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We keep going around in circle here Jack,
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.
Jesus was obviously quoting his Father when he said “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
The disciples believed the scripture that Jesus quoted. It all makes complete sense given the fact that YHWH SAID that He would not allow His Holy One to see corruption in the OT, and then we see in fact several times that the Father raised Jesus from the dead, with NO mention of Jesus playing a part ONE single time.
Jesus SHOWED that he was the Christ when he became the one to fulfill the promise the Father had made, which was that He would raise Jesus from death.
thinker…….If Jesus didn't lie about raising (himself) up, the he would have had to lie about being (DEAD) because scripture says the DEAD KNOW NOTHING, IN THE DAY THEY DIE THERE THOUGHT PARISH. So pick (YOUR) truths. Is it one or the other. You
Trinitarians just cant realize the (God the FATHER) was really (IN) Jesus, and He considered Jesus' body a temple He was dwelling in. That is why (It was god the father that spoke through Jesus' mouth first person) destory this temple He was in and in three days (I) GOD will raise (IT) Jesus' body UP. There are at least six places in scripture that plainly states (GOD THE FATHER) RAISED JESUS UP. Jesus' was truly dead not half dead as you teach. Don't you believe Jesus own words “(I WAS (DEAD) AND NOW AM ALIVE FOR EVERMORE)”. Why do you trinitarians continue to try to make Jesus and the word of GOD a LIE? IMOgene
Scripture is clear that the person who sins DIES, their soul or LIFE ceases to exist. The reason WHY God DESTROYS there LIFE is because He wants to STOP SIN, He does not want sin to remain. When a person dies the BRAIN stops functioning and decomposes. The brain is where people THINK, it is where SIN LIVES in a person. Sin dwells in the mind that lives in the brain, destroy the body and you destroy the mind. How exactly is a person rewarded or punished when they don't have a brain?
Genesis 6:6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Scripture shows that God wants to destroy MAN! Which when you destroy the body, you do just that, you stop their entire existence. Man's spirit is said to return to God, it is not said to receive a reward or a punishment. Man's spirit is never said to receive a reward or punishment immediately after death.
Daniel 12:2`And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during.
Reward or punishment is clearly shown to be placed upon a person during the RESURRECTION.
YHWH does NOT want to look upon sin, He wants it to not exist. The point of the flood was to show that YHWH WILL not tolerate wickedness He does not want it to exist anymore. Complete foolishness to teach that YHWH wants to keep sinful minds alive in some underground realm. That idea is PURE PAGAN, and it was created by IGNORANT people who didn't have any idea of where the MIND of man has it's life and existence….IN THE BODY!
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,19:28) Jodi Lee said: Quote Jack, let's stick with the main point here. Jesus was begotten. He was TO BE a son, he wasn't always in existence. He came into existence when he was born from Mary, however he was clearly foreknown from the beginning before the world was, and as we know YHWH created all things by His knowledge of him and He created all things for him, that he would rule over an earth of peace and harmony. The Father MADE Jesus both Lord and Christ. Jodi Lee,
Yeah! Let's stick to the main point. The point is that He was EXALTED and that He was begotten WHEN He was exalted. His name as “Son” referred to His office as the mediator of the covenant and not His origin.Read it again Jodi. It says that He was begotten WHEN He was exalted. He did not come into existence when He was exalted.
The Father has clearly said that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and that He created the heavens with HIS OWN HANDS (1:8-10).
You explained the Father's words away and did a poor job of it too.
thinker
Hi Jack,I gave a series of scriptures and at the end of the post I said, “Truly Jesus Christ WAS Created by our Heavenly Father he was Born, Begotten, and Made!”
The post I made was to show that Jesus was in FACT BORN, does that mean anything to you, someone's BIRTH?
Jesus was NOT ALIVE until the Holy Spirit fertilized Mary's egg!
Through God's Spirit JESUS came to life, in the womb of Mary. Before the birth of Jesus he is shown to exist only as a PROMISE.
I showed scripture that says that Jesus was BEGOTTEN as the CHRIST and as our LORD (Master), meaning Jesus did NOT make himself Christ or master, the FATHER PRODUCED Jesus to be the Messiah.
