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Jodi,
Read it yourself. I am not going to do your homework. Simply put the One speaking refers to YHWH in the third person throughout the chapter. We know from other passages in Isaiah that this Person shares the name YHWH with YHWH (e.g., 44:6). The speaker says that He Himself created the earth and called the heavens into existence. Then He says that He is sent by the Lord God and His Spirit. You have conditioned yourself to read the scriptures a certain way. This is the reason for your “oh boy” remark.Isaiah 48 is a passage that is commonly invoked by trinitarian scholars.
thinker
Hi TT,
So Jesus was God Himself?
And he is the Son of God?
And God was in Him?How do you sleep at night?
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 23 2009,13:53) Jodi,
Read it yourself. I am not going to do your homework. Simply put the One speaking refers to YHWH in the third person throughout the chapter. We know from other passages in Isaiah that this Person shares the name YHWH with YHWH (e.g., 44:6). The speaker says that He Himself created the earth and called the heavens into existence. Then He says that He is sent by the Lord God and His Spirit. You have conditioned yourself to read the scriptures a certain way. This is the reason for your “oh boy” remark.Isaiah 48 is a passage that is commonly invoked by trinitarian scholars.
thinker
Oh boy,DID I ASK you to do homework for me?
Good Grief! Like I would want a trinitarian to do homework from the bible for me. That's like asking if I'd like a blind person to drive me home. NO THANK YOU Jack.
I have conditioned myself to read scripture without any preconceived ideas but with an OPEN mind. I am the one going against conformity here!
I asked you a question, which was not meant to be answered from Isaiah alone, but from your view of the entire bible.
Can you or can you not explain WHO YHWH is?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 23 2009,17:39) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 23 2009,13:53) Jodi,
Read it yourself. I am not going to do your homework. Simply put the One speaking refers to YHWH in the third person throughout the chapter. We know from other passages in Isaiah that this Person shares the name YHWH with YHWH (e.g., 44:6). The speaker says that He Himself created the earth and called the heavens into existence. Then He says that He is sent by the Lord God and His Spirit. You have conditioned yourself to read the scriptures a certain way. This is the reason for your “oh boy” remark.Isaiah 48 is a passage that is commonly invoked by trinitarian scholars.
thinker
Oh boy,DID I ASK you to do homework for me?
Good Grief! Like I would want a trinitarian to do homework from the bible for me. That's like asking if I'd like a blind person to drive me home. NO THANK YOU Jack.
I have conditioned myself to read scripture without any preconceived ideas but with an OPEN mind. I am the one going against conformity here!
I asked you a question, which was not meant to be answered from Isaiah alone, but from your view of the entire bible.
Can you or can you not explain WHO YHWH is?
Jodi Lee,
You have indeed conditioned yourself. The Father said that His Son created the heavens and the earth and you deny it. It's like Hebrews chapter one doesn't even exist. I am beginning to think you cut those pages from your Bible. You never engage in exegesis. It's like pulluing teeth. Your method is the “pretext” method. You just take another scripture and pit it against the scripture I give you.I challenge you to a debate on Isaiah chapter 48. Just me and you and Isaiah 48. What do you say?
thinker
Thinker………how many scriptures you want that Shows GOD the FATHER created all things by HIS SELF,and HIMSELF ALONE, and if I post them tell me this will you believe them ? or will you like many Here deny them?, Just answer the question Yes or NO. If you can.
gene
T8 and Nick………Can we somehow have a thread that will not admit into it any speculations but only specific statements that will not be contradicted any where in scripture. Like for instance the Preexistence thread , You and some think Jesus preexisted and created everything , you say GOD did it (THROUGH) HIM but there are scriptures the say GOD did it alone and by himself. which indicated no ONE other then HIM Created everything. This seams to be a contradiction to scripture and to say GOD did it (through) is a conjecture not said in scripture anywhere. So why should it be allowed then Can't you have Nick monitor that and say it can't be allowed because it is conjecture and not specifically said . I am not saying do this on all threads But Just certain ones that are of great importance like the Preexistence of Jesus as a beings of some kind. Maybe this would be to difficult just asking. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 23 2009,17:39) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 23 2009,13:53) Jodi,
Read it yourself. I am not going to do your homework. Simply put the One speaking refers to YHWH in the third person throughout the chapter. We know from other passages in Isaiah that this Person shares the name YHWH with YHWH (e.g., 44:6). The speaker says that He Himself created the earth and called the heavens into existence. Then He says that He is sent by the Lord God and His Spirit. You have conditioned yourself to read the scriptures a certain way. This is the reason for your “oh boy” remark.Isaiah 48 is a passage that is commonly invoked by trinitarian scholars.
thinker
Oh boy,DID I ASK you to do homework for me?
