- This topic has 963 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 2 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 01 2010,17:06) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 31 2010,16:20) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 30 2010,22:35) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 31 2010,12:42) Jesus is called “God” in several scriptures and by the Most High God Himself.
Kathi,I beg to differ. In the scriptures you listed, only one place does it seem that God is calling Jesus – God. And that is in Hebrews (hotly debated).
The Father (the Most High God) does not call his son “God” in any scripture that I am aware of.
Please state it.
Love,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,
I can see how you can read what I wrote the way that you have. Maybe this would have been a better way to say what I meant:“Jesus is called 'God' in several scriptures and one in particular by the Most High God Himself.”
I would think that being called “God” in Hebrews would fit the one that laid the foundation of the earth. I don't know why people make such a fuss over considering the Son as our God when He has the divine nature and took part in creating us. That would be a pretty big plus on His resume in His favor to demonstrate the title is applicable to Him also.
Kathi
Hello again,Kathi, please state the scripture where the Father calls his Son – God.
Are all the versions on board with this translation of scripture? If not, how come?
Thanks,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,
Sure, here is your verse in umpteen translations (notice that they all refer to the Son as “God.” Btw, the one speaking here is God the Father):Quote Hebrews 1:8 NET ©
but of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
NIV ©
biblegateway Heb 1:8
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the sceptre of your kingdom.
NASB ©
biblegateway Heb 1:8
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
NLT ©
biblegateway Heb 1:8
But to his Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal power is expressed in righteousness.
MSG ©
biblegateway Heb 1:8
But he says to the Son, You're God, and on the throne for good; your rule makes everything right.
BBE ©
SABDAweb Heb 1:8
But of the Son he says, Your seat of power, O God, is for ever and ever; and the rod of your kingdom is a rod of righteousness.
NRSV ©
bibleoremusHeb 1:8
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
NKJV ©
biblegateway Heb 1:8
But to the Son He says : “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.Hope that helps,
KathiQuote (katjo @ Feb. 01 2010,14:50) JustAskin, WOW! what kind of spirit is in you??? Dont think its one I would want! The Holy Spirit teaches you to be more like Christ! katjo
Hi Katjo,
I have to admit that I wondered the same thing.
KathiGod Bless You Kathi!( im Kathy too)
katjo
NIck, you simply deny scriptures! They have been showed to you word for word! You should find out who Jesus really is!
katjo
Hi KAT,
Why do you judge from such a weak foundation?
The traditions of men and their false teachers cannot save you.
There is only one name UNDER HEAVEN by which men can be saved and that is the Son of God.
Listen to himNICK, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WHEN DID I EVER SAY JESUS WASNT YOUR SAVIOR? HUh??
katjo
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 01 2010,16:00) Katjo, You lack understanding. WJ knows what I meant – has he complained?
JAKatjo does not lack judgment but in fact, his comment is proof that he has very good discernment!
Actually, sometimes it is not worth even mentioning or commenting on a mean spirited or judgmental post.
But I do agree with Kathi (Katjo) and Kathi (lightenup) about the projected attitude or spirit of your words.
Jesus said call no man a fool for you will be in danger of judgment!
You can agree to disagree with me if you like, but I would rather that you give me a reason for rejecting my words rather than casting judgment on me!
But I will say I love you in Jesus and wish his very best for you in your quest for knowing who God is!
Blessings WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 01 2010,16:06) Katjo, You response makes you even more of a fools. When you walk with your eyes shut you only will walk blindly into unpleasat.
Think before you speak next time.
JAI might also ask what kind of Spirit is in you when you speak like this to a believer in Christ?
May the Lord show abundance of kindness and Love toward you!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2010,08:48) Quote (mikeboll @ Jan. 31 2010,00:46) Hi Kathi I'm getting lost I think because of your wording. You call the Son “our God”, but for us, there is only one God, the Father. I don't disagree that Jesus is a god in that he is a supernatural being and an integral part of our salvation, but to say Jesus is our God and the Father is our God makes two Gods. Maybe I'm understanding you wrong.
Hello Mikeboll,I wouldn't equate the “god/God” label that we see in reference to the Son of God with satan as god, or the angels as god, or men as god. Only the Son of God is said to have the nature of God. He does not refute the Pharisees as considering Himself God, He refutes the Pharisees that they would think He was blaspheming. I do believe that the Son of God is God in a way that none of the others are…as a son, specifically and as one that the Father Himself sanctified and sent to shepherd His (the Son's) very own flock.
