The messenger of jehovah was jehovah

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene @ Sep. 18 2009,09:18)

Jodi……..Amen sis. These deluded Trinitarians can't even begin to understand that, it appears like. They just jump form one false concept to another , because they are not established on a strong Foundation, and that is Jesus was and is a Man, Created and brought forth through the loins of King David by GOD himself.  He will return an establish the true Kingdom that will endure for ever. And when His rule of that Kingdom is finished he will turn it over to the Father and Himself become subject to GOD, that GOD (ONE) GOD may be in all and through (ALL), simple no confusion at all when you get the TRINITARIAN Garbage out of the way, it all Fits.  Thank GOD He has delievered us from these Blind teachings of theirs.  They have no idea the damage there teachings have done to the truth, thank GOD he has brought us out of those false Trinitarian concepts. You are a true warrior for Jesus and the FATHER SIS.  The Spirit of SOUNDNESS is Certainly with you and can easily be seen in your posts. Keep up the (good) work. Peace and love to you and yours Jodi……………….gene

Gene,
Please explain Paul's statement:

“All things were created BY Him and FOR Him” (Colossians  1:16).

thinker

[KangarooJack]

WorshippingJesus asked Jodi:

Quote

Jodi Please show us scripture that says Jesus was created! WJ

Jodi's reply:

Quote

2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.

Jodi,
This passage is taliking about David's son Solomon.

thinker

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,09:36)

Quote (Gene @ Sep. 18 2009,09:18) Jodi……..Amen sis. These deluded Trinitarians can't even begin to understand that, it appears like. They just jump form one false concept to another , because they are not established on a strong Foundation, and that is Jesus was and is a Man, Created and brought forth through the loins of King David by GOD himself.  He will return an establish the true Kingdom that will endure for ever. And when His rule of that Kingdom is finished he will turn it over to the Father and Himself become subject to GOD, that GOD (ONE) GOD may be in all and through (ALL), simple no confusion at all when you get the TRINITARIAN Garbage out of the way, it all Fits.  Thank GOD He has delievered us from these Blind teachings of theirs.  They have no idea the damage there teachings have done to the truth, thank GOD he has brought us out of those false Trinitarian concepts. You are a true warrior for Jesus and the FATHER SIS.  The Spirit of SOUNDNESS is Certainly with you and can easily be seen in your posts. Keep up the (good) work. Peace and love to you and yours Jodi……………….gene Gene, Please explain Paul's statement: “All things were created BY Him and FOR Him” (Colossians  1:16). thinker

Can I answer Jack?

The earth was created for righteous men to dwell upon it, in peace and harmony.

Is Not Jesus, the Son of man, the offspring of David,  returning to earth to destroy all enemies and create a paradise?

Is it not our Heavenly Father's desire that man lives an enjoyable life on earth amongst His beautiful creation?

2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, butaccording to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

In the beginning the Father created the heavens and the earth by His knowledge of the coming Christ, and He created it for the Christ and his brethren!

By CHRIST and for CHRIST, was the earth created. Scripture does not say that the Father had a god son make the heavens and the earth for the god son.

Jack what do you think we will be doing on earth when paradise is established?  We will be eating and drinking, singing and dancing, exploring and learning, inventing and designing. We will be enjoying nature and life to the fullest, as it was intended for MAN from the beginning.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 18 2009,09:32)