I also spoke about WHY Jesus was exalted, it was not because he pre-existed as a god son, and once he was raised from the dead he deserved to go back to being a god son. Just like the glory that Jesus had before with God was not being a god son and he was going back to being god the son. The exalting and the glory had EVERYTHING to do with eternal life for human beings. The first Adam LOST immortality, the last Adam gained it back, and as the first Adam brought death to everyone after him, all the MORE the last Adam would bring eternal salvation.
Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Hebrews 2:17Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Joh 17:2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Re 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
Seriously Jack does FIRSTBORN of the DEAD, mean ANYTHING to you?
Rev 20:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
As the MAN that is firstborn of the dead he is able to give us life, NOT because he is god the son.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 18 2009,10:41) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 18 2009,10:14) Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 17 2009,16:43) Truly Jesus Christ WAS Created by our Heavenly Father he was Born, Begotten, and Made!
Not one of those scriptures says Jesus was created. That is your inference!You can't help yourself can you? You have to have a miilion words for a simple question.
I said can you show me “One” scripture where Jesus was created? And instead of you showing me one scripture you show me a handful and a thousand words and none of them say any such thing, but that is simply your inference!
WJ
Ah gee wiz!CREATE and MAKE mean the same thing. Jesus was begotten by the Father, meaning he was PRODUCED by the Father, and then the Father MADE him our master and our Christ.
What exactly are you trying to get at Keith?
In the OT YHWH promised that from the seed of David He would produce a human being and make him our lord and Christ, and that He would make him an eternal king.
So what according to you, do I have wrong in the above statement?
Let's just clarify this post.Jesus came from the womb of Mary and he was fully a human being.
Is there anyone here who wants to DENY this?
The fertilization of Mary's egg was PRODUCED, or BEGOTTEN through the power of the Father's Spirit, and it CREATED in Mary's womb the embryo of Jesus.
Is there anyone here who wants to DENY this?
Jesus the man was made or CREATED by his Father YHWH, to be our Master and Christ.
Is there anyone here who wants to DENY this?
its really odd that all the preachers that go to college for years get into deep study of the scriptures, History of the bible, the dead sea scrolls, and they teach the trinity in the church's but the ones that dont go dont believe in it. You would really be amazed how much more you would learn!
Jodi Lee said:
Quote Jesus was obviously quoting his Father when he said “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
Jodi Lee,
It is not “obvious” that Jesus was quoting the Father. The narrative says that the disciples remembered the scripture AND the word which Jesus spoke to them. The “word” Jesus spoke to them was a NEW word. The disciples believed Jesus' word AND they believed the scripture.Jodi Lee:
Quote It all makes complete sense given the fact that YHWH SAID that He would not allow His Holy One to see corruption in the OT, and then we see in fact several times that the Father raised Jesus from the dead, with NO mention of Jesus playing a part ONE single time.
Please note what it says in verse 24. It says that God “abolished the birth pains of death.” How did God abolish the birth pangs of death? Answer: The birth pangs of death were abolished by the death of Christ itself,Quote Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
So how can you say that Christ had no part at all in His resurrection when the very abolition of its birth pains was wrought through His own death? This is HOW God did it. Death was destroyed by the death of Christ and not by the resurrection of Christ. This is substantiated by the next statement in Acts 2Quote …whom God raised up, having abolished the birth pains of death BECAUSE it was not possible that He should be held by it
Now did you catch that Jodi? It says that God abolished the birth pains of death “BECAUSE” it was not possible that Christ be held by it. Why? Because Christ Himself defeated death by His own death! Praise Him!The Scripture says that He Himself has abolished death.
Quote God… who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Timothy 1:9-10)
There could have been no resurrection for Christ or for anyone had Christ Himself not abolished death BY HIS OWN DEATH. Therefore, Christ had a part that was in the least PREPATORY for His own resurrection and for ours. This is solified by the fact that both God and Christ are called “our Savior.” God could not have abolished the birth pains of death had Christ not defeated death Himself. It explicitly says that God raised Him up BECAUSE it was not possible for Him to be held by it. Amen!You speak half truths Jodi. And half truths are falsehoods.