Quote 24 The R665 Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will F117 You keep us in suspense? If You are the F118 Christ, tell us plainly.” R666 25 Jesus answered them, “I R667 told you, and you do not believe; the R668 works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 “But you do not believe because you R669 are not of My sheep. 27 “My sheep hear R670 My voice, and I R671 know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal R672 life to them, and they will never perish; and no R673 one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My F119 Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 “I R674 and the Father are one.” F120 31 The Jews picked R675 up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; R676 and because You, being a man, make R677 Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your R678 Law, R679 `I R680 SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35 37 “If R684 I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the R685 works, so that you may know F121 and understand that the R686 Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” Are you implying that you do not want to be part of His (the Son's) flock since you cannot call the Son “our God.” Must He be called God on your terms or can He be called God on the Father's terms alone? Can He be the God that is in the Most High God? Or, does He have to be the Most High God for you to acknowledge His deity?
I consider Him (the Son) as part of deity over me but I also acknowledge the Father as greater than the Son and not coequal.
Kathi
[/QUOTE]
Hi Kathi,
The scrip you quoted works for me. Maybe we read it differently. I read Jesus saying if God can call his prophets “god” (ones to whom the word of God came), then why am I accused of blasphemy for saying NOT that I am God, but God's Son? After all, you're seeing more than any previous prophet in front of you.This scrip backs up my previous point. God called prophets “god” in that Psalm. Seems to me that we have a different usage of the word god today than in biblical times. I mean, when talking to someone about Satan, do you ever call him a god? But Paul sure did in 2 Cor. 4:4.
Or if you actually see an angel, would you call him god? But Samson's parents did. And so did Isaac when he wrestled with an angel.
So the bottom line for me is: if we say Jesus is God Almighty because he is called god, we have to also include Satan, prophets and all angels as God Almighty.
Mikeboll,
Thanks for your reply. We do read that passage differently. Let's think for awhile about how Jesus is quite different than any other being that has been called “god” other than the Father.He is credited with taking part in creation and will take part in the new creation
He is from everlasting
He can forgive sins
He can give us life
He can give us the Holy Spirit
He says to believe “in” Him
He can save us
He rules forever
He has a kingdom…a kingdom of light
He was the bread from heaven
He sits at the right hand of the Father
He is our mediator
He is called the “Word of God”
He was the Lamb that was slain
He is the wonderful counselor, mighty god, prince of peace, everlasting father
The exact representation of God's nature
The radiance of God's glory
Our great God and savior
and on and on it goes…If Jesus is indeed less than the Most High God, He is indeed far superior as god than any other so called gods. Btw, the other so called gods did not have the nature of god but the Son does. I think that the revelation of God's Son gave the people a new understanding of who God is and that there is a plurality within the Godhead to include the Father as God and the Son as the Lord. Theos can mean many things. If it can mean the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit as the Holy Trinity, it can mean the Father and the Son as the Holy Unity, united by the nature and the Spirit of the Father. Oh boy, I think that I just invented a new term…”the Holy Unity.”
There is no comparison of the Son as god/God to satan, prophets and the angels.
So, I say that the Son of God is our God “in” the Father-the Most High God.
Kathi
Hi Kathi,
You make very good points, but:
1. All life and creation came FROM God, THROUGH Jesus. Jesus couldn't (and never claimed to) do anything on his own. In fact he states the opposite.
2. Jesus had authority FROM GOD to forgive sins on earth.
3. Where does it say Jesus is FROM everlasting?
4. Although Jesus is quoted saying he will send the Holy Spirit, he also is quoted as saying I will request that the Father send you a helper. The Holy Spirit is God's spirit, not Jesus'. And with God's permission, Jesus sent it to his early congregation.
5. Jesus doesn't say to believe in him as God, what he says is if you believe in him (as the Son of God), you not only believe in him, but in the One who sent him.
6. Mankind has known many saviors: King Saul, King David, Jonah saved Ninevah, etc. And if you bring only one person to God in your life, you too are a savior. But noone, including Jesus, could be a savior at all if it is not willed by God.
7. Jesus will rule for a thousand years, then will be made subject to the One who set him above all others in the first place, so God may be all in all…our forever King.
8. His Father conferred on him a kingdom, as he confers one on us.
9. He sits at the right hand of God because he is God's “number 2 in command”, not His equal.
10. It only makes sense that God's first and greatest creation would be the exact representation of God's nature and would radiate God's glory.
Peace and love to you,
mike
Hi Mike,
I understand this passage in Proverbs to refer to the Son of God…many people do also. This is where I get that He was from everlasting which can be translated as “ancient times.”
Quote Prov 8:23-31
23 “From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world.
27 “When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men.
NASUI think the difference between you and I is this, even though we both see that the Father is greater than the Son, I regard the Son as great and a member of the Godhead with the Father and I see that Godhead as my Godhead. I believe that the Godhead always consisted of the Father and now consists of the Father and His Son. I do not see any other being as a member of the Godhead. Of course, I believe that the Holy Spirit is as much of the Father as the Father's mind is and how the Father extends Himself to us, through His Son.
