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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 19 2009,11:16) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,19:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 19 2009,10:44) Hi Jack Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,16:57) Jodi's view that death means annihilation necessarily infers that Christ Himself was not risen from sheol. For if His soul was annihilated then another soul would have taken its place in the body in the tomb. That soul would not have been the soul that was born of Mary nor that suffered and died because the soul of Jesus no longer existed.
Good point!WJ
Keith,
I think that Jodi is really struggling here. She says that it is the SAME Jesus that was raised from the dead. But at the same time she says that death means “to cease to exist.” It doesn't work. She can't have it both ways.Btw, you beat me to it with the vision of John in Revelation 6. Those souls indeed cried with a loud voice asking God to avenge them. They were told that they should “rest a little whil longer.” They were in a place of rest awaiting to be avenged.
Jesus inferred that the patriarchs were ALIVE because God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING. Jodi Lee is in line with the Sadducees while Jesus and Paul were not.
Jack
Hi JackI think that this also is related to the fact that Jodi and Gene do not percieve that men or demons are sentient spirit beings, but rather Spirit is just “thoughts” or “intellect” that float around in the air!
Most of this teaching I think is from the “Brenner” guy”!
WJ
There is nothing new under the sun. No matter where Jodi and Gene get their ideas they are in line with the Sadducees. So it's nothing new. Since Jesus and Paul did not side with the Sadducees one would think that this would make Jodi and Gene a little nervous.Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 19 2009,08:42) Jodi Lee said: Quote So you deny the scriptures that say that the Father created the heavens and the earth? Yeap! I deny that the Father created the heavens and the earth. According to the Father Himself the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of the Son's hands. You cited Psalm 102 as a “proot text” that the Father created.
However, Hebrews 1:8-10 clearly shows that the Father Himself attributed the creation to the Son,
8But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”10And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS;The Father Himself applies Psalm 102 to the Son. If the Father gives the Son the credit then I don't have a problem giving Him the credit too.
We notice in Isaiah 48:12-16 that the Creator is distinguished from God,
12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
13MY HAND also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
14All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
15I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
There it is! The Father Himself applied Psalm 102 to the Son which means that the Son shares the name YHWH with the Father.
And in Isaiah 48 the Creator said that the heavens and the earth are the work of “My hands” and then distinguished Himself from God saying, “I am sent by the Lord God and His Spirit.”
You say that the Father is your God. So how can you call Him a liar?
thinker
Jack you are truly mistaken,Let's start with this,
Matthew 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
Ps 8:6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,
Heb 2:7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands.
Pslam110:1 A Psalm of David. The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: `Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.'
What WORK OF the Father's is Jesus to have DOMINION over? What WORK of the Father's Hands did the Father set Jesus to be over?
Notice how the Kingdom that is to come is established through the will of the Father. Jesus is given dominion over earth so that he can accomplish His Father's will.
2Ki 19:15 And Hezekiah prayeth before Jehovah, and saith, `O Jehovah, God of Israel, inhabiting the cherubs, Thou art God Himself — Thyself alone — to all the kingdoms of the earth: Thou hast made the heavens and the earth.
2Ki 19:19 And now, O Jehovah our God, save us, we pray Thee, out of his hand, and know do all kingdoms of the earth that Thou art Jehovah God — Thyself alone.'
Psalms 72:18 Blessed is Jehovah God, God of Israel, He alone is doing wonders, 19 And blessed is the Name of His honour to the age, And the whole earth is filled with His honour. Amen, and amen! 20 The prayers of David son of Jesse have been ended.
Isa 37:16`Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel, inhabiting the cherubs, Thou art God Himself — Thyself alone — to all kingdoms of the earth, Thou hast made the heavens and the earth.
1Ki 18:36 And it cometh to pass, at the going up of the [evening-]present, that Elijah the prophet cometh nigh and saith, `Jehovah, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, to-day let it be known that Thou art God in Israel, and I Thy servant, that by Thy word I have done the whole of these things;
Ac 3:22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
Ac 7:37 “This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.'
Psalms16:8 I did place Jehovah before me continually, Because — at my right hand I am not moved. 9 Therefore hath my heart been glad, And my honour doth rejoice, Also my flesh dwelleth confidently: 10 For Thou dost not leave my soul to Sheol, Nor givest thy saintly one to see corruption.
Acts 2:22 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
YHWH ALONE is clearly shown to be the Creator of heaven and earth. YHWH is known to be the God of the fathers, and He promised these fathers that he would raise up a human to be His Son and who would not see corruption, but would become an eternal king.