One more point. On another occasion Jesus predicted that He would raise Himself from the dead.
MARK 9:31
31 For He taught His disciples and said to them, “The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day.”Note how it says that He “will rise” from the dead. Guess what Sis? Jesus used the middle voice form of the verb “anastasis”. The middle voice means this, “And the third day He will raise Himself from the dead.”
Note too that the translators render it in the active voice.
SUMMARY:
1. Jesus spoke a NEW word to His disciples in addition to the scriptures in reference to the raising up of His body. He did NOT quote the Father. The disciples remembered the scripture AND the word which Jesus said.2. God abolished the birth pains of death by the death of Christ Himself.
3. Paul said that Jesus Christ has abolished death and has brought imortality to light. It says that both God and Jesus Christ is our Savior (2 Timothy 1:9-10).
4. Jesus predicted His rising from the dead using the middle voice form of the verb which means, “On the third day He will raise Himself from the dead. The translators render the verb in the active voice. There is no room for taking the verb as a passive.
Now, would you like to re-think your view that the scripture does not say that Jesus played a part at all?
thinker
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 18 2009,12:50) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 18 2009,10:41) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 18 2009,10:14) Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 17 2009,16:43) Truly Jesus Christ WAS Created by our Heavenly Father he was Born, Begotten, and Made!
Not one of those scriptures says Jesus was created. That is your inference!You can't help yourself can you? You have to have a miilion words for a simple question.
I said can you show me “One” scripture where Jesus was created? And instead of you showing me one scripture you show me a handful and a thousand words and none of them say any such thing, but that is simply your inference!
WJ
Ah gee wiz!CREATE and MAKE mean the same thing. Jesus was begotten by the Father, meaning he was PRODUCED by the Father, and then the Father MADE him our master and our Christ.
What exactly are you trying to get at Keith?
In the OT YHWH promised that from the seed of David He would produce a human being and make him our lord and Christ, and that He would make him an eternal king.
So what according to you, do I have wrong in the above statement?
Let's just clarify this post.Jesus came from the womb of Mary and he was fully a human being.
Is there anyone here who wants to DENY this?
The fertilization of Mary's egg was PRODUCED, or BEGOTTEN through the power of the Father's Spirit, and it CREATED in Mary's womb the embryo of Jesus.
Is there anyone here who wants to DENY this?
Jesus the man was made or CREATED by his Father YHWH, to be our Master and Christ.
Is there anyone here who wants to DENY this?
JodiThe word “ginomai” means.. “Came in to being”!
The only thing that was created was his Body, his flesh. And Jesus came into being as the “Only Son of God”!
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, “but a body you prepared for me“; In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Heb 10:5-7
Jesus had a beginning as a man, but John 1:1, 14, and Phil 2:6-8 show that he existed in the Form of God and emptied himself and came in the likeness of sinful flesh.
As Spirit, Jesus existed as the Word that was with God and came down from heaven!
WJ
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 19 2009,04:00) Scripture is clear that the person who sins DIES, their soul or LIFE ceases to exist. The reason WHY God DESTROYS there LIFE is because He wants to STOP SIN, He does not want sin to remain. When a person dies the BRAIN stops functioning and decomposes. The brain is where people THINK, it is where SIN LIVES in a person. Sin dwells in the mind that lives in the brain, destroy the body and you destroy the mind. How exactly is a person rewarded or punished when they don't have a brain? Genesis 6:6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Scripture shows that God wants to destroy MAN! Which when you destroy the body, you do just that, you stop their entire existence. Man's spirit is said to return to God, it is not said to receive a reward or a punishment. Man's spirit is never said to receive a reward or punishment immediately after death.
Daniel 12:2`And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during.
Reward or punishment is clearly shown to be placed upon a person during the RESURRECTION.
YHWH does NOT want to look upon sin, He wants it to not exist. The point of the flood was to show that YHWH WILL not tolerate wickedness He does not want it to exist anymore. Complete foolishness to teach that YHWH wants to keep sinful minds alive in some underground realm. That idea is PURE PAGAN, and it was created by IGNORANT people who didn't have any idea of where the MIND of man has it's life and existence….IN THE BODY!
