lie; neither a son of man, that He should repent.” – Numbers 23:19 I would agree that the Father is greater than the Son and I do not agree with the idea of a three-in-one trinity personage. That confused me too. I would agree with a Godhead made up of One God-the Father, and One Lord-the Son as a unity, united by the nature and spirit of the Father. Keep in mind that I believe the Holy Spirit to be as much a part of the Father as His own mind.
Quote 6. Jesus is never once called, “God, the Son”, nor does he ever call himself God. Evidently, Jesus didn't think he was God; nor did demon spirits, because they always addressed him as “Son of the Highest”, “Son of God”, etc. Jesus is called “God” however by disciples and by His God. He doesn't call himself God because He doesn't exalt Himself.
So, Patrick, I hope you can understand what I have shared. I would be interested in how you define “God” and then how you define the “Most High God.” The very idea of a Most High God lends itself to a God/gods in a lesser position.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll @ Feb. 06 2010,15:45) Hi Kathi, I very much enjoy your approach to “debating” the deity of Jesus. You are not condescending or rude or arrogant.
First, that passage in Proverbs talks not only of wisdom, but of understanding and prudence. If you are going to physically embody wisdom in Christ, who embodies understanding? And who embodies prudence, who is said to dwell together with wisdom?
Second, if we can believe that the Proverb is talking about Jesus, why didn't you start at verse 22, which states, “Jehovah brought me forth as the first of his works…”? Because when you read the whole thing in context, it becomes clear that verse 23 is actually saying that God appointed or established him from eternity, not that he was from eternity. In other words, God decided from eternity that at some point he would create wisdom/Jesus.
As far as the Son not being created, what about Colossians 1:15, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF all CREATION.”? It does say “of creation”, right? Besides, it also says the only true God is invisible, Jesus is not.
And as far as your beliefs about the God-Head, consider John 13:16, where Jesus is praying to his God, Jehovah, “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” First, it has Jesus praying to his God, Jehovah. And second, it is obvious from his statement that Jehovah is the ONLY TRUE GOD, and that Jesus is a separate individual who is NOT THE ONLY TRUE GOD, but someone praying to the only true God.
Jesus doesn't say, “that they may know US, THE ONLY TRUE GOD”. But what he does say is the key for me to the whole God-Head debate: THIS MEANS ETERNAL LIFE! Getting to know the only true God, Jehovah, and understanding that Jesus is not Him, rather someone sent by Him to do the will of Him.
Hi Mike,You write:
Quote I very much enjoy your approach to “debating” the deity of Jesus. You are not condescending or rude or arrogant. Thanks! It is quite obvious to me that being condescending or rude or arrogant is a big turn off because it doesn't represent the fruits of the Spirit at all. It is also very ineffective to me when I see that attitude. Perhaps raising my 5 kids has helped me with my listening and debate skills. My kids are 13, 17, 19, 20 and 23. I have had my views challenged by 5 teenagers during the last 10 years
If you have teens or had teens you probably know what I am talking about. A parent constantly has to defend their position with a teen.Quote First, that passage in Proverbs talks not only of wisdom, but of understanding and prudence. If you are going to physically embody wisdom in Christ, who embodies understanding? And who embodies prudence, who is said to dwell together with wisdom? Well, I think that the passage in Proverbs starts talking about wisdom and prudence but later in the chapter, I believe that it speaks of the Son of God in a way that is understated. In other words, it has a somewhat hidden meaning. I asked the Lord once what the term “Firstborn of all creation” meant and His answer to me intertwines with this passage in Proverbs quite interestingly. PM me if you want to know what was revealed to me.
Quote Second, if we can believe that the Proverb is talking about Jesus, why didn't you start at verse 22, which states, “Jehovah brought me forth as the first of his works…”? Because when you read the whole thing in context, it becomes clear that verse 23 is actually saying that God appointed or established him from eternity, not that he was from eternity. In other words, God decided from eternity that at some point he would create wisdom/Jesus. I didn't point out v.22 for no reason. I was focusing on showing you where “from everlasting” is found. I do agree that the Most High God brought forth the Son and that the Son did not always exist. As I have said, I do not think that the Son was created but begotten. Also, I do not think that God was ever without wisdom and that is another reason that I think the end of this chapter is not talking about wisdom, literally.
Quote As far as the Son not being created, what about Colossians 1:15, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF all CREATION.”? It does say “of creation”, right? Besides, it also says the only true God is invisible, Jesus is not. The term “firstborn” does not equal “first created.” Firstborn could mean the first brought to life. Adam certainly wouldn't be considered as the second born for he was created and not born. Cain was the firstborn of man, not Adam or Eve who were created. Cain could be considered the second born of all creation unless animals were born before him.