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,06:56) Jodi Lee said: Quote Jack, don't you believe that Jesus was not fully dead, that he played a part in his own resurrection? Remember you argue that when Jesus said “destroy this temple I will raise it up in three days”, that means that by the power of Jesus along with the Father he raised himself? Hi Jodi, What do you mean by “fully dead?” Men don't cease to exist when they die. Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “living.” Jesus told the thief next to Him “today you shall be with Me in paradise.” This does not sound like “fully dead” to me. Jesus said that Jonah was a sign of His death. Jonah's being in the belly of the whale for three days corresponded to Jesus' being in sheol for three days. Jonah was in the whale's belly ALIVE. So what do you mean by “fully dead?” Trinitarians are wrongly accused of saying that Jesus did not die like everyone else. But He did die like eveyone else because no one “fully” dies. Bodies fully die but spirits don't. Death is called “sleep” in scripture. One who sleeps is not “fully dead.” He said that He would raise up His body in three days. If His spirit was alive this was not a problem. If the Son of God had the power to give life to Lazarus' body, then He had the power to give life to His own body. Jodi Lee: Quote If Jesus was part of the God that raised Jesus, then I just naturally assumed that you would also believe then that Jesus was also part of the God who exalted Jesus. Therefore as well, if Jesus is part of the God who exalted Jesus to sit at the right hand of God, then Jesus has placed himself at his own right hand. It is more a matter of Jesus' particular role in His resurrection. The Father called Him out of the abyss and then Jesus Himself raised up the body. Peter explicitly said that the Father raised Him up out of sheol (or abyss, Acts 2; Rom. 10). Jesus clearly said that He would raise up His body (John 2). It is undeniable that Jesus raised up His body. He explicitly said He would or He was a liar. As far as His exaltation I have never said that He exalted Himself. I said that He was worthy of it. Jodi Lee: Quote Sorry if my assumptions are incorrect. Please correct them for me, for I am confused with your doctrine as to when you believe Jesus is God and when you don't. I never said there was a time that Jesus was not God. He was always God in His true self but for a time took He the form of a servant. He lived as though He was not God. Paul said that this was His “mind.” “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.” blessings, thinker Jack, The bible specifically says that David has not ascended to heaven. Hebrews 11 speaks of how Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Sara and many others have YET to receive their promise. Our hope is in the resurrection from the dead, not in being separated from our bodies and going to heaven. Our hope is in receiving an immortal body at Christ's return. Lu 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.” Did you notice how changing ONE comma changes what is being said? Jesus was telling the thief on that day, in that MOMENT when the thief was suffering, that he would be with Christ in paradise. REALLY? You think the Father, Jesus and everyone who died in Christ is in paradise at this very second just having a good old time, watching all of us down here suffer? That's demented.=( The Father and the Son, are PREPARING for the kingdom of God, and it will come down to earth from heaven, and Jerusalem will be it's capitol. Joh 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. Re 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Mt 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mt 5:5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Why is death referred to as sleep Jack? Why does scripture say that those who die cannot praise the Lord? The dead go down in silence? The dead have no remembrance of the Lord? The dead cannot thank the Lord? When we die our LIFE or soul dies. Matthew 17:3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us  make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. 7 But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” 8 When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. 9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”   Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. The people that appeared were visions. The bible makes it clear that the dead do not rise to dwell with Christ until he comes to establish God's kingdom on earth. Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country.Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, f or He has prepared a city for them. ….39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed– 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jodi Lee,
I did not say that anyone went to heaven. I said they went to paradise or sheol. In the old testament people went down to sheol ALIVE and awaited the resurrection. Neither did I say anything about them being able to watch our sufferings here. I do not believe that. You said that you did not want to assume what I believe and then go right to doing it again.

You totally ignored my point about Jonah being a sign of the death of Christ. Jonah was in the whale (sheol) ALIVE.

“Out of the belly of SHEOL I cried” (Jonah 2:2)

Peter explicitly said that Jesus went down to sheol in Acts 2. He went down there ALIVE. Paul called the place the “abyss” (Rom. 10). Paul said that Jesus was raised up from the abyss and spirits went down to the abyss ALIVE. Paul said also that during those three days Jesus preached to spirits in prison. Do dead spirits go to prison?

Death is never quantative in scripture. It is always qualitative.

The Father called Jesus out of sheol or the abyss. Jesus raised up His body after that. He explicitly said that He would raise up His body (John 2:19-22). You ignored this too.

thinker

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,09:41)

WorshippingJesus asked Jodi: Quote Jodi Please show us scripture that says Jesus was created! WJ Jodi's reply: Quote 2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. Jodi, This passage is taliking about David's son Solomon. thinker

Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?

2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Jodi

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 17 2009,16:43)

Truly Jesus Christ WAS Created by our Heavenly Father he was  Born, Begotten, and Made!

Not one of those scriptures says Jesus was created. That is your inference!

You can't help yourself can you? You have to have a miilion words for a simple question.

I said can you show me “One” scripture where Jesus was created? And instead of you showing me one scripture you show me a handful and a thousand words and none of them say any such thing, but that is simply your inference!