So how could Jesus had been raised from the dead if His soul ceased to exist? If His soul ceased to exist then it was an altogether new soul that came up from sheol. This new soul would not have been the soul that was born of Mary and that suffered in the flesh. In essence you have denied the resurrection.Please explain Jesus' statement
Matthew 22:29-32 (New King James Version)
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a] in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”Jesus was answering the Sadducees who held to Jodi's annihilationist view. Jesus inferred that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “living.” We know those patriarchs were not in heaven for Jesus said that no man had ascended to heaven.
So where were they? Jesus clearly said that they were “living.”
Okay, here is a summary of the company Jodi Lee keeps:
1. She denies that Christ was David's Lord thus siding with the unbelieving Jews.
2. She sides with the Sadducees who denied the conscious after life of the soul. Jesus and Paul sided with the Pharisees who confessed the conscious after life of the soul and the resurrection.
Jodi Lee is not in good company.
Death is not annihilation. If it was then Jesus was not raised from the dead. The body of Jesus was resurrected with another soul inhabiting it.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,19:28) Jodi Lee said: Quote Jack, let's stick with the main point here. Jesus was begotten. He was TO BE a son, he wasn't always in existence. He came into existence when he was born from Mary, however he was clearly foreknown from the beginning before the world was, and as we know YHWH created all things by His knowledge of him and He created all things for him, that he would rule over an earth of peace and harmony. The Father MADE Jesus both Lord and Christ. Jodi Lee,
Yeah! Let's stick to the main point. The point is that He was EXALTED and that He was begotten WHEN He was exalted. His name as “Son” referred to His office as the mediator of the covenant and not His origin.Read it again Jodi. It says that He was begotten WHEN He was exalted. He did not come into existence when He was exalted.
The Father has clearly said that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and that He created the heavens with HIS OWN HANDS (1:8-10).
You explained the Father's words away and did a poor job of it too.
thinker
WOW, truly unbelievable you are Jack.
That's all you have to say?
So you deny the scriptures that say that the Father created the heavens and the earth?
You DENY that Jesus was CHANGED from mortal to immortal?
It does not cross your mind at all that you just might be wrong in the interpretation of one passage, when it goes against many others?
Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.' 27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
Acts 17:23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Just admit it Jack, my understanding makes a heck of a lot MORE SENSE, does it not?
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Jesus DID NOT speak to the prophets in the Old Testament the FATHER did.
Jesus IS NOT the Majesty on high, he is the one MADE into a perfect man exalted to sit at the right hand of the Majesty.
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Jesus BECAME something, that would indicate that he CHANGED!
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
We are to worship Jesus NOT as the Majesty on High, the One True God the FATHER, but as the one whom the Father BEGOT!!
We are to worship Jesus because he is the FIRST MAN raised from the dead! Jesus wasn't always a son, he came to BE a son!7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” 8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
God refers to Jesus as god upon saying he RECEIVED an eternal throne after proving to love righteousness and hate lawlessness. If Jesus were being referred to as god as implied that it means he is the One True God or part of the One true God, then WHY would he need to RECEIVE the throne and why would he need to be anointed with the Holy Spirit, and WHY would he be referred to as having a God himself?
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”
Ps 8:6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,
Heb 2:7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands.
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Does the PERSON who MADE heaven and earth with their hands, GIVE themselves dominion over their OWN work? No the person who made the heavens and earth with their hands is the Father, and the Father gave Jesus dominion over His creation. Verse 10 is telling us that YHWH does not change He has changed MAN though, and Jesus is the first man to receive that change.
In the beginning Adam was given dominion to rule over the earth, but he was found not worthy, Jesus the
second Adam however was. YHWH in the beginning made earth FOR man, but it needed to have a righteous man having dominion over it, not an ignorant sinful one. Jesus is that man, the eternal King over the earth, and I am very excited for his return. Oh man, I seriously CANNOT WAIT for the sort of dominion Jesus will have over the earth, it is going to be seriously awesome, totally righteous! My BROTHER, my King is going to do GREAT things, all thanks to the work of the Father, who changed man from being an ignorant selfish soul into a wise and selfless one.Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 17 2009,18:23) Give me OT scripture that says people go down alive to the grave? Give me one OT scripture that says that it is only man's body that dies?