Quote And as far as your beliefs about the God-Head, consider John 13:16, where Jesus is praying to his God, Jehovah, “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” First, it has Jesus praying to his God, Jehovah. And second, it is obvious from his statement that Jehovah is the ONLY TRUE GOD, and that Jesus is a separate individual who is NOT THE ONLY TRUE GOD, but someone praying to the only true God. From the Son's point of view, the Father is the only true God and His only God. The Son would not be in His own Godhead. The Father never speaks of Himself as having a God because the Father is the source of all. The Son speaks of having a God because the Son is from the source of all. The Most High God would be the ultimate and highest position because He always existed. The Son would not be considered the only true God because He has a source and did not always exist, however, He is God from the only true God.
Quote Jesus doesn't say, “that they may know US, THE ONLY TRUE GOD”. But what he does say is the key for me to the whole God-Head debate: THIS MEANS ETERNAL LIFE! Getting to know the only true God, Jehovah, and understanding that Jesus is not Him, rather someone sent by Him to do the will of Him. If we know the Father, we will learn of the Son. We can't know the Father apart from the Son's revealing Him to us. So, to know
the only true God…we will know the Father and the Son. Not because they are the same being but because no one knows the Father except the Son. See here:
Matt 11:27
27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
NASUAlso read:
John 17:3
3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
NASUYou have to have both for eternal life, not the Father only.
Thanks for your thoughtful questions. I hope my explanations are fairly clear.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 07 2010,11:52) Quote (mikeboll @ Feb. 06 2010,15:45) Hi Kathi, I very much enjoy your approach to “debating” the deity of Jesus. You are not condescending or rude or arrogant.
First, that passage in Proverbs talks not only of wisdom, but of understanding and prudence. If you are going to physically embody wisdom in Christ, who embodies understanding? And who embodies prudence, who is said to dwell together with wisdom?
Second, if we can believe that the Proverb is talking about Jesus, why didn't you start at verse 22, which states, “Jehovah brought me forth as the first of his works…”? Because when you read the whole thing in context, it becomes clear that verse 23 is actually saying that God appointed or established him from eternity, not that he was from eternity. In other words, God decided from eternity that at some point he would create wisdom/Jesus.
As far as the Son not being created, what about Colossians 1:15, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF all CREATION.”? It does say “of creation”, right? Besides, it also says the only true God is invisible, Jesus is not.
And as far as your beliefs about the God-Head, consider John 13:16, where Jesus is praying to his God, Jehovah, “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” First, it has Jesus praying to his God, Jehovah. And second, it is obvious from his statement that Jehovah is the ONLY TRUE GOD, and that Jesus is a separate individual who is NOT THE ONLY TRUE GOD, but someone praying to the only true God.
Jesus doesn't say, “that they may know US, THE ONLY TRUE GOD”. But what he does say is the key for me to the whole God-Head debate: THIS MEANS ETERNAL LIFE! Getting to know the only true God, Jehovah, and understanding that Jesus is not Him, rather someone sent by Him to do the will of Him.
Hi Mike,You write:
Quote I very much enjoy your approach to “debating” the deity of Jesus. You are not condescending or rude or arrogant. Thanks! It is quite obvious to me that being condescending or rude or arrogant is a big turn off because it doesn't represent the fruits of the Spirit at all. It is also very ineffective to me when I see that attitude. Perhaps raising my 5 kids has helped me with my listening and debate skills. My kids are 13, 17, 19, 20 and 23. I have had my views challenged by 5 teenagers during the last 10 years
If you have teens or had teens you probably know what I am talking about. A parent constantly has to defend their position with a teen.Quote First, that passage in Proverbs talks not only of wisdom, but of understanding and prudence. If you are going to physically embody wisdom in Christ, who embodies understanding? And who embodies prudence, who is said to dwell together with wisdom? Well, I think that the passage in Proverbs starts talking about wisdom and prudence but later in the chapter, I believe that it speaks of the Son of God in a way that is understated. In other words, it has a somewhat hidden meaning. I asked the Lord once what the term “Firstborn of all creation” meant and His answer to me intertwines with this passage in Proverbs quite interestingly. PM me if you want to know what was revealed to me.
Quote Second, if we can believe that the Proverb is talking about Jesus, why didn't you start at verse 22, which states, “Jehovah brought me forth as the first of his works…”? Because when you read the whole thing in context, it becomes clear that verse 23 is actually saying that God appointed or established him from eternity, not that he was from eternity. In other words, God decided from eternity that at some point he would create wisdom/Jesus. I didn't point out v.22 for no reason. I was focusing on showing you where “from everlasting” is found. I do agree that the Most High God brought forth the Son and that the Son did not always exist. As I have said, I do not think that the Son was created but begotten. Also, I do not think that God was ever without wisdom and that is another reason that I think the end of this chapter is not talking about wisdom, literally.