Isaiah 43:14 Thus said Jehovah, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: `For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And caused bars to descend — all of them, And the Chaldeans, whose song [is] in the ships. 15 I [am] Jehovah, your Holy One, Creator of Israel, your King.' 16 Thus said Jehovah, Who is giving in the sea a way, And in the strong waters a path.
Isaiah 45:5 I am Jehovah, and there is none else, Except Me there is no God, I gird thee, and thou hast not known Me. 6 So that they know from the rising of the sun, And from the west, that there is none besides Me, I am Jehovah, and there is none else, 7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' 8 Drop, ye heavens, from above, And clouds do cause righteousness to flow, Earth openeth, and they are fruitful, Salvation and righteousness spring up together, I, Jehovah, have prepared it. 9 Wo to him who is striving with his Former, (A potsherd with potsherds of the ground!) Doth clay say to its Framer, `What dost thou?' And thy work, `He hath no hands?' 10 Wo to him who is saying to a father, `What dost thou beget?' Or to a wife, `What dost thou bring forth? 11 Thus said Jehovah, The Holy One of Israel, and his Former: Ask Me of the things coming concerning My sons, Yea, concerning the work of My hands, ye command Me.' 12 I made earth, and man on it prepared, I — My hands stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded. 13 I have stirred him up in righteousness, And all his ways I make straight, He doth build My city, and My captivity doth send out, Not for price, nor for bribe, said Jehovah of Hosts.
YHWH made earth and MAN and He stirred up righteousness. Jesus DID nothing of himself, he grew in the grace and knowledge of His Father, and learned obedience through the Father. YHWH is the Holy One of Israel and He is his Former, meaning of course that YHWH is the Former of Israel, the people who are counted worthy as Sons through Faith.
Isaiah 48:9 For My name's sake I defer Mine anger, And My praise I restrain for thee, So as not to cut thee off. 10 Lo, I have refined thee, and not with silver, I have chosen thee in a furnace of affliction. 11 For My sake, for Mine own sake, I do [it], For how is it polluted? And Mine honour to another I give not. 12 Hearken to me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called one, I am He, I am first, and I am last; 13 Also, My hand hath founded earth, And My right hand stretched out the heavens, I am calling unto them, they stand together. 14 Be gathered all of you, and hear, Who among them did declare these things? Jehovah hath loved him, He doth His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm is on the Chaldeans. 15 I — I have spoken, yea, I have called him, I have brought him in, And he hath made prosperous his way.
This shows once again that it was indeed YHWH who ALONE created heaven and earth. YHWH is Israels salvation, from the the first to the last, and we know that He has appointed His Son to have authority over man's salvation.
John 17:2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent
Jesus is NOT YHWH the ONLY True God, he is in fact a creation of YHWH!
Jodi………Amen, Amen. These deluded Trinitarians and Preexistences Just can't understand these things.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Psalms 102:25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. 27 But You are the same, And Your years will have no end. 28 The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.”
Hebrews 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, 2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
JESUS WAS NOT the God of OLD, that is CLEARLY his Father! Jesus the MAN, is appointed HEIR of all things. Adam had been originally appointed the RULER over earth, he lost this position and Jesus took his firstborn birth right.
3who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest, 4 having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'
6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him — all messengers of God;'
7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;' 8 and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age; a scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of thy reign; 9 thou didst love righteousness, and didst hate lawlessness; because of this did He anoint thee — God, thy God — with oil of gladness above thy partners;'
10 and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens; 11 these shall perish, and Thou dost remain, and all, as a garment, shall become old, 12 and as a mantle Thou shall roll them together, and they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.'
13 And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?' 14 are they not all spirits of service — for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?
Clearly verse 10-12 is speaking of YHWH!
YHWH has NEVER changed!! Shall we say that Jesus has never changed? Shall we DENY that Jesus came in the flesh, died and was raised receiving immortality? Shall we not say that Jesus was in a physical position where indeed his YEARS COULD FAIL him? Did Jesus NOT have the ability to grow old?
Scripture says that Jesus, “sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest”
2Sa 22:14 Thunder from the heavens doth Jehovah, And the Most High giveth forth His voice.
Ps 18:13 And thunder in the heavens doth Jehovah, And the Most High giveth forth His voice, Hail and coals of fire.
Psalms 47:2 For Jehovah Most High is fearful, A great king over all the earth. 3 He leadeth peoples under us, and nations under our feet. 4 He doth choose for us our inheritance, The excellency of Jacob that He loves. Selah.