Pr 19:16 He who keeps the commandment keeps his soul, But he who is careless of his ways will die.
Eze 18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Eze 33:9 Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
Ps 30:3 O Lord, You brought my soul up from the grave; You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Ps 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah
Ps 86:13 For great is Your mercy toward me, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.
Ps 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, And to keep them alive in famine.
Ps 56:13 For You have delivered my soul from death. Have You not kept my feet from falling, That I may walk before God In the light of the living?
Ps 78:50 He made a path for His anger; He did not spare their soul from death, But gave their life over to the plague,
Ps 116:8 For You have delivered my soul from death, My eyes from tears, And my feet from falling.
Scripture from OT shows clearly that the soul is something that is destroyed, it is something that dies. The soul represents a person’s LIFE, of which can be taken away and can cease to exist. The Old Testament is very clear that when you die there exists NO conscious awareness.
Psalms 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?
Isaiah 38:18 For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
Scripture speaks of death as being like sleep.
Ps 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Jack, the bible refers to LIVING men on EARTH as spirits, Jesus preached to the spirits of LIVING men in prison.
Ge 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”
Ec 3:19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.
Ec 12:7Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
This DOES NOT sound like spirits dwelling consciously in some abyss.
The new reveals the old!None of the scriptures you quote say that the dead are not conscious, but only they are not conscious of the natural. They can no longer hear or see us. To us they are dead for they cannot communicate with us any longer.
This one scripture blows the Unitarian view of the dead away…
And when he had opened the fifth seal, “I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God”, and for the testimony which they held: “AND THEY CRIED WITH A LOUD VOICE, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” Rev 6:9, 10
They are in heaven and they are crying with a loud voice!
But lets see how you will explain that away to fit your doctrine! Again, another example of the Arians pitting scriptures against each other rather than letting them interpret themselves.
The basic Christology of the Christian faith is missing, that is why you guys cannot percieve that Men are Spirits after the image of God who is Spirit, who live in a Body or Temple.
Thats why you cannot concieve that Jesus a Spirit came in the flesh and like we one day like removing a garment will put off these mortal clothes, because Jesus put on his body of flesh (only without sin) that we might be redeemed!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 19 2009,06:03) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 19 2009,04:00) Scripture is clear that the person who sins DIES, their soul or LIFE ceases to exist. The reason WHY God DESTROYS there LIFE is because He wants to STOP SIN, He does not want sin to remain. When a person dies the BRAIN stops functioning and decomposes. The brain is where people THINK, it is where SIN LIVES in a person. Sin dwells in the mind that lives in the brain, destroy the body and you destroy the mind. How exactly is a person rewarded or punished when they don't have a brain? Genesis 6:6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Scripture shows that God wants to destroy MAN! Which when you destroy the body, you do just that, you stop their entire existence. Man's spirit is said to return to God, it is not said to receive a reward or a punishment. Man's spirit is never said to receive a reward or punishment immediately after death.
Daniel 12:2`And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during.
Reward or punishment is clearly shown to be placed upon a person during the RESURRECTION.
YHWH does NOT want to look upon sin, He wants it to not exist. The point of the flood was to show that YHWH WILL not tolerate wickedness He does not want it to exist anymore. Complete foolishness to teach that YHWH wants to keep sinful minds alive in some underground realm. That idea is PURE PAGAN, and it was created by IGNORANT people who didn't have any idea of where the MIND of man has it's life and existence….IN THE BODY!
So how could Jesus had been raised from the dead if His soul ceased to exist? If His soul ceased to exist then it was an altogether new soul that came up from sheol. This new soul would not have been the soul that was born of Mary and that suffered in the flesh. In essence you have denied the resurrection.
Please explain Jesus' statement
Matthew 22:29-32 (New King James Version)
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a] in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”Jesus was answering the Sadducees who held to Jodi's annihilationist view. Jesus inferred that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “living.” We know those patriarchs were not in heaven for Jesus said that no man had ascended to heaven.