Quote As far as the Son not being created, what about Colossians 1:15, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF all CREATION.”? It does say “of creation”, right? Besides, it also says the only true God is invisible, Jesus is not. The term “firstborn” does not equal “first created.” Firstborn could mean the first brought to life. Adam certainly wouldn't be considered as the second born for he was created and not born. Cain was the firstborn of man, not Adam or Eve who were created. Cain could be considered the second born of all creation unless animals were born before him.
Quote And as far as your beliefs about the God-Head, consider John 13:16, where Jesus is praying to his God, Jehovah, “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” First, it has Jesus praying to his God, Jehovah. And second, it is obvious from his statement that Jehovah is the ONLY TRUE GOD, and that Jesus is a separate individual who is NOT THE ONLY TRUE GOD, but someone praying to the only true God. From the Son's point of view, the Father is the only true God and His only God. The Son would not be in His own Godhead. The Father never speaks of Himself as having a God because the Father is the source of all. The Son speaks of having a God because the Son is from the source of all. The Most High God would be the ultimate and highest position because He always existed. The Son would not be considered the only true God because He has a source and did not always exist, however, He is God from the only true God.
Quote Jesus doesn't say, “that they may know US, THE ONLY TRUE GOD”. But what he does say is the key for me to the whole God-Head debate: THIS MEANS ETERNAL LIFE! Getting to know the only true God, Jehovah, and understanding that Jesus is not Him, rather someone sen
t by Him to do the will of Him.If we know the Father, we will learn of the Son. We can't know the Father apart from the Son's revealing Him to us. So, to know the only true God…we will know the Father and the Son. Not because they are the same being but because no one knows the Father except the Son. See here:
Matt 11:27
27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
NASUAlso read:
John 17:3
3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
NASUYou have to have both for eternal life, not the Father only.
Thanks for your thoughtful questions. I hope my explanations are fairly clear.
Kathi
[/QUOTE]
Hi Kathi,
Just quickly for now: We do need both for eternal life, but why? It is because mankind became so full of sin that God could not be righteous in ever calling us righteous. In other words, He distanced himself from us because He is Holy. The only chance we had is if He sent a mediator. Why do you think the ancients could talk to God pesonally and He with them. And now we cannot even talk to God without it going through Jesus. So if God is too Holy for us to reach him, and we have to go through Jesus, wouldn't Jesus also be too Holy for us if he were God?
Mikeboll! Welcome, as far as God is concerned even the Father Jehovah God called Jesus God in
Hebrew 1:9 Also in
John 1:1 The Word is called God, and we know that the Word is who became Jesus. verse 14
IMO God is a title and many have been called God in Ancient times. Even Satan is called God of this World. I do not believe in a trinity, but I do agree that our Heavenly Father Jehovah is above all.
Ephesians 4:6
Also Jesus preexisted His Birth here on earth..
Col. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:14
He is the firstborn of all creation, and then God the father gave Him the power to create all, All in
Col. 1:15-17
He also is the firstborn of the death, s that in all He may have preeminence verse 18Peace and Love Irene
Mike,
I think that the price to restore fellowship between the Father and mankind was paid for by the greatest and most perfect the Father had to give since He couldn't send Himself, He sent His Son…who was willing. Obviously His Son became what was necessary to accomplish the task and that is what is important. We could speculate on and on but it would just be speculating. If it were necessary for the sacrifice to be the greatest being aside from the Most High God, what type of being would be greater than the angels? Wouldn't it be a literal son of the Most High Himself…one that had the nature of deity. No other being has the nature of deity except for the Father and the Son. And then, for the sacrifice to be one of blood shed, the Son would have to take on flesh and become like man and overcome temptations to prove His obedience and perfection in order to be proven pure and without blemish.Kathi
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 17 2010,12:20) LU
first we have already establish God as no beginning,
as for the Son the only begotten it says it by it self ;if he is begotten he as a beginning ,
wen was he begotten the scriptures says in the beginning of his birth obviously there is no time table.
it also mention in the beginning of creation,so we understand he is the first of all creation.
it is also understood that all creation as been created for him and by him,this in my understanding means that God create his arm (mean is means of action)this is the WORD,wisdom,Christ,
Christ is the first born of God the first in wisdom ,the first to be resurrected from the dead to everlasting and incorruptible live.the reason why he is at the right hand of God,? it because he wanted to be the first and he wanted to be greatest,how did Christ became and received all that let look at his words;in
Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”so Jesus became the servant and the slave and by doing this he became to sit at the right hand of God
this means that he as recieve all powers up to the father but not equal or over the father
Hello there Lu,Are you SURE that when the scriptures says: “all creation” that it is literally speaking of ALL of God's creation, including all of the animals, reptiles, marsupials, insects, angels and all other life forms in the universe?