WJ

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,09:58)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 18 2009,09:32) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,06:56) Jodi Lee said: Quote Jack, don't you believe that Jesus was not fully dead, that he played a part in his own resurrection? Remember you argue that when Jesus said “destroy this temple I will raise it up in three days”, that means that by the power of Jesus along with the Father he raised himself? Hi Jodi, What do you mean by “fully dead?” Men don't cease to exist when they die. Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “living.” Jesus told the thief next to Him “today you shall be with Me in paradise.” This does not sound like “fully dead” to me. Jesus said that Jonah was a sign of His death. Jonah's being in the belly of the whale for three days corresponded to Jesus' being in sheol for three days. Jonah was in the whale's belly ALIVE. So what do you mean by “fully dead?” Trinitarians are wrongly accused of saying that Jesus did not die like everyone else. But He did die like eveyone else because no one “fully” dies. Bodies fully die but spirits don't. Death is called “sleep” in scripture. One who sleeps is not “fully dead.” He said that He would raise up His body in three days. If His spirit was alive this was not a problem. If the Son of God had the power to give life to Lazarus' body, then He had the power to give life to His own body. Jodi Lee: Quote If Jesus was part of the God that raised Jesus, then I just naturally assumed that you would also believe then that Jesus was also part of the God who exalted Jesus. Therefore as well, if Jesus is part of the God who exalted Jesus to sit at the right hand of God, then Jesus has placed himself at his own right hand. It is more a matter of Jesus' particular role in His resurrection. The Father called Him out of the abyss and then Jesus Himself raised up the body. Peter explicitly said that the Father raised Him up out of sheol (or abyss, Acts 2; Rom. 10). Jesus clearly said that He would raise up His body (John 2). It is undeniable that Jesus raised up His body. He explicitly said He would or He was a liar. As far as His exaltation I have never said that He exalted Himself. I said that He was worthy of it. Jodi Lee: Quote Sorry if my assumptions are incorrect. Please correct them for me, for I am confused with your doctrine as to when you believe Jesus is God and when you don't. I never said there was a time that Jesus was not God. He was always God in His true self but for a time took He the form of a servant. He lived as though He was not God. Paul said that this was His “mind.” “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.” blessings, thinker Jack, The bible specifically says that David has not ascended to heaven. Hebrews 11 speaks of how Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Sara and many others have YET to receive their promise. Our hope is in the resurrection from the dead, not in being separated from our bodies and going to heaven. Our hope is in receiving an immortal body at Christ's return. Lu 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.” Did you notice how changing ONE comma changes what is being said? Jesus was telling the thief on that day, in that MOMENT when the thief was suffering, that he would be with Christ in paradise. REALLY? You think the Father, Jesus and everyone who died in Christ is in paradise at this very second just having a good old time, watching all of us down here suffer? That's demented.=( The Father and the Son, are PREPARING for the kingdom of God, and it will come down to earth from heaven, and Jerusalem will be it's capitol. Joh 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. Re 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Mt 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mt 5:5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Why is death referred to as sleep Jack? Why does scripture say that those who die cannot praise the Lord? The dead go down in silence? The dead have no remembrance of the Lord? The dead cannot thank the Lord? When we die our LIFE or soul dies. Matthew 17:3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us  make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. 7 But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” 8 When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. 9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”   Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. The people that appeared were visions. The bible makes it clear that the dead do not rise to dwell with Christ until he comes to establish God's kingdom on earth. Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if th ey had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country.Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. ….39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed– 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Jodi Lee, I did not say that anyone went to heaven. I said they went to paradise or sheol. In the old testament people went down to sheol ALIVE and awaited the resurrection. Neither did I say anything about them being able to watch our sufferings here. I do not believe that. You said that you did not want to assume what I believe and then go right to doing it again. You totally ignored my point about Jonah being a sign of the death of Christ. Jonah was in the whale (sheol) ALIVE. “Out of the belly of SHEOL I cried” (Jonah 2:2) Peter explicitly said that Jesus went down to sheol in Acts 2. He went down there ALIVE. Paul called the place the “abyss” (Rom. 10). Paul said that Jesus was raised up from the abyss and spirits went down to the abyss ALIVE. Paul said also that during those three days Jesus preached to spirits in prison. Do dead spirits go to prison? Death is never quantative in scripture. It is always qualitative. The Father called Jesus out of sheol or the abyss. Jesus raised up His body after that. He explicitly said that He would raise up His body (John 2:19-22). You ignored this too. thinker

My apologies for making false assumptions, again, sorry.  