Good Grief! Like I would want a trinitarian to do homework from the bible for me. That's like asking if I'd like a blind person to drive me home. NO THANK YOU Jack.
I have conditioned myself to read scripture without any preconceived ideas but with an OPEN mind. I am the one going against conformity here!
I asked you a question, which was not meant to be answered from Isaiah alone, but from your view of the entire bible.
Can you or can you not explain WHO YHWH is?
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 23 2009,19:59) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 23 2009,17:39) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 23 2009,13:53) Jodi,
Read it yourself. I am not going to do your homework. Simply put the One speaking refers to YHWH in the third person throughout the chapter. We know from other passages in Isaiah that this Person shares the name YHWH with YHWH (e.g., 44:6). The speaker says that He Himself created the earth and called the heavens into existence. Then He says that He is sent by the Lord God and His Spirit. You have conditioned yourself to read the scriptures a certain way. This is the reason for your “oh boy” remark.Isaiah 48 is a passage that is commonly invoked by trinitarian scholars.
thinker
Oh boy,DID I ASK you to do homework for me?
Good Grief! Like I would want a trinitarian to do homework from the bible for me. That's like asking if I'd like a blind person to drive me home. NO THANK YOU Jack.
I have conditioned myself to read scripture without any preconceived ideas but with an OPEN mind. I am the one going against conformity here!
I asked you a question, which was not meant to be answered from Isaiah alone, but from your view of the entire bible.
Can you or can you not explain WHO YHWH is?
Jodi Lee,
You have indeed conditioned yourself. The Father said that His Son created the heavens and the earth and you deny it. It's like Hebrews chapter one doesn't even exist. I am beginning to think you cut those pages from your Bible. You never engage in exegesis. It's like pulluing teeth. Your method is the “pretext” method. You just take another scripture and pit it against the scripture I give you.I challenge you to a debate on Isaiah chapter 48. Just me and you and Isaiah 48. What do you say?
thinker
LONG before Hebrews WAS EVER written scripture tells us that YHWH created the heavens and the earth. Acts tells us that the FATHER created heaven and earth. So this ONE passage in Hebrews we are some how suppose to believe is speaking of Jesus and not the Father? Even though we have MANY scriptures that tell us that YHWH created the heavens and the earth, THYSELF ALONE, you want us to believe that Hebrews is now telling us those other scriptures are LIES?That is PURE idiotic! The passage is speaking of a person who does NOT change. Christ in fact DID change, or do you want to DENY that Christ is the firstborn of the dead, a man who went from mortal to immortal?
Your doctrine = antichrist
You say that Jesus Christ does not change, therefore you must deny the fact that he aged and died. You must also deny the fact that he went from mortal flesh to immortal flesh.
Jack, DON'T you TEACH that Jesus gave up his eternal god position to become a human being? You don't consider that to be a CHANGE? Your doctrine is so screwy….talk about contradiction! Truly interesting that you believe that Jesus is the person who does not change, but at the same time you believe that he gave up his immortality to come down and be man's savior.
Hebrews 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, 2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
This is clear that Jesus is neither the God of old, or the person who spoke to the prophets in the OT. YHWH was the person who spoke to the prophets, we are told that specifically many times over in the OT. This means that Jesus is NOT YHWH, only the Father is.
Ex 3:15 And God saith again unto Moses, `Thus dost thou say unto the sons of Israel, Jehovah, God of your fathers, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this [is] My name — to the age, and this My memorial, to generation — generation.
Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said to them, `Do ye not because of this go astray, not knowing the Writings, nor the power of God? 25 for when they may rise out of the dead, they neither marry nor are they given in marriage, but are as messengers who are in the heavens. 26 `And concerning the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the Book of Moses (at The Bush), how God spake to him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; 27 he is not the God of dead men, but a God of living men; ye then go greatly astray.'
Acts 3: 13 `The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, did glorify His child Jesus, whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, he having given judgment to release [him],
Jesus is the CHILD of YHWH, he is NOT YHWH but YHWH's CHILD!!