At Romans 8:19-21 was Paul speaking of *ALL* creation? Or just speaking of mankind?
So when Christ is spoken of as “the first born of all creation” at Colossians 1:15 could this just mean just the “first born of all the “new creation” of mankind? Or as verse 18 brings out, “the beginning”, (of the New Creation) “the first born from the dead”?
And verse 20 says: “and through him to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross, through him I say whether things on earth or things in heaven?”
So when Paul said that the father used Christ to reconcile ALL THINGS to himself, through the cross, did he mean everything (all creation) that God created? or was he only meaning mankind and perhaps the repentant angels?
And when Jesus said: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation” (See Mark 16:15)
Was the gospel to be preached to literally ALL of God's creation? Or just to mankind?
And when does the Scriptures say that Christ was begotten? And what occurred when he was “begotten”?
Kathy wrote
“If it were necessary for the sacrifice to be the greatest being aside from the Most High God, what type of being would be greater than the angels? Wouldn't it be a literal son of the Most High Himself…one that had the nature of deity. No other being has the nature of deity except for the Father and the Son. And then, for the sacrifice to be one of blood shed, the Son would have to take on flesh and become like man and overcome temptations to prove His obedience and perfection in order to be proven pure and without blemish.”
My reply:
In the book of Job, God's angels are spoken of as “the sons of God”.
Christ reflected his Father's nature. (Divine qualities) This is why the scriptures says that he is the image of God. Of course this doesn't mean that God is made of flesh or has the shape of men. It is my understanding that to be made in God's image, is to be patterned after God's LIKENESS. (Having His personal qualities)
This is why Genesis 1:26 says:
“Then God SAID, “Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR LIKENESS.”……” ( I would like to discuss this Scripture further but in another post)
And verse 27 further says:
“And God created man in His OWN image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”
Notice that men were made IN GOD'S IMAGE. Isn't this what the scriptures say about Christ? That he is the exact IMAGE of God?
Some would hold to the notion that because Jesus is the exact image of God that he must also be deity? So was Adam and Eve, because they were created in God's image, to be considered as God? A “deity”? No, for when the Jews accused him of claiming to be equal with God just because he claimed to be God's son, Jesus reminded them of Psalms 82:
If someone here is not yet familiar with that chapter in Psalms, please review it. For it fully explains how God views His children.
And besides, the Jews even themselves claimed to be sons of God by stating that God was their Father!! First they said that Abraham was their father, then they turned around and said that they had ONLY ONE FATHER; GOD. (See John 8:39-41)
Adam and Eve, through their disobedience and rebellion, fell short of being in God's image because they became sinful.
So a sinless MAN made in God's image was needed to undo what Adam and Eve did to themselves and to their children. So God planned a “seed of the woman” whom God would use to REDEEM mankind so that they, too can again, reflect the image of God.
This is why the scriptures says that we are to “put on Christ”, and to pattern ourselves after him and after his image which is God's image. And when we become believers and baptize, INTO Christ, we come OUT from under the curse and death of Adam and are transferred into the promise OF LIFE through the ransomed body of Christ. We are given “the free gift” of life. (Our sins forgiven and being considered righteous through our faith in both God and Christ and being obedient to Christ's commandments)
But we have to carefully guard this free gift because we could lose it and fall short of it through falling away,(losing faith) and through disobedience. Many Israelites (not all) lost God's favor because of their lack of faith and because of their disobedience. Hebrews 3:12-19
When Christ comes we have to be found “awake” and “ready”. (Faithful and DISCREET, not foolish)
So as you can (no doubt) tell by my post, I personally do not believe or accept the teaching that Jesus shares God's Diety. (I don't find it to be scripturaly supported)
For only God is to be worshiped and Jesus himself confirmed this through his words to Satan (when he was being tempted in the wilderness) and through his teaching.
hi dancing.
before all creation is before all mean everything.preach the gospel to all creation, means to all everything why ?
how could it be any other way one benefit from the other ,the same way that wen Adam sin the earth was cursed ,so is it wen all men will obey the gospel all will be blessed in it.LU,
Well my questions sure opened that floodgate!I'm glad to hear the differing views on God – who/what people think He is because it now lets me(us) know why we are disagreeing or maintainig our own views so vigorously.
Let each one of us believe foremost in God the Father and Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, who God Almighty.
Let each one of us give Worship to God the Father alone
(Please check very carefully for supporting Scriptural verses if you decide to include the Son here.