Jonah said, “Out of the belly of sheol I cried”,  because Jonah FELT as if he was on the brink of death in the belly of the whale. He felt no hope for life, as if he might as well be dead. Yah, there's a lot of LIFE to be lived in the belly of a whale, so much to do and see…on the contrary in the whale's belly your life is OVER you might as well be dead. You consider the belly of the whale paradise? Now I am really confused.

Give me OT scripture that says people go down alive to the grave?

Give me one OT scripture that says that it is only man's body that dies?

Pr 19:16 He who keeps the commandment keeps his soul, But he who is careless of his ways will die.

Eze 18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Eze 33:9 Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

Ps 30:3 O Lord, You brought my soul up from the grave; You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

Ps 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah

Ps 86:13 For great is Your mercy toward me, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

Ps 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, And to keep them alive in famine.

Ps 56:13 For You have delivered my soul from death. Have You not kept my feet from falling, That I may walk before God In the light of the living?

Ps 78:50 He made a path for His anger; He did not spare their soul from death, But gave their life over to the plague,

Ps 116:8 For You have delivered my soul from death, My eyes from tears, And my feet from falling.

Scripture from OT shows clearly that the soul is something that is destroyed, it is something that dies. The soul represents a person’s LIFE, of which can be taken away and can cease to exist.  The Old Testament is very clear that when you die there exists NO conscious awareness.

Psalms 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence.

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

Isaiah 38:18 For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

Scripture speaks of death as being like sleep.

Ps 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jack, the bible refers to LIVING men on EARTH as spirits, Jesus preached to the spirits of LIVING men in prison.

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”

Ec 3:19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.

Ec 12:7Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

This DOES NOT sound like spirits dwelling consciously in some abyss.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 18 2009,10:00)

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,09:41) WorshippingJesus asked Jodi: Quote Jodi Please show us scripture that says Jesus was created! WJ Jodi's reply: Quote 2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. Jodi, This passage is taliking about David's son Solomon. thinker Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? 2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.

Jodi Lee,
The prophecy in the first instance refers to David's son Solomon. It had its ultimate fulfillment in Christ.

1 Kings 8:14-21:14

Then the king turned around and blessed the whole assembly of Israel, while all the assembly of Israel was standing. 15 And he said: “Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, who spoke with His mouth to my father David, and with His hand has fulfilled it, saying, 16 ‘Since the day that I brought My people Israel out of Egypt, I have chosen no city from any tribe of Israel in which to build a house, that My name might be there; but I chose David to be over My people Israel.’ 17 Now it was in the heart of my father David to build a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel. 18 But the LORD said to my father David, ‘Whereas it was in your heart to build a temple for My name, you did well that it was in your heart. 19 Nevertheless you shall not build the temple, but your son who will COME OUT OF YOUR BODY, he shall build the temple for My name.’ 20 So the LORD has fulfilled His word which He spoke; and I have filled the position of my father David, and sit on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised; and I have built a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel. 21 And there I have made a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD which He made with our fathers, when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.

Please note that Solomon identifies himself as the son who would “come out of David's body” as spoken by the Lord in 2 Samuel 7:12. Therefore, you may not invoke 2 Samuel as a “proof text” for the supposed origin of Christ.

Paul explicitly said that Christ created all things,

“All things were created BY Him and FOR Him”

Again, the prophecy refers to Solomon in the first instance though it is ultimately fulfilled in Christ. To be honest I find that I am surprised by my having to tell you this.

SOLOMON SAID THAT HE HIMSELF WAS THE FULFILLMENT “AS THE LORD PROMISED.” IF THAT PROMISE IS NOT FOUND IN 2 SAMUEL 7:14 THEN WHERE IS IT FOUND?

thinker

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 18 2009,10:14)

Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 17 2009,16:43) Truly Jesus Christ WAS Created by our Heavenly Father he was  Born, Begotten, and Made! Not one of those scriptures says Jesus was created. That is your inference! You can't help yourself can you? You have to have a miilion words for a simple question. I said can you show me “One” scripture where Jesus was created? And instead of you showing me one scripture you show me a handful and a thousand words and none of them say any such thing, but that is simply your inference! WJ

Ah gee wiz!

CREATE and MAKE mean the same thing. Jesus was begotten by the Father, meaning he was PRODUCED by the Father, and then the Father MADE him our master and our Christ.

What exactly are you trying to get at Keith?

In the OT YHWH promised that from the seed of David He would produce a human being and make him our lord and Christ, and that He would make him an eternal king.