Recall Exodus 3:15 YHWH spoke to Moses, and told Moses that
Deut 18:15`A prophet out of thy midst, out of thy brethren, like to me, doth Jehovah thy God raise up to thee — unto him ye hearken;
Ac 3:22 `For Moses, indeed, unto the fathers said — A prophet to you shall the Lord your God raise up out of your brethren, like to me; him shall ye hear in all things, as many as he may speak unto you;
Ac 7:37 this is the Moses who did say to the sons of Israel: A prophet to you shall the Lord your God raise up out of your brethren, like to me, him shall ye hear.
Hebrews 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, 2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
Clearly YHWH is the Father, and Jesus is NOT!
Jodi Lee said:
Quote LONG before Hebrews WAS EVER written scripture tells us that YHWH created the heavens and the earth. Acts tells us that the FATHER created heaven and earth. So this ONE passage in Hebrews we are some how suppose to believe is speaking of Jesus and not the Father?
So the book of Hebrews was not inspired? And there is more than one passage that says that Christ is the Creator,John 1:1-3:
Quote In the beginning wast he Word and the Word was with God, and what God was the Word was….All things came into being THROUGH Him. And without Him NOT ONE THING came into being that has come into being….And the Word was made FLESH and,
Colossians 1:15-17:
Quote Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created BY him, and FOR him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
WHEN YOU EDIT YOUR BIBLE DO YOU USE WHITE OUT OR SCISSORS?
The old testament scriptures say that YHWH created with His own hands. The new testament scriptures say that JESUS WAS GOD'S HANDS. SO “PROBLEM” SOLVED!
Jodi Lee:
Quote The passage is speaking of a person who does NOT change. The passage is speaking of a person who does NOT change. Christ in fact DID change, or do you want to DENY that Christ is the firstborn of the dead, a man who went from mortal to immortal? God can change. It is only in reference to His PROMISES that He cannot change. He said to Moses, “I will become what I am becoming.” This is change!
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdfThere is not one scripture which says that God cannot change in the sense you think. In fact, in the old testament we see that YHWH learned
Quote 16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
YHWH acquired knowledge. It says that He went down to see the situation in Sodom and Gomorrah if the outcry there was valid. He said He would KNOW as the result of His investigation.
NEB: “I am resolved to know the truth.”
YHWH went down to Sodom and Gomorrah to acquire information. Upon acquiring the information He obtained knowledge. I hate to have to tell you but THIS IS CHANGE!.
We know that the Father knows all things and need not acquire knowledge. But the one who is identified as YHWH in this narrative acquired knowledge. Therefore, YHWH in Genesis 18 is Jesus because He did not know all things. Are you going to argue away Genesis 18 too?
I repeat that there is no scripture which says that YHWH cannot change in the sense you say. When He said “I change not” it is in reference to His promises only. If God cannot change then there would be no such thing as a NEW covenant.
I'll make a deal with you. Since you reject the new teatament I will prove the trinity from the old from now on.
thinker
Hi TT,
Is there one verse in scripture that SAYS JESUS IS THE CREATOR?Or is your fostering of confusion your means of justifying your belief in what is NOT written?
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 24 2009,11:43) Jodi Lee said: Quote LONG before Hebrews WAS EVER written scripture tells us that YHWH created the heavens and the earth. Acts tells us that the FATHER created heaven and earth. So this ONE passage in Hebrews we are some how suppose to believe is speaking of Jesus and not the Father?
So the book of Hebrews was not inspired? And there is more than one passage that says that Christ is the Creator,John 1:1-3:
Quote In the beginning wast he Word and the Word was with God, and what God was the Word was….All things came into being THROUGH Him. And without Him NOT ONE THING came into being that has come into being….And the Word was made FLESH and,
Colossians 1:15-17:
Quote Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created BY him, and FOR him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
WHEN YOU EDIT YOUR BIBLE DO YOU USE WHITE OUT OR SCISSORS?
The old testament scriptures say that YHWH created with His own hands. The new testament scriptures say that JESUS WAS GOD'S HANDS. SO “PROBLEM” SOLVED!
Jodi Lee:
Quote The passage is speaking of a person who does NOT change. The passage is speaking of a person who does NOT change. Christ in fact DID change, or do you want to DENY that Christ is the firstborn of the dead, a man who went from mortal to immortal? God can change. It is only in reference to His PROMISES that He cannot change. He said to Moses, “I will become what I am becoming.” This is change!
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdfThere is not one scripture which says that God cannot change in the sense you think. In fact, in the old testament we see that YHWH learned
Quote 16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
YHWH acquired knowledge. It says that He went down to see the situation in Sodom and Gomorrah if the outcry there was valid. He said He would KNOW as the result of His investigation.
NEB: “I am resolved to know the truth.”