Psalms 83:18 And they know that Thou — (Thy name is Jehovah — by Thyself,) Art the Most High over all the earth!
Ps 97:9 For Thou, Jehovah, [art] Most High over all the earth, Greatly Thou hast been exalted over all gods.
Da 4:25 and they are driving thee away from men, and with the beast of the field is thy dwelling, and the herb as oxen they do cause thee to eat, and by the dew of the heavens they are wetting thee, and seven times do pass over thee, till that thou knowest that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it.
Mr 5:7 and having called with a loud voice, he said, `What — to me and to thee, Jesus, Son of God the Most High? I adjure thee by God, mayest thou not afflict me!'
Clearly Jesus sat down next to YHWH! YHWH is He who is the Most High, Jesus is the Son of the Most High.
Jodi…..It is amazing how when you understand these things how scripture just falls together so easily. Be thankful GOD has Chosen to allow you to see these things , because many don't even have the foggiest idea of these truths as attested by many here. IMO
peace and love to ypou and yours Jodi………………..gene
Thanks so much Gene,
Their opposition always drives me to read many scriptures, and it always turns out that I find something more to prove them wrong, so in away I owe them a lot. They have certainly caused the truth to be that much more clearer for me. Just in the last few days I have really come to find that the belief in the trinity is really something that is truly embarrassing, a belief clearly of the blinded. Their blindness however is serving me well, maybe that is what YHWH had intended. I will be very glad though, when their eyes too will become opened.
Love to you, Jodi
Jodi…….When you post the Spirit of GOD in me identifies exactly with what you are posting, It thrill my very Soul Sis. There was a time when I could quote musch of the bible from memerory , but with age comes some loss of memeory , But the Spirit of GOD in Me does identify with His Words and the soundness of them. Many are decieved and are deluded in their thinking, because they truly do not have a love for the truth, as 2 Ths 2 says. Nearly all have had there first experience with GOD through the false teachings and from early on they fell into that confusion, But GOD is able to bring (ALL) out of that. Problem is those who are comming out of some of these teaching of the TRINITY do not come completely out, They may deny the TRINITY but have not dealt with the rest of there false teachings, Like Jesus preexisting, and the doctrine of devils and demons etc, they don't realize the extent of those false teachings are in their thinking. But it is good that we continue to expose these things and hopefully GOD will allow some to see. Continue to allow the Spirit to guide you into (ALL) truth. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………………………gene
Jodi…….When you post the Spirit of GOD in me identifies exactly with what you are posting, It thrill my very Soul Sis. There was a time when I could quote musch of the bible from memerory , but with age comes some loss of memeory , But the Spirit of GOD in Me does identify with His Words and the soundness of them. Many are decieved and are deluded in their thinking, because they truly do not have a love for the truth, as 2 Ths 2 says. Nearly all have had there first experience with GOD through the false teachings and from early on they fell into that confusion, But GOD is able to bring (ALL) out of that. Problem is those who are comming out of some of these teaching of the TRINITY do not come completely out, They may deny the TRINITY but have not dealt with the rest of there false teachings, Like Jesus preexisting, and the doctrine of devils and demons etc, they don't realize the extent of those false teachings are in their thinking. But it is good that we continue to expose these things and hopefully GOD will allow some to see. Continue to allow the Spirit to guide you into (ALL) truth. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………………………gene
Jodi…….When you post the Spirit of GOD in me identifies exactly with what you are posting, It thrill my very Soul Sis. There was a time when I could quote musch of the bible from memerory , but with age comes some loss of memeory , But the Spirit of GOD in Me does identify with His Words and the soundness of them. Many are decieved and are deluded in their thinking, because they truly do not have a love for the truth, as 2 Ths 2 says. Nearly all have had there first experience with GOD through the false teachings and from early on they fell into that confusion, But GOD is able to bring (ALL) out of that. Problem is those who are comming out of some of these teaching of the TRINITY do not come completely out, They may deny the TRINITY but have not dealt with the rest of there false teachings, Like Jesus preexisting, and the doctrine of devils and demons etc, they don't realize the extent of those false teachings are in their thinking. But it is good that we continue to expose these things and hopefully GOD will allow some to see. Continue to allow the Spirit to guide you into (ALL) truth. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………………………gene
Jodi…….When you post the Spirit of GOD in me identifies exactly with what you are posting, It thrill my very Soul Sis. There was a time when I could quote musch of the bible from memerory , but with age comes some loss of memeory , But the Spirit of GOD in Me does identify with His Words and the soundness of them. Many are decieved and are deluded in their thinking, because they truly do not have a love for the truth, as 2 Ths 2 says. Nearly all have had there first experience with GOD through the false teachings and from early on they fell into that confusion, But GOD is able to bring (ALL) out of that. Problem is those who are comming out of some of these teaching of the TRINITY do not come completely out, They may deny the TRINITY but have not dealt with the rest of there false teachings, Like Jesus preexisting, and the doctrine of devils and demons etc, they don't realize the extent of those false teachings are in their thinking. But it is good that we continue to expose these things and hopefully GOD will allow some to see. Continue to allow the Spirit to guide you into (ALL) truth. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………………………gene
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 19 2009,08:42) Jodi Lee said: Quote So you deny the scriptures that say that the Father created the heavens and the earth? Yeap! I deny that the Father created the heavens and the earth. According to the Father Himself the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of the Son's hands. You cited Psalm 102 as a “proot text” that the Father created.