So where were they? Jesus clearly said that they were “living.”
Okay, here is a summary of the company Jodi Lee keeps:
1. She denies that Christ was David's Lord thus siding with the unbelieving Jews.
2. She sides with the Sadducees who denied the conscious after life of the soul. Jesus and Paul sided with the Pharisees who confessed the conscious after life of the soul and the resurrection.
Jodi Lee is not in good company.
Death is not annihilation. If it was then Jesus was not raised from the dead. The body of Jesus was resurrected with another soul inhabiting it.
thinker
HUH?The body of Jesus was dead, which contained his brain, his mind. Like I said when the body dies the mind no longer functions, it cannot perceive anything.
Soul means LIFE, when someone DIES there LIFE is over. When Jesus was raised from the dead, his Father breathed the breath of LIFE back into Jesus, and his body and therefore his mind came back to LIFE. Jesus was the SAME person with the SAME mind, the only thing different was that his body was given immortality.
God is not the God of the dead but of the living, EXACTLY, dead people do not receive anything from God while they are dead! The don't receive any sort of reward or punishment. A person has to be alive to receive anything from God.
Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a] in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
This does not say that Abraham or anyone else is living. They will be living when they are resurrected. It is the resurrection OF the DEAD…. if God is going to be the God not to the dead, but to the living, then they OBVIOUSLY have to BE RESURRECTED!
Jack you have the knack of taking one scripture and screwing it all up, ignoring many others that would help give you a truthful understanding. Your whole doctrine is one huge lie built upon another. To be dead is to be alive, what utter nonsense.
Ps 30:3 O Lord, You brought my soul up from the grave; You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Ps 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, And to keep them alive in famine.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
There is only consciousness in the life of a body. What in the world do you think consciousness is and where it comes from? We are created creatures, and our consciousness exists in our brain which is MADE of MATTER! That matter has LIFE when YHWH says it has life, and He takes it away when He wants to take it away.
Jack cannot list ONE scripture that shows consciousness exists IN DEATH. He cannot list ONE scripture that says sheol contains TWO compartments, one for good people and one for bad people, where they receive conscious rewards and punishments.
Scripture clearly says that MAN is MORTAL, Jack however likes to believe the ideas of Plato, over scripture.
Psalms 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?
Isaiah 38:18 For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
Scripture speaks of death as being like sleep.
Ps 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and ever
lasting contempt.David was a prophet, he was mentioned in Hebrews 11 as one that had faith but was yet to receive a promise. David was told about the coming Messiah and he was glad to have seen the prophecy. David is the one who tells us CLEARLY that IN SHEOL the dead have NO consciousness.
Paul speaks of how our hope is IN the Resurrection, he mentions NOTHING about a conscious judgment while being dead.
Jack you are greatly mistaken,
I said just YESTERDAY that Christ IS the MASTER of David
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 19 2009,06:27) Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 17 2009,18:23) Give me OT scripture that says people go down alive to the grave? Give me one OT scripture that says that it is only man's body that dies?
Pr 19:16 He who keeps the commandment keeps his soul, But he who is careless of his ways will die.
Eze 18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Eze 33:9 Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
Ps 30:3 O Lord, You brought my soul up from the grave; You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Ps 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah
Ps 86:13 For great is Your mercy toward me, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.
Ps 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, And to keep them alive in famine.
Ps 56:13 For You have delivered my soul from death. Have You not kept my feet from falling, That I may walk before God In the light of the living?
Ps 78:50 He made a path for His anger; He did not spare their soul from death, But gave their life over to the plague,
Ps 116:8 For You have delivered my soul from death, My eyes from tears, And my feet from falling.
Scripture from OT shows clearly that the soul is something that is destroyed, it is something that dies. The soul represents a person’s LIFE, of which can be taken away and can cease to exist. The Old Testament is very clear that when you die there exists NO conscious awareness.
Psalms 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?
Isaiah 38:18 For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
Scripture speaks of death as being like sleep.