Please set aside 'sentiment' as your reason – The Son has his reward, God's 'reward' is fullfilment of his word that 'all worship' is his alone.)Let each of us give Praise, Honor and Glory to both The Father and the Son.
Let us agree that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, the father who alone is Holy (and thereby worthy of Worship…)
Let us agree that, irrespective of the 'nature'/'form'/'image' of Jesus while in heaven, that when on earth he was 'fully' man. Fully man And Sinless, because only by being in this condition could mankind gain Salvation through the suffering and death of such a sinless one (Death through the Sinful exchanged for Life through the Sinless)
Let us agree that Jesus is our reigning King,who is, even now, bringing about the reconcilement of the Kingdom of God, ultimately, to the Glory of God the Father.
Can anyone add or amend…
my own amendment…
First 'Let': 'who is God Almighty.' should be attached to 'the Father'.Maybe I should have numbered these 'Let's'…
Quote (Dancingforyounomore @ Feb. 07 2010,18:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 17 2010,12:20) LU
first we have already establish God as no beginning,
as for the Son the only begotten it says it by it self ;if he is begotten he as a beginning ,
wen was he begotten the scriptures says in the beginning of his birth obviously there is no time table.
it also mention in the beginning of creation,so we understand he is the first of all creation.
it is also understood that all creation as been created for him and by him,this in my understanding means that God create his arm (mean is means of action)this is the WORD,wisdom,Christ,
Christ is the first born of God the first in wisdom ,the first to be resurrected from the dead to everlasting and incorruptible live.the reason why he is at the right hand of God,? it because he wanted to be the first and he wanted to be greatest,how did Christ became and received all that let look at his words;in
Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”so Jesus became the servant and the slave and by doing this he became to sit at the right hand of God
this means that he as recieve all powers up to the father but not equal or over the father
Hello there Lu,Are you SURE that when the scriptures says: “all creation” that it is literally speaking of ALL of God's creation, including all of the animals, reptiles, marsupials, insects, angels and all other life forms in the universe?
At Romans 8:19-21 was Paul speaking of *ALL* creation? Or just speaking of mankind?
So when Christ is spoken of as “the first born of all creation” at Colossians 1:15 could this just mean just the “first born of all the “new creation” of mankind? Or as verse 18 brings out, “the beginning”, (of the New Creation) “the first born from the dead”?
And verse 20 says: “and through him to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross, through him I say whether things on earth or things in heaven?”
So when Paul said that the father used Christ to reconcile ALL THINGS to himself, through the cross, did he mean everything (all creation) that God created? or was he only meaning mankind and perhaps the repentant angels?
And when Jesus said: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation” (See Mark 16:15)
Was the gospel to be preached to literally ALL of God's creation? Or just to mankind?
And when does the Scriptures say that Christ was begotten? And what occurred when he was “begotten”?
Hi another new member Welcome! First Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. He was brought forth and is the begotten Son of God. The Father then gave Jesus all power to create all. That means the Angels too. IMO there is a difference between the begotten Son of God and those that were created by Jesus by the power of God. In Genesis it is us and our, so we know that both united stood and created. But we always have to remember that Jehovah God is above all Ephesians 4:6.
That also means that Jesus existed before He became a man.
We do have good Scriptures that tell us so
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that is on earth………
Rev, 3:14….”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.IN Proverbs 8:22-30 are very interesting Scriptures. IMO it is talking about Jesus. Some might say it is Wisdom being born. My common sense tells me though, that God always had Wisdom and why would it have to be born then. So lets look at these..
Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before the works of old.
verse 23
I have been established fro everlasting, from the beginning before there were ever an earth.
verse 24
When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
verse 25
Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
verse 26
While as yet He had made the earth or the fields.
Or the primeval dust of the world.
verse 27
When He prepared the heavens, I was there
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep;
verse 28
When He established the clouds above,
When He straightened the fountains of the deep.
verse 29
When He assigned to the sea it's limit.
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundation of the earth.
verse 30
Then I was beside Him, as a master craftsman;
and I was His delight ,
Rejoicing always before Him.The question I have to those who think it is wisdom, was it ever called the master craftsman, and was the Fathers delight?
IMO it is Jesus, two times it says was brought forth….
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 07 2010,18:05) Mike,
I think that the price to restore fellowship between the Father and mankind was paid for by the greatest and most perfect the Father had to give since He couldn't send Himself, He sent His Son…who was willing. Obviously His Son became what was necessary to accomplish the task and that is what is important. We could speculate on and on but it would just be speculating. If it were necessary for the sacrifice to be the greatest being aside from the Most High God, what type of being would be greater than the angels? Wouldn't it be a literal son of the Most High Himself…one that had the nature of deity. No other being has the nature of deity except for the Father and the Son. And then, for the sacrifice to be one of blood shed, the Son would have to take on flesh and become like man and overcome temptations to prove His obedience and perfection in order to be proven pure and without blemish.Kathi
[/QUOTE]
Hi Kathi,
I agree that Jesus is the most high being who ever existed aside from God. But I don't agree that it was necessary for God to sacrifice the most high being ever created in exchange for a man.