However, Hebrews 1:8-10 clearly shows that the Father Himself attributed the creation to the Son,
8But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”10And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS;The Father Himself applies Psalm 102 to the Son. If the Father gives the Son the credit then I don't have a problem giving Him the credit too.
We notice in Isaiah 48:12-16 that the Creator is distinguished from God,
12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
13MY HAND also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
14All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
15I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
There it is! The Father Himself applied Psalm 102 to the Son which means that the Son shares the name YHWH with the Father.
And in Isaiah 48 the Creator said that the heavens and the earth are the work of “My hands” and then distinguished Himself from God saying, “I am sent by the Lord God and His Spirit.”
You say that the Father is your God. So how can you call Him a liar?
thinker
As a trinitarian you can't Deny The Father created the heavens and the earth, if Jesus and The Father are one in the same.Even if The Father attributed it to The Son, they are not seperate beings….
If I kick a ball, does it mean that I didn't kick it? Only my foot kicked it?
No, my foot is part of me, so if my foot kicks something, it's being kicked by ME.
So even tho The Father attributes creation to The Son, The Son came from The Father and is the SAME being…so Denying he created all things is Denying scripture.
Yes there is a verse where YHWH said The Son laid the foundations, but there are plenty others where YHWH said HE laid the foundations ALSO….
So it is blasphemy if you Deny The Father, TT
Jodi Lee said:
Quote Jack you are truly mistaken, Let's start with this,
Matthew 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
Jodi,
First, you did not exegete Hebrews 1:8-10 at all. You invoked other scriptures and pit them against Hebrews. The kingdom has been delivered over to the Son. Therefore, it is the Son's Kingdom. One day He will give it back on His own volition. It must be on His own volition because the Father cannot break His promises. He is bound by oath. So the Son will give back the kingdom on His own volition. Jesus said to pray “Our Father…thy kingdom come” BEFORE He inherited the kingdom.The kingdom is the Son's by inheritance. Paul said that we have been translated into the kingdom of HIS DEAR SON.
Jodi Lee:
Quote Ps 8:6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet
This is correct but not as you apply it. The Father attributed the creation to the Son. This is undeniable.You seem to have overlooked verses Hebrews 1:1-2:
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us BY HIS SON, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM also He made the worlds;Note that it says that in the last days God spoke “BY His Son.” Now who did the actual speaking? It was not the Father's own tongue. It was Christ's own tongue. The same method was also employed in the creation. It says, “BY Whom He also made the worlds.”
So it was NOT the Father's own hands in the creating any more than it was the Father's own tongue in the speaking. Both the speaking and the creating was BY CHRIST'S OWN ACTIVITY.
The Creator in Isaiah 48:12-16 CLEARLY said that He was sent by Jehovah. Therefore, the Creator is distinguished from Jehovah.
So it is you who is “truly wrong.” Hebrews 1 says that it was BY the Son that the Father both spoke and created. And verses 8-10 say that the Father attributed the creation to the Son's own Hands. “And the heavens are the work of your hands.”
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 23 2009,05:54) Jodi Lee said: Quote Jack you are truly mistaken, Let's start with this,
Matthew 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
Jodi,
First, you did not exegete Hebrews 1:8-10 at all. You invoked other scriptures and pit them against Hebrews. The kingdom has been delivered over to the Son. Therefore, it is the Son's Kingdom. One day He will give it back on His own volition. It must be on His own volition because the Father cannot break His promises. He is bound by oath. So the Son will give back the kingdom on His own volition. Jesus said to pray “Our Father…thy kingdom come” BEFORE He inherited the kingdom.The kingdom is the Son's by inheritance. Paul said that we have been translated into the kingdom of HIS DEAR SON.