So what according to you, do I have wrong in the above statement?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 18 2009,09:57)

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,09:36) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 18 2009,09:18) Jodi……..Amen sis. These deluded Trinitarians can't even begin to understand that, it appears like. They just jump form one false concept to another , because they are not established on a strong Foundation, and that is Jesus was and is a Man, Created and brought forth through the loins of King David by GOD himself.  He will return an establish the true Kingdom that will endure for ever. And when His rule of that Kingdom is finished he will turn it over to the Father and Himself become subject to GOD, that GOD (ONE) GOD may be in all and through (ALL), simple no confusion at all when you get the TRINITARIAN Garbage out of the way, it all Fits.  Thank GOD He has delievered us from these Blind teachings of theirs.  They have no idea the damage there teachings have done to the truth, thank GOD he has brought us out of those false Trinitarian concepts. You are a true warrior for Jesus and the FATHER SIS.  The Spirit of SOUNDNESS is Certainly with you and can easily be seen in your posts. Keep up the (good) work. Peace and love to you and yours Jodi……………….gene Gene, Please explain Paul's statement: “All things were created BY Him and FOR Him” (Colossians  1:16). thinker Can I answer Jack? The earth was created for righteous men to dwell upon it, in peace and harmony. Is Not Jesus, the Son of man, the offspring of David,  returning to earth to destroy all enemies and create a paradise? Is it not our Heavenly Father's desire that man lives an enjoyable life on earth amongst His beautiful creation? 2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, butaccording to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: In the beginning the Father created the heavens and the earth by His knowledge of the coming Christ, and He created it for the Christ and his brethren! By CHRIST and for CHRIST, was the earth created. Scripture does not say that the Father had a god son make the heavens and the earth for the god son. Jack what do you think we will be doing on earth when paradise is established?  We will be eating and drinking, singing and dancing, exploring and learning, inventing and designing. We will be enjoying nature and life to the fullest, as it was intended for MAN from the beginning.

Joi Lee,
You are explaining Paul's statement away. The Father Himself said to the Son,
     

Quote

“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;      A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.       9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;      Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You      With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”   10 And:        “ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,      And the heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS.

To the Son the Father said, “the heavens are the work of YOUR hands.“

And Christ is also the ROOT of David as I have already shown.

thinker

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,10:36)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 18 2009,10:00) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,09:41) WorshippingJesus asked Jodi: Quote Jodi Please show us scripture that says Jesus was created! WJ Jodi's reply: Quote 2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. Jodi, This passage is taliking about David's son Solomon. thinker Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? 2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. Jodi Lee, The prophecy in the first instance refers to David's son Solomon. It had its ultimate fulfillment in Christ. 1 Kings 8:14-21:14 Then the king turned around and blessed the whole assembly of Israel, while all the assembly of Israel was standing. 15 And he said: “Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, who spoke with His mouth to my father David, and with His hand has fulfilled it, saying, 16 ‘Since the day that I brought My people Israel out of Egypt, I have chosen no city from any tribe of Israel in which to build a house, that My name might be there; but I chose David to be over My people Israel.’ 17 Now it was in the heart of my father David to build a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel. 18 But the LORD said to my father David, ‘Whereas it was in your heart to build a temple for My name, you did well that it was in your heart. 19 Nevertheless you shall not build the temple, but your son who will COME OUT OF YOUR BODY, he shall build the temple for My name.’ 20 So the LORD has fulfilled His word which He spoke; and I have filled the position of my father David, and sit on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised; and I have built a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel. 21 And there I have made a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD which He made with our fathers, when He brought them out of the land of Egypt. Please note that Solomon identifies himself as the son who would “come out of David's body” as spoken by the Lord in 2 Samuel 7:12. Therefore, you may not invoke 2 Samuel as a “proof text” for the supposed origin of Christ. Paul explicitly said that Christ created all things, “All things were created BY Him and FOR Him” Again, the prophecy refers to Solomon in the first instance though it is ultimately fulfilled in Christ. To be honest I find that I am surprised by my having to tell you this. SOLOMON SAID THAT HE HIMSELF WAS THE FULFILLMENT “AS THE LORD PROMISED.” IF THAT PROMISE IS NOT FOUND IN 2 SAMUEL 7:14 THEN WHERE IS IT FOUND? thinker

Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You“? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?