You seem to equate the Son with a being like an angel that was created and thus a part of creation. I do not see the Son as a part of creation. I do not see the Son as being created but begotten and I believe there lies a huge difference between the two concepts.
So, I understand the Godhead as including #1 and #2 in command, the Father as God and the Son as Lord, and then much lower I place angels and mankind and then the rest of creation. So, when I worship the Son…I am worshipping the Father as well.
Understand?
Kathi
LU,
This is talking about Wisdom – Not Jesus.Noone has yet made a compelling presumption that it is talking about Jesus.
The issue of whether Jesus was 'from everlasting' cannot be establish as there is nothing to clear in the scriptures to make this claim without refute.
Perhaps it is not of concern (like the exact date of Jesus' birth) – except for Trinitarians who claim that he is but have no proof.
Moreover – if there is a Son, it LOGICALLY stands to reason that he came AFTER the Father – that is my conjecture.
It is unlikely that Jesus was one of the angels but there can only be ONE GOD (NO dispute) so even if Jesus was spawned directly from God he, Jesus, CANNOT BE 'GOD'.
Hi Kathi,
May I exhort you to consider the following truths from the scriptures.
1. God cannot die (the scriptures say that He is immortal), but Jesus was dead three days and three nights.
2. God has foreknowledge; Jesus only knew things (future) to the extent that His Father revealed to him. Jesus doesn't know the time of his return; But God definitely knows the answer to this question.
3. Speaking of gods, Jesus has a god, and he said so when he told Mary, “I ascend to my Father, and your Father; to My God and your God.” – John 20:17.
4. God cannot be tempted with sin; but Jesus was “tempted in all points, yet without sin” James 1:13.
5. Jesus made an unequivocal claim that his Father is greater than him (if he's part of a three-in-one trinity personage [whatever the Nicene Creed is alluding to; it's always been really confusing to me] then all parts have to be equal….bear in mind, the scriptures state that Jesus, even today in his exalted state in the heavenlies, is still a man, “for there is one God, and one mediator between God and men; the MAN, Christ Jesus.” Another thing that follows this is the verse: “God is not a man, that He should lie; neither a son of man, that He should repent.” – Numbers 23:19
6. Jesus is never once called, “God, the Son”, nor does he ever call himself God. Evidently, Jesus didn't think he was God; nor did demon spirits, because they always addressed him as “Son of the Highest”, “Son of God”, etc.
I hope this is helpful for you.
Blessings,\
\PatrickHi Kathi,
I very much enjoy your approach to “debating” the deity of Jesus. You are not condescending or rude or arrogant.
First, that passage in Proverbs talks not only of wisdom, but of understanding and prudence. If you are going to physically embody wisdom in Christ, who embodies understanding? And who embodies prudence, who is said to dwell together with wisdom?
Second, if we can believe that the Proverb is talking about Jesus, why didn't you start at verse 22, which states, “Jehovah brought me forth as the first of his works…”? Because when you read the whole thing in context, it becomes clear that verse 23 is actually saying that God appointed or established him from eternity, not that he was from eternity. In other words, God decided from eternity that at some point he would create wisdom/Jesus.
As far as the Son not being created, what about Colossians 1:15, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF all CREATION.”? It does say “of creation”, right? Besides, it also says the only true God is invisible, Jesus is not.
And as far as your beliefs about the God-Head, consider John 13:16, where Jesus is praying to his God, Jehovah, “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” First, it has Jesus praying to his God, Jehovah. And second, it is obvious from his statement that Jehovah is the ONLY TRUE GOD, and that Jesus is a separate individual who is NOT THE ONLY TRUE GOD, but someone praying to the only true God.
Jesus doesn't say, “that they may know US, THE ONLY TRUE GOD”. But what he does say is the key for me to the whole God-Head debate: THIS MEANS ETERNAL LIFE! Getting to know the only true God, Jehovah, and understanding that Jesus is not Him, rather someone sent by Him to do the will of Him.
Quote (glad tidings @ Feb. 07 2010,07:34) Hi Kathi, May I exhort you to consider the following truths from the scriptures.
1. God cannot die (the scriptures say that He is immortal), but Jesus was dead three days and three nights.
2. God has foreknowledge; Jesus only knew things (future) to the extent that His Father revealed to him. Jesus doesn't know the time of his return; But God definitely knows the answer to this question.
3. Speaking of gods, Jesus has a god, and he said so when he told Mary, “I ascend to my Father, and your Father; to My God and your God.” – John 20:17.