Jodi Lee:
Quote Ps 8:6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet
This is correct but not as you apply it. The Father attributed the creation to the Son. This is undeniable.You seem to have overlooked verses Hebrews 1:1-2:
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us BY HIS SON, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM also He made the worlds;Note that it says that in the last days God spoke “BY His Son.” Now who did the actual speaking? It was not the Father's own tongue. It was Christ's own tongue. The same method was also employed in the creation. It says, “BY Whom He also made the worlds.”
So it was NOT the Father's own hands in the creating any more than it was the Father's own tongue in the speaking. Both the speaking and the creating was BY CHRIST'S OWN ACTIVITY.
The Creator in Isaiah 48:12-16 CLEARLY said that He was sent by Jehovah. Therefore, the Creator is distinguished from Jehovah.
So it is you who is “truly wrong.” Hebrews 1 says that it was BY the Son that the Father both spoke and created. And verses 8-10 say that the Father attributed the creation to the Son's own Hands. “And the heavens are the work of your hands.”
thinker
So if I created a computer, and give it the software for a calculator…when it computers 2+2….That didn't come from me? It came from The Computer???I mean the way you present this TT is as, Jesus created all things on his own accord…but it was The Father who created all things THROUGH Jesus….
The point I was trying to make was not to deny Jesus's credit for creation…it was to make sure you do not disrespect The Father by stealing his credit as well.
Truth be told, both Jesus and The Father should be credited for creation, for The Father made it so when he didn't have to.
Rokkaman said:
Quote I mean the way you present this TT is as, Jesus created all things on his own accord…but it was The Father who created all things THROUGH Jesus… RM,
The Father created THROUGH the Son. The Son did not create through the Father. Hebrews 1 says that God spoke BY the Son. It was the Son's own mouth that spoke. In the same manner God created BY the Son. But it was the Son's own hands that did the work. The Father said so.I believe the Father.
thinker
Rokkaman said:
Quote Truth be told, both Jesus and The Father should be credited for creation, for The Father made it so when he didn't have to. In the new testament the Father credits the Son with the creation. On this I will hang my hat. I have seen successful husbands give their wives all the credit for their success. The Father gives the credit to the Son.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 23 2009,06:27) Hi TT,
And you should believe the God of Jesus and his brothers.
So I should not believe the Father?
thinker
Hi TT,
Do you not fellowship with the Father and the Son in the Spirit of God?
Abide in scripture[2jn]Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 23 2009,05:54) Jodi Lee said: Quote Jack you are truly mistaken, Let's start with this,
Matthew 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
Jodi,
First, you did not exegete Hebrews 1:8-10 at all. You invoked other scriptures and pit them against Hebrews. The kingdom has been delivered over to the Son. Therefore, it is the Son's Kingdom. One day He will give it back on His own volition. It must be on His own volition because the Father cannot break His promises. He is bound by oath. So the Son will give back the kingdom on His own volition. Jesus said to pray “Our Father…thy kingdom come” BEFORE He inherited the kingdom.The kingdom is the Son's by inheritance. Paul said that we have been translated into the kingdom of HIS DEAR SON.
Jodi Lee:
Quote Ps 8:6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet
This is correct but not as you apply it. The Father attributed the creation to the Son. This is undeniable.You seem to have overlooked verses Hebrews 1:1-2:
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us BY HIS SON, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM also He made the worlds;Note that it says that in the last days God spoke “BY His Son.” Now who did the actual speaking? It was not the Father's own tongue. It was Christ's own tongue. The same method was also employed in the creation. It says, “BY Whom He also made the worlds.”
So it was NOT the Father's own hands in the creating any more than it was the Father's own tongue in the speaking. Both the speaking and the creating was BY CHRIST'S OWN ACTIVITY.
The Creator in Isaiah 48:12-16 CLEARLY said that He was sent by Jehovah. Therefore, the Creator is distinguished from Jehovah.
So it is you who is “truly wrong.” Hebrews 1 says that it was BY the Son that the Father both spoke and created. And verses 8-10 say that the Father attributed the creation to the Son's own Hands. “And the heavens are the work of your hands.”
thinker
Oh boy,Could you explain to me WHO is YHWH, is He the Father of Jesus and Jesus? How do you define YHWH?
I would like to know the answer to that before I continue with our discussion.
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