Adam was a man who was created perfect and chose to sin, bringing sin and death to all. Jehovah needed another perfect man who chose not to sin to balance the scales. Jesus was “demoted” to a man to take on this task.
Jehovah is a God of exact justice. He couldn't sacrifice something more than Adam to atone for his sins. That is why Jesus is called the “last Adam”.
So when you say “since He couldn't send Himself”, I have to say, why would God have to be sacrificed to atone for a mere mortal?
I agree with you and Irene that when everything (besides Jesus) was created through Jesus, that they were created lower than Jesus. Some people think Jesus was the original angel, then helped create the other angels, who are equal to him. But Hebrews 1:5, “For to which of the angels did God ever say 'You are my Son…”, makes me think Jesus was something higher than an angel.
Justaskin, I agree with every one of your “Let's agrees”
Dancing, good post! It's true that only God is to be worshipped.
Kathi, if you want to consider Jesus a deity, because he is a supernatural heavenly being, fine. But please don't worship him as a God, for we know there is only one.
Hey Nick,
Let me look into it and get back to you next weekend. I'll be away from the computer all week. I know he was created without defect or disease and could have lived forever had he not sinned. But I thought somewhere Paul called him a “perfect man”. Maybe I'm wrong.Quote (Dancingforyounomore @ Feb. 07 2010,19:30) (Faithful and DISCREET, not foolish)
Hi Dancingforyounomore,Welcome to the forum!
Are you a JW?Quote (Dancingforyounomore @ Feb. 07 2010,19:30) Kathy wrote “If it were necessary for the sacrifice to be the greatest being aside from the Most High God, what type of being would be greater than the angels? Wouldn't it be a literal son of the Most High Himself…one that had the nature of deity. No other being has the nature of deity except for the Father and the Son. And then, for the sacrifice to be one of blood shed, the Son would have to take on flesh and become like man and overcome temptations to prove His obedience and perfection in order to be proven pure and without blemish.”
My reply:
In the book of Job, God's angels are spoken of as “the sons of God”.
Christ reflected his Father's nature. (Divine qualities) This is why the scriptures says that he is the image of God. Of course this doesn't mean that God is made of flesh or has the shape of men. It is my understanding that to be made in God's image, is to be patterned after God's LIKENESS. (Having His personal qualities)
This is why Genesis 1:26 says:
“Then God SAID, “Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR LIKENESS.”……” ( I would like to discuss this Scripture further but in another post)
And verse 27 further says:
“And God created man in His OWN image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”
Notice that men were made IN GOD'S IMAGE. Isn't this what the scriptures say about Christ? That he is the exact IMAGE of God?
Some would hold to the notion that because Jesus is the exact image of God that he must also be deity? So was Adam and Eve, because they were created in God's image, to be considered as God? A “deity”? No, for when the Jews accused him of claiming to be equal with God just because he claimed to be God's son, Jesus reminded them of Psalms 82:
If someone here is not yet familiar with that chapter in Psalms, please review it. For it fully explains how God views His children.
And besides, the Jews even themselves claimed to be sons of God by stating that God was their Father!! First they said that Abraham was their father, then they turned around and said that they had ONLY ONE FATHER; GOD. (See John 8:39-41)
Adam and Eve, through their disobedience and rebellion, fell short of being in God's image because they became sinful.
So a sinless MAN made in God's image was needed to undo what Adam and Eve did to themselves and to their children. So God planned a “seed of the woman” whom God would use to REDEEM mankind so that they, too can again, reflect the image of God.
This is why the scriptures says that we are to “put on Christ”, and to pattern ourselves after him and after his image which is God's image. And when we become believers and baptize, INTO Christ, we come OUT from under the curse and death of Adam and are transferred into the promise OF LIFE through the ransomed body of Christ. We are given “the free gift” of life. (Our sins forgiven and being considered righteous through our faith in both God and Christ and being obedient to Christ's commandments)
But we have to carefully guard this free gift because we could lose it and fall short of it through falling away,(losing faith) and through disobedience. Many Israelites (not all) lost God's favor because of their lack of faith and because of their disobedience. Hebrews 3:12-19
When Christ comes we have to be found “awake” and “ready”. (Faithful and DISCREET, not foolish)
So as you can (no doubt) tell by my post, I personally do not believe or accept the teaching that Jesus shares God's Diety. (I don't find it to be scripturaly supported)
For only God is to be worshiped and Jesus himself confirmed this through his words to Satan (when he was being tempted in the wilderness) and through his teaching.