YHWH went down to Sodom and Gomorrah to acquire information. Upon acquiring the information He obtained knowledge. I hate to have to tell you but THIS IS CHANGE!.
We know that the Father knows all things and need not acquire knowledge. But the one who is identified as YHWH in this narrative acquired knowledge. Therefore, YHWH in Genesis 18 is Jesus because He did not know all things. Are you going to argue away Genesis 18 too?
I repeat that there is no scripture which says that YHWH cannot change in the sense you say. When He said “I change not” it is in reference to His promises only. If God cannot change then there would be no such thing as a NEW covenant.
I'll make a deal with you. Since you reject the new teatament I will prove the trinity from the old from now on.
thinker
How do you go from me saying that Hebrews was not written before the OT, to insinuating that I must mean it's not inspired?Holy Cow, that's extraordinarily ridiculous!!
The Hebrew people fully understood from scripture and from tradition that YHWH created the heavens and the earth and it was YHWH who promised to bring forth a Messiah that would be unto Him a Son. When you read Hebrews knowing this long lived FACT the Hebrews knew, they would obviously understand that the author was speaking of YHWH.
Hebrews 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, 2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
3 who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest, 4 having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'
6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him — all messengers of God;'
7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;' 8 and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age; a scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of thy reign; 9 thou didst love righteousness, and didst hate lawlessness; because of this did He anoint thee — God, thy God — with oil of gladness above thy partners;'
10 and, `Thou,at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens; 11 these shall perish, and Thou dost remain, and all, as a garment, shall become old, 12 and as a mantle Thou shall roll them together, and they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.'
13 And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?' 14 are they not all spirits of service — for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?
Scriptures says that YHWH created it THYSELF ALONE, that apparently does not mean anything to you.
Notice what is SAID HERE, “they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.'
Jesus was changed he went from death to life, from mortal to immortal, OR DO YOU DENY that Jack? However YHWH art the same His YEARS do not fail Him. One day is as a thousand and a thousand as one day, YHWH is not constrained to TIME as MAN is. The Spirit of the Father LIVES in Jesus, it is the Father's Spirit that holds Jesus's LIFE. Jesus is a creation he is flesh and bones, and he has immortality through the Spirit of the Father that dwells in him.
By the CHRIST, the human seed of David ALL things were created BY and FOR. Heaven and Earth were created FOR and THROUGH YHWH's knowledge of the heavenly man.
THE CHRIST is a man not a god son, or YHWH, and YHWH made heaven and earth FOR and THROUGH the man. It is a complete misunderstanding to say that the CHRIST that was to come created heaven and earth.
Does not YHWH know what is going to happen before it does? YHWH certainly KNEW what was going on before He came down to see Sodom and Gomorrah, the point was God was WATCHING and TAKING NOTICE and that which people do He makes an account of.
YHWH did not CHANGE and decide to make a NEW covenant, are you kidding me? From the VERY beginning He knew there would be TWO covenants. The entire world is under the DIRECTION and WILL of the Father. In the beginning the Father had a plan a plan to make man know that without His Spirit man is NOT worthy of life. Man must learn to learn from his Creator. Man must learn not to trust in himself but in His Creator, the Father YHWH. Jesus DID this and his reward was receiving the honorable position that was originally given to Adam.
YHWH's PROMISES do not change, and neither does YHWH change into a form capable of sinning and dieing, as Jesus was. YHWH created heaven and earth for immortal men……..FOR and THROUGH CHRIST! Scripture NEVER says that YHWH created heaven and earth For and THROUGH a god son.
Thinker……….. Where is says “CHRIST”, was that ROCK that followed Israel in the wilderness, The WORD (CHRISTOS) Means the Anointing , you see GOD anointed People like MOSES and the 75 Elders, and Anointed Angles also, with (HIS) Spirit and this was the ROCK that lead Israel it was GOD'S SPIRIT at work in others, and so it is with Jesus It is the Anointing the Christos, He is the Anointed ONE, But you try to make Him the GOD that anoints HIM. There is (NO) TRIUNE GOD SYSTEM at ALL. There is only (ONE) TRUE GOD. Your confusing the anointing with the Person who Has it. GOD was (IN) Jesus How by the CHRISTOS or ANOINTING, that is why Jesus is CALL THE CHRIST OF GOD.
love and peace………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 24 2009,12:16) Thinker……….. Where is says “CHRIST”, was that ROCK that followed Israel in the wilderness, The WORD (CHRISTOS) Means the Anointing , you see GOD anointed People like MOSES and the 75 Elders, and Anointed Angles also, with (HIS) Spirit and this was the ROCK that lead Israel it was GOD'S SPIRIT at work in others, and so it is with Jesus It is the Anointing the Christos, He is the Anointed ONE, But you try to make Him the GOD that anoints HIM. There is (NO) TRIUNE GOD SYSTEM at ALL. There is only (ONE) TRUE GOD. Your confusing the anointing with the Person who Has it. GOD was (IN) Jesus How by the CHRISTOS or ANOINTING, that is why Jesus is CALL THE CHRIST OF GOD. love and peace………………gene
GeneI have shown you this before.