4. God cannot be tempted with sin; but Jesus was “tempted in all points, yet without sin” James 1:13.
5. Jesus made an unequivocal claim that his Father is greater than him (if he's part of a three-in-one trinity personage [whatever the Nicene Creed is alluding to; it's always been really confusing to me] then all parts have to be equal….bear in mind, the scriptures state that Jesus, even today in his exalted state in the heavenlies, is still a man, “for there is one God, and one mediator between God and men; the MAN, Christ Jesus.” Another thing that follows this is the verse: “God is not a man, that He should lie; neither a son of man, that He should repent.” – Numbers 23:19
6. Jesus is never once called, “God, the Son”, nor does he ever call himself God. Evidently, Jesus didn't think he was God; nor did demon spirits, because they always addressed him as “Son of the Highest”, “Son of God”, etc.
I hope this is helpful for you.
Blessings,\
\Patrick
Hi Patrick,Great points! Well done. I must point out that on your #6, it is not only evident, but scripurally based in Philippians 2:6, “(Jesus) did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.”
GT,
Spot on. Ever word of your post reflects my own thinking.Just as an aside – The God the Father is also never called “The Father of God” nor “God's Father”:
Jesus: “The Son of God”;
“God' Son”;
“the Son of the father”
Never: “God the Son”The Holy Spirit:
“The Spirit of God”
Never: “God the Holy Spirit”The Father:
“God”
“God the Father”
“God Almighty”Yet Trinitarians invents all the 'Never's above and claim that they are gospel.
Note that there is no corresponding Father-God title: “The Father of God”!
– Why might this be?
– Why is there “The Son of God”?
– Why is there “The [Holy] Spirit of God”?
but never: “The Father of God”?God (The father) Almighty
|
|_The Holy Spirit (Spirit of God, God's Spirit)
|
\_Jesus (Son of God, God's Son)No trinitarian has ever answered me on that (amongst other questions except for desperate nonesense answers!)
They certainly cannot fear God!
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 06 2010,15:22) LU,
This is talking about Wisdom – Not Jesus.Noone has yet made a compelling presumption that it is talking about Jesus.
The issue of whether Jesus was 'from everlasting' cannot be establish as there is nothing to clear in the scriptures to make this claim without refute.
Perhaps it is not of concern (like the exact date of Jesus' birth) – except for Trinitarians who claim that he is but have no proof.
Moreover – if there is a Son, it LOGICALLY stands to reason that he came AFTER the Father – that is my conjecture.
It is unlikely that Jesus was one of the angels but there can only be ONE GOD (NO dispute) so even if Jesus was spawned directly from God he, Jesus, CANNOT BE 'GOD'.
Hi JustAskin,
Real quickly…when it says “from everlasting” I do not believe that means 'always existent' necessarily since that Hebrew word can refer to ancient civilizations/tribes. Also, Jesus began in Mary, but the Son of God was around before creation. “From everlasting” can mean “from ancient times.” I believe that the Son of God was around for thousands of years before He was transfigured within the body of a man.I agree with you when you say that Jesus cannot be “God” in the sense of the Most High God, but to close your mind about Him being the God that is “in” the Most High God when we see in scriptures many times where the Son is being referred to as “theos” I think is going to limit your understanding.
I would add that if the Son of God was “spawned,” as you put it, directly from God…that in and of itself could very well make Him a deity, albeit not the equal of the one from whom He is from but far superior to any so-called gods that did not share the nature of the Most High God.
Kathi
LU,
Just like Worship, please can you give me a definition of God.
So far noone except myself has given a definition of Worship but it is used extensively by debaters here as if they have one. An dby this means everyone has their own def. Meaning that they are all right by their own understanding.
What is required is ONE definition – then we can agree or disagree on teh scriptures from that.
Same then of God.
To me God is ONE from Everlsting, ALMIGHTY, OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT, unseen by man, the Grand designer from whom the grand plan for mankind, the universe and all other creations came, the one who is over ALL THINGS – AT ALL TIMES and from whom all Spirit and Life eminates, unchanging, whose thoughts are as an act and who alone is HOLY, who is Spirit with a Spirit (Holy Spirit).
By this quick off the cuff definition we see that there can only be ONE.
Therefore any other thing cannot be God or “a God” – no matter from what source it comes.
Jesus changed to a WHOLLY Man – therefore he cannot have been God – A God cannot change.
Jesus has a body and a Spirit on earth but IS ONLY Spirit in heaven.Jesus is not OMNIPOTENT
Jesus is not OMNISCIENT
(All Spirits are OMNIPRESENT…)Jesus' thoughts are an act only by means of the Holy Spirit of God.
LU, It is wise to be cautious but over cautiousness leads to indecision and indecision leads to procrastination and procrastination leads to lack of faith and lack of faith leads to death.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