Hi and welcome DFY,
Of course to be forgiven we must repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus.And to be able to become like Jesus we need rebirth from above by the Spirit of God that transformed him.
We all must repent and be born again of water and the Spirit as without it we have not sought and found the kingdom, the first priority given to all men.[Mt6]
Quote (Dancingforyounomore @ Feb. 07 2010,02:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 17 2010,12:20) LU
first we have already establish God as no beginning,
as for the Son the only begotten it says it by it self ;if he is begotten he as a beginning ,
wen was he begotten the scriptures says in the beginning of his birth obviously there is no time table.
it also mention in the beginning of creation,so we understand he is the first of all creation.
it is also understood that all creation as been created for him and by him,this in my understanding means that God create his arm (mean is means of action)this is the WORD,wisdom,Christ,
Christ is the first born of God the first in wisdom ,the first to be resurrected from the dead to everlasting and incorruptible live.the reason why he is at the right hand of God,? it because he wanted to be the first and he wanted to be greatest,how did Christ became and received all that let look at his words;in
Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”so Jesus became the servant and the slave and by doing this he became to sit at the right hand of God
this means that he as recieve all powers up to the father but not equal or over the father
Hello there Lu,Are you SURE that when the scriptures says: “all creation” that it is literally speaking of ALL of God's creation, including all of the animals, reptiles, marsupials, insects, angels and all other life forms in the universe?
At Romans 8:19-21 was Paul speaking of *ALL* creation? Or just speaking of mankind?
So when Christ is spoken of as “the first born of all creation” at Colossians 1:15 could this just mean just the “first born of all the “new creation” of mankind? Or as verse 18 brings out, “the beginning”, (of the New Creation) “the first born from the dead”?
And verse 20 says: “and through him to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross, through him I say whether things on earth or things in heaven?”
So when Paul said that the father used Christ to reconcile ALL THINGS to himself, through the cross, did he mean everything (all creation) that God created? or was he only meaning mankind and perhaps the repentant angels?
And when Jesus said: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation” (See Mark 16:15)
Was the gospel to be preached to literally ALL of God's creation? Or just to mankind?
And when does the Scriptures say that Christ was begotten? And what occurred when he was “begotten”?
Hi Dancingfynm,Welcome to HN! I hope you are strengthened here.
You ask:
Quote Are you SURE that when the scriptures says: “all creation” that it is literally speaking of ALL of God's creation, including all of the animals, reptiles, marsupials, insects, angels and all other life forms in the universe? I would say yes. He was before anything in heaven or on the earth…all things visible and invisible except of course His Father.
Quote At Romans 8:19-21 was Paul speaking of *ALL* creation? Or just speaking of mankind? The context of Romans 8:19-21 is speaking of mankind, I believe.
Quote So when Christ is spoken of as “the first born of all creation” at Colossians 1:15 could this just mean just the “first born of all the “new creation” of mankind? Or as verse 18 brings out, “the beginning”, (of the New Creation) “the first born from the dead”? When the Son of God is spoken of as “the firstborn of all creation” in Col 1:15 this does not mean the “new creation” although being firstborn from the dead could mean that. Colossians chapter one goes on to say:
1:18 He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn from among the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things.In this context of Col 1:15-18 there are a few things mentioned that the Son of first in:
Firstborn of all creation (the original creation)
Head of the church
Firstborn from among the dead (the new creation) imo.Quote And verse 20 says: “and through him to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross, through him I say whether things on earth or things in heaven?” So when Paul said that the father used Christ to reconcile ALL THINGS to himself, through the cross, did he mean everything (all creation) that God created? or was he only meaning mankind and perhaps the repentant angels?
My guess is that all the things that will be “reconciled” to the Father because of the cross will include the heavens and the earth as well as all living things. All created things will either be renewed or destroyed to bring harmony back among all things. Whatever needs to be reconciled in order to establish harmony will be done.
Quote And when Jesus said: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation” (See Mark 16:15) Was the gospel to be preached to literally ALL of God's creation? Or just to mankind?
Are you asking if we should preach to trees and rocks too besides mankind? My answer is just mankind.
Quote And when does the Scriptures say that Christ was begotten? And what occurred when he was “begotten”? I believe that the only Son of God was begotten of God in the beginning. See John 1:1
He was also spoken of as begotton as a son in a sense upon His resurrection when He was ordained as the eternal king in His kingdom. This terminology “You are my son, today I have begotten you” was a type of ceremonial saying said to many by the Lord at the coronation of their Davidic kingship as I understand it.