Why don't you give us another example in scriptures where the word “Christ” is not referring to Jesus in the NT!
Your “Unitarian” theorys has many contradictions!
WJ
Jodi Lee said:
Quote How do you go from me saying that Hebrews was not written before the OT, to insinuating that I must mean it's not inspired? Holy Cow, that's extraordinarily ridiculous!! Jodi Lee,
Note what you said,Quote …this ONE passage in Hebrews we are some how suppose to believe is speaking of Jesus and not the Father?
You rhetorically asked, “We are somehow to believe is speaking of Jesus and not the Father?” I said before that you do not believe the Father and this statement proves what I said. It clearly says that the Father was speaking TO THE SON. Okay, so maybe you do “believe” Hebrews is inspired. But you certainly do not believe the Father who you say is your God!Jodi Lee:
Quote Hebrews 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, 2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
Did you notice that God created the “ages” THROUGH His Son?Jodi Lee:
Quote For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'
I fail to see what you think this proves. I have already indicated that Christ was begotten at His exaltation and that the “begetting” had nothing to do with His supposed origin. Note carefully that it is the consequence of Christ's exaltation that God said, “I WILL BE a Father to Him.” Therefore, Christ's name as “Son” has to do with His office as Mediator and says nothing about His supposed origin. How could God himself attribute the creation to the Son if the He had been created? Jodi Lee:
Quote Notice what is SAID HERE, “they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.'Jesus was changed he went from death to life, from mortal to immortal, OR DO YOU DENY that Jack? JODI PLEASE! THE FATHER WAS SPEAKING TO THE SON!
Quote 8But TO THE SON He [the Father] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but THOU art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
The Father said TO THE SON, “You are the same and your years shall not fail.” This is because He has been exalted and has put on immortality. His years CANNOT FAIL,
Quote Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever (Hebrews 13:8). My Lord Sis! Why do you apply to the Father what He Himself TO THE SON!
Jodi Lee:
Quote Does not YHWH know what is going to happen before it does? YHWH certainly KNEW what was going on before He came down, the point was God was WATCHING and TAKING NOTICE and that which people do He makes an account of. I have said that YHWH the Father knows all thing. But YHWH Jesus did not know all things.
YHWH [Jesus] said,
Quote For NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me (Genesis 22:12)
and,Quote They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I KNEW IT NOT (Hosea 8:4) It is YHWH Jesus speaking in both these statements. It cannot be the Father speaking for the Father knows all things. YHWH Jesus did not know all things. Therefore, it was YHWH Jesus who tested Abraham to find out that he feared God. And it was YHWH Jesus who said, “I knew it not” in reference to Israel setting up kings. NOTE: YHWH Jesus knows all things now because He was exalted.
Jodi Lee:
Quote YHWH's PROMISES do not change, and neither does YHWH change into a form capable of sinning and dieing, as Jesus was. YHWH did change and take on human form. Paul explicitly said the Jesus subsisted in God's form and then took the form of man (Philippians 2). YHWH appeared to Moses in THE FORM of a fire in a burning bush.
YHWH cannot change in reference to a word He has spoken. The Bible no where says that YHWH cannot change in every way conceivable. This is the ancient Gnostic theory of God's being.
thinker
Hi TT,
Does scripture say God WAS a burning bush or does it not say an angel spoke for Him?
You cannot grasp such things can you and think whoever or whatever speaks for God MUST BE GOD?Wake up.
WJ………..What does this mean to you ?………THE CHRIST OF GOD. I'll try to keep it simple The word CHRIST is synonymous with ANOINTING with (HOLY SPIRIT) It the same thing. That is HOW the SPIRIT gets into Us, we are (ANOINTED WITH IT). AS JESUS WAS AND IS> LET THIS MIND BE IN YOU THAT WAS IN CHRIST (the anointed) JESUS. IT was GOD HIMSELF who was following ISREAL in the Wilderness through HIS ANOINTING SPIRIT> Do you see how this False Trinitarian teaching has clouded up the teachings of GOD and Jesus and the Apostles. WJ it is WRONG come out of it brother.