Ps 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Jack, the bible refers to LIVING men on EARTH as spirits, Jesus preached to the spirits of LIVING men in prison.
Ge 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”
Ec 3:19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.
Ec 12:7Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
This DOES NOT sound like spirits dwelling consciously in some abyss.
The new reveals the old!None of the scriptures you quote say that the dead are not conscious, but only they are not conscious of the natural. They can no longer hear or see us. To us they are dead for they cannot communicate with us any longer.
This one scripture blows the Unitarian view of the dead away…
And when he had opened the fifth seal, “I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God”, and for the testimony which they held: “AND THEY CRIED WITH A LOUD VOICE, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” Rev 6:9, 10
They are in heaven and they are crying with a loud voice!
But lets see how you will explain that away to fit your doctrine! Again, another example of the Arians pitting scriptures against each other rather than letting them interpret themselves.
The basic Christology of the Christian faith is missing, that is why you guys cannot percieve that Men are Spirits after the image of God who is Spirit, who live in a Body or Temple.
Thats why you cannot concieve that Jesus a Spirit came in the flesh and like we one day like removing a garment will put off these mortal clothes, because Jesus put on his body of flesh (only without sin) that we might be redeemed!
WJ
Your talking about the Book of Revelation here, those people are not truly speaking, just like in the following Moses and Elijah were not truling speaking, they were a vision.Matthew 17:1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. 7 But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” 8 When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. 9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”
Rev 6 says that they are RESTING, they are sleeping, this correlates perfectly with the OT and David's words and that of Daniels.
Ps 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Obviously Revelation keeps in line with the OT PROPHETS,
What else did David say about death?…..stuff like this-
Psalms 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?
Jodi Lee said:
Quote So you deny the scriptures that say that the Father created the heavens and the earth? Yeap! I deny that the Father created the heavens and the earth. According to the Father Himself the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of the Son's hands. You cited Psalm 102 as a “proot text” that the Father created.
However, Hebrews 1:8-10 clearly shows that the Father Himself attributed the creation to the Son,
8But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”10And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS;The Father Himself applies Psalm 102 to the Son. If the Father gives the Son the credit then I don't have a problem giving Him the credit too.
We notice in Isaiah 48:12-16 that the Creator is distinguished from God,
12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
13MY HAND also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
14All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
15I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
There it is! The Father Himself applied Psalm 102 to the Son which means that the Son shares the name YHWH with the Father.
And in Isaiah 48 the Creator said that the heavens and the earth are the work of “My hands” and then distinguished Himself from God saying, “I am sent by the Lord God and His Spirit.”
You say that the Father is your God. So how can you call Him a liar?
thinker
WorshippingJesus said to Jodi Lee:
Quote None of the scriptures you quote say that the dead are not conscious, but only they are not conscious of the natural. They can no longer hear or see us. To us they are dead for they cannot communicate with us any longer. Keith,
Exactly! I meant to say this too. The word “death” is relative. To be “dead” to sin is to be alive unto God. To be “dead” to the law is to be alive unto righteousness. The dead were such in relation to this world. But they were alive in the “unseen” world awaiting the resurrection. The word “hades” (from sheol) means the “unseen world.” The righteous went to the garden and the wicked went into the pit.Jodi's view that death means annihilation necessarily infers that Christ Himself was not risen from sheol. For if His soul was annihilated then another soul would have taken its place in the body in the tomb. That soul would not have been the soul that was born of Mary nor that suffered and died because the soul of Jesus no longer existed.
So Jodi would be more consistent if she would just deny the resurrection of Jesus altogether. If she believes that the SAME Jesus was raised out of sheol then she MUST abandon her annihilationist view.
I marvel that Jodi is not at all uncomfortable with the fact that she sides with the Sadducees when Jesus and Paul did not.
Jack
Jodi Lee said:
Quote Jesus was the SAME person with the SAME mind, the only thing different was that his body was given immortality. I am glad you say that Jesus was the “SAME person.” However, this cannot be true if death means to “cease to exist” as you have said. If the soul of Jesus ceased to exist then it was another soul that came into His body in the tomb.
Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “LIVING.” Jesus inferred this because YHWH was still their God. And God is not the God of the dead,
“For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living”
Now those patriarchs were not in heaven for Jesus said that no man had ascended to heaven. So where were they living?
thinker
Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 18 2009,15:50) Your talking about the Book of Revelation here, those people are not truly speaking, just like in the following Moses and Elijah were not truling speaking, they were a vision.
So the vision in Revelation was untrue?So Jesus was just talking to a “vision” and his conversation was not real?
When the Father said “this is my Beloved Son, hear ye him”, the Father didn’t say it?
So when Paul was blinded by the vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus, he didn’t see the light or hear his voice?
There are two problems with your explanation of Revelation 6:9, 10.
1.The word “Vision is not in the verses” and what John saw was real!
The Greek word for “Vision” is, Strong's G3705 – horama, which means:
1) that which is seen, spectacle
2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a visionIts found in the AV — vision 11 Times, sight 2.
The word almost invariably is used where there was a “Vision”, not so in Revelation 6.
2.The Greek word is translated twice as “sight”, so either way your explanation fails!
Now compare this with many other NT scriptures showing the separation of the Spirit of man and his Body….
2 Cor. 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, “(WHETHER IN THE BODY, I CANNOT TELL; OR WHETHER OUT OF THE BODY, I CANNOT TELL: GOD KNOWETH;”) such an one “caught up to the third heaven”. And I knew such a man, “(WHETHER IN THE BODY, OR OUT OF THE BODY, I CANNOT TELL”: GOD KNOWETH;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul is clearly telling us that he believed in a conscious state of mind in the separation of the Spirit from the Body!
Jesus said…
“And fear not them which **kill the body**, but are not able to **kill the soul**: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both **SOUL AND BODY IN HELL**”. Matt 10:28
WJ
Hi Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,16:57) Jodi's view that death means annihilation necessarily infers that Christ Himself was not risen from sheol. For if His soul was annihilated then another soul would have taken its place in the body in the tomb. That soul would not have been the soul that was born of Mary nor that suffered and died because the soul of Jesus no longer existed.
Good point!WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 19 2009,10:44) Hi Jack Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,16:57) Jodi's view that death means annihilation necessarily infers that Christ Himself was not risen from sheol. For if His soul was annihilated then another soul would have taken its place in the body in the tomb. That soul would not have been the soul that was born of Mary nor that suffered and died because the soul of Jesus no longer existed.
Good point!WJ
Keith,
I think that Jodi is really struggling here. She says that it is the SAME Jesus that was raised from the dead. But at the same time she says that death means “to cease to exist.” It doesn't work. She can't have it both ways.Btw, you beat me to it with the vision of John in Revelation 6. Those souls indeed cried with a loud voice asking God to avenge them. They were told that they should “rest a little whil longer.” They were in a place of rest awaiting to be avenged.
Jesus inferred that the patriarchs were ALIVE because God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING. Jodi Lee is in line with the Sadducees while Jesus and Paul were not.
Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,19:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 19 2009,10:44) Hi Jack Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,16:57) Jodi's view that death means annihilation necessarily infers that Christ Himself was not risen from sheol. For if His soul was annihilated then another soul would have taken its place in the body in the tomb. That soul would not have been the soul that was born of Mary nor that suffered and died because the soul of Jesus no longer existed.
Good point!WJ
Keith,
I think that Jodi is really struggling here. She says that it is the SAME Jesus that was raised from the dead. But at the same time she says that death means “to cease to exist.” It doesn't work. She can't have it both ways.Btw, you beat me to it with the vision of John in Revelation 6. Those souls indeed cried with a loud voice asking God to avenge them. They were told that they should “rest a little whil longer.” They were in a place of rest awaiting to be avenged.
Jesus inferred that the patriarchs were ALIVE because God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING. Jodi Lee is in line with the Sadducees while Jesus and Paul were not.
Jack
Hi JackI think that this also is related to the fact that Jodi and Gene do not percieve that men or demons are sentient spirit beings, but rather Spirit is just “thoughts” or “intellect” that float around in the air!
Most of this teaching I think is from the “Brenner” guy”!
WJ
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