You asked what occurred when He was “begotten.” From my understanding…when He was originally begotten into life (not in the sense of beginning His reign), He began His existence alongside His Father. I believe that happened on day one of creation.
Those are all good questions! I have given you my understanding or at least my b
est guess. Someday we will know for sure!Kathi
Quote (Dancingforyounomore @ Feb. 07 2010,03:30) Kathy wrote “If it were necessary for the sacrifice to be the greatest being aside from the Most High God, what type of being would be greater than the angels? Wouldn't it be a literal son of the Most High Himself…one that had the nature of deity. No other being has the nature of deity except for the Father and the Son. And then, for the sacrifice to be one of blood shed, the Son would have to take on flesh and become like man and overcome temptations to prove His obedience and perfection in order to be proven pure and without blemish.”
My reply:
In the book of Job, God's angels are spoken of as “the sons of God”.
Christ reflected his Father's nature. (Divine qualities) This is why the scriptures says that he is the image of God. Of course this doesn't mean that God is made of flesh or has the shape of men. It is my understanding that to be made in God's image, is to be patterned after God's LIKENESS. (Having His personal qualities)
This is why Genesis 1:26 says:
“Then God SAID, “Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR LIKENESS.”……” ( I would like to discuss this Scripture further but in another post)
And verse 27 further says:
“And God created man in His OWN image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”
Notice that men were made IN GOD'S IMAGE. Isn't this what the scriptures say about Christ? That he is the exact IMAGE of God?
Some would hold to the notion that because Jesus is the exact image of God that he must also be deity? So was Adam and Eve, because they were created in God's image, to be considered as God? A “deity”? No, for when the Jews accused him of claiming to be equal with God just because he claimed to be God's son, Jesus reminded them of Psalms 82:
If someone here is not yet familiar with that chapter in Psalms, please review it. For it fully explains how God views His children.
And besides, the Jews even themselves claimed to be sons of God by stating that God was their Father!! First they said that Abraham was their father, then they turned around and said that they had ONLY ONE FATHER; GOD. (See John 8:39-41)
Adam and Eve, through their disobedience and rebellion, fell short of being in God's image because they became sinful.
So a sinless MAN made in God's image was needed to undo what Adam and Eve did to themselves and to their children. So God planned a “seed of the woman” whom God would use to REDEEM mankind so that they, too can again, reflect the image of God.
This is why the scriptures says that we are to “put on Christ”, and to pattern ourselves after him and after his image which is God's image. And when we become believers and baptize, INTO Christ, we come OUT from under the curse and death of Adam and are transferred into the promise OF LIFE through the ransomed body of Christ. We are given “the free gift” of life. (Our sins forgiven and being considered righteous through our faith in both God and Christ and being obedient to Christ's commandments)
But we have to carefully guard this free gift because we could lose it and fall short of it through falling away,(losing faith) and through disobedience. Many Israelites (not all) lost God's favor because of their lack of faith and because of their disobedience. Hebrews 3:12-19
When Christ comes we have to be found “awake” and “ready”. (Faithful and DISCREET, not foolish)
So as you can (no doubt) tell by my post, I personally do not believe or accept the teaching that Jesus shares God's Diety. (I don't find it to be scripturaly supported)
For only God is to be worshiped and Jesus himself confirmed this through his words to Satan (when he was being tempted in the wilderness) and through his teaching.
Hello again Dancingfynm,You wrote:
Quote So as you can (no doubt) tell by my post, I personally do not believe or accept the teaching that Jesus shares God's Diety. (I don't find it to be scripturaly supported) For only God is to be worshiped and Jesus himself confirmed this through his words to Satan (when he was being tempted in the wilderness) and through his teaching.
Scripture does support that the Son of God is “theos” several times by many. It never credits Him as the “Most High theos” though.
Also, God Himself instructs the angels to “worship” the Son in Hebrews 1.
When I worship the Son as the Son of God I show worship of the Father. When I believe in the Son, I believe in the Father. I do think that it pleases God, the Father and that He is not at all jealous of His Son when the Son receives worship. To truly worship the Son as the Son of God would be knowing that His Father is greater than Him.
I worship the Son as part of the Godhead make up of God, the Father and the Lord, Jesus Christ.
I know that it is the Father's good pleasure that I worship His Son as well…I asked Him. We can ask Him anything. Scripture says that if any of you lack wisdom we can ask for it and He will give it.
Kathi
LU,
I don't think you know what you are saying when you say that you WORSHIP God and his Son.
I think you mean that you Praise, Glorify and Honor him in your singing, your prayers and your thoughts.
If this is the case then all is good and you are Spirit filled.
Please can you tell me HOW you perform your WORSHIP.
Can you write a descriptive example, please.
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