Peace and love………………………..gene
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 25 2009,04:35) Jodi Lee said: Quote How do you go from me saying that Hebrews was not written before the OT, to insinuating that I must mean it's not inspired? Holy Cow, that's extraordinarily ridiculous!! Jodi Lee,
Note what you said,Quote …this ONE passage in Hebrews we are some how suppose to believe is speaking of Jesus and not the Father?
You rhetorically asked, “We are somehow to believe is speaking of Jesus and not the Father?” I said before that you do not believe the Father and this statement proves what I said. It clearly says that the Father was speaking TO THE SON. Okay, so maybe you do “believe” Hebrews is inspired. But you certainly do not believe the Father who you say is your God!Jodi Lee:
Quote Hebrews 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, 2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
Did you notice that God created the “ages” THROUGH His Son?Jodi Lee:
Quote For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'
I fail to see what you think this proves. I have already indicated that Christ was begotten at His exaltation and that the “begetting” had nothing to do with His supposed origin. Note carefully that it is the consequence of Christ's exaltation that God said, “I WILL BE a Father to Him.” Therefore, Christ's name as “Son” has to do with His office as Mediator and says nothing about His supposed origin. How could God himself attribute the creation to the Son if the He had been created? Jodi Lee:
Quote Notice what is SAID HERE, “they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.'Jesus was changed he went from death to life, from mortal to immortal, OR DO YOU DENY that Jack? JODI PLEASE! THE FATHER WAS SPEAKING TO THE SON!
Quote 8But TO THE SON He [the Father] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but THOU art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
The Father said TO THE SON, “You are the same and your years shall not fail.” This is because He has been exalted and has put on immortality. His years CANNOT FAIL,
Quote Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever (Hebrews 13:8). My Lord Sis! Why do you apply to the Father what He Himself TO THE SON!
Jodi Lee:
Quote Does not YHWH know what is going to happen before it does? YHWH certainly KNEW what was going on before He came down, the point was God was WATCHING and TAKING NOTICE and that which people do He makes an account of. I have said that YHWH the Father knows all thing. But YHWH Jesus did not know all things.
YHWH [Jesus] said,
Quote For NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me (Genesis 22:12)
and,Quote They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I KNEW IT NOT (Hosea 8:4) It is YHWH Jesus speaking in both these statements. It cannot be the Father speaking for the Father knows all things. YHWH Jesus did not know all things. Therefore, it was YHWH Jesus who tested Abraham to find out that he feared God. And it was YHWH Jesus who said, “I knew it not” in reference to Israel setting up kings. NOTE: YHWH Jesus knows all things now because He was exalted.
Jodi Lee:
Quote YHWH's PROMISES do not change, and neither does YHWH change into a form capable of sinning and dieing, as Jesus was. YHWH did change and take on human form. Paul explicitly said the Jesus subsisted in God's form and then took the form of man (Philippians 2). YHWH appeared to Moses in THE FORM of a fire in a burning bush.
YHWH cannot change in reference to a word He has spoken. The Bible no where says that YHWH cannot change in every way conceivable. This is the ancient Gnostic theory of God's being.
thinker
The ORIGIN of CHRIST is known, Christ is the MAN of the seed of David. Since Jesus is the CHRIST, then obviously the origin of the Christ comes from Mary's WOMB!YHWH created heaven and earth THROUGH CHRIST, Christ origin comes long after heaven and earth was created, so obviously when YHWH said that He created heaven and earth THYSELF ALONE, and did it THROUGH the CHRIST, this would mean that YHWH created heaven and earth BECAUSE OF CHRIST.
Colossians 1:12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the lig
ht. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have edemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.WHO is the Son of God’s love, some god son? Scripture is specifically talking about the son who died on the cross, the human being. Therefore the following should be read keeping that IN MIND,
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
For by CHRIST, the human being born of the seed of David, all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible,……..all things were created through CHRIST and FOR CHRIST!
Meaning all things were created because of Christ and for Christ.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
ALL the FULLNESS should dwell IN the FIRSTBORN of the DEAD! ALL the fullness in the beginning of creation, all that was created, did not come into existence by a god son, but by the coming of Christ, the firstborn of the dead. Who has been made King over the earth? Not some god son, but the Man, Jesus of Nazareth that came from Mary’s womb.
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