Ps 2:7 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

Ac 13:33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'

Hebrews is clearly talking about Jesus and it is clearly quoting 2 Samuel 7.

Jack, let's stick with the main point here. Jesus was begotten. He was TO BE a son, he wasn't always in existence. He came into existence when he was born from Mary, however he was clearly foreknown from the beginning before the world was, and as we know YHWH created all things by His knowledge of him and He created all things for him, that he would rule over an earth of peace and harmony. The Father MADE Jesus both Lord and Christ.

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,10:47)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 18 2009,09:57) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,09:36) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 18 2009,09:18) Jodi……..Amen sis. These deluded Trinitarians can't even begin to understand that, it appears like. They just jump form one false concept to another , because they are not established on a strong Foundation, and that is Jesus was and is a Man, Created and brought forth through the loins of King David by GOD himself.  He will return an establish the true Kingdom that will endure for ever. And when His rule of that Kingdom is finished he will turn it over to the Father and Himself become subject to GOD, that GOD (ONE) GOD may be in all and through (ALL), simple no confusion at all when you get the TRINITARIAN Garbage out of the way, it all Fits.  Thank GOD He has delievered us from these Blind teachings of theirs.  They have no idea the damage there teachings have done to the truth, thank GOD he has brought us out of those false Trinitarian concepts. You are a true warrior for Jesus and the FATHER SIS.  The Spirit of SOUNDNESS is Certainly with you and can easily be seen in your posts. Keep up the (good) work. Peace and love to you and yours Jodi……………….gene Gene, Please explain Paul's statement: “All things were created BY Him and FOR Him” (Colossians  1:16). thinker Can I answer Jack? The earth was created for righteous men to dwell upon it, in peace and harmony. Is Not Jesus, the Son of man, the offspring of David,  returning to earth to destroy all enemies and create a paradise? Is it not our Heavenly Father's desire that man lives an enjoyable life on earth amongst His beautiful creation? 2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, butaccording to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: In the beginning the Father created the heavens and the earth by His knowledge of the coming Christ, and He created it for the Christ and his brethren! By CHRIST and for CHRIST, was the earth created. Scripture does not say that the Father had a god son make the heavens and the earth for the god son. Jack what do you think we will be doing on earth when paradise is established?  We will be eating and drinking, singing and dancing, exploring and learning, inventing and designing. We will be enjoying nature and life to the fullest, as it was intended for MAN from the beginning. Joi Lee, You are explaining Paul's statement away. The Father Himself said to the Son,       Quote “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;      A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.       9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;      Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You      With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”   10 And:        “ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,      And the heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS. To the Son the Father said, “the heavens are the work of YOUR hands.“ And Christ is also the ROOT of David as I have already shown. thinker

We have gone over this before.

Ps 8:6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,

Ps 92:4 For You, Lord, have made me glad through Your work; I will triumph in the works of Your hands.

Ps 138:8 The Lord will perfect that which concerns me; Your mercy, O Lord, endures forever; Do not forsake the works of Your hands.

Ps 143:5 I remember the days of old; I meditate on all Your works; I muse on the work of Your hands.

Heb 2:7 You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands.

The author of Hebrews as well as the readers knew full well that it was YHWH the FATHER who created the heavens and the earth by His hands as we are repeatedly told. The following verse would be easily recognized as being about the Father. Jesus did in fact CHANGE, he went from a mortal to having eternal life.

Hebrews 10:10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”

Psalms 102:12 And Thou, O Jehovah, to the age abidest, And Thy memorial to all generations. 13 Thou — Thou risest — Thou pitiest Zion, For the time to favour her, For the appointed time hath come. 14 For Thy servants have been pleased with her stones, And her dust they favour. 15 And nations fear the name of Jehovah, And all kings of the earth Thine honour, 16 For Jehovah hath builded Zion, He hath been seen in His honour, 17 He turned unto the prayer of the destitute, And He hath not despised their prayer. 18 This is written for a later generation, And the people created do praise Jah. 19 For He hath looked From the high place of His sanctuary. Jehovah from heaven unto earth looked attentively, 20 To hear the groan of the prisoner, To loose sons of death, 21 To declare in Zion the name of Jehovah, And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 In the peoples being gathered together, And the kingdoms — to serve Jehovah. 23 He hath humbled in the way my power, He hath shortened my days. 24 I say, `My God, take me not up in the midst of my days,' Through all generations [are] Thine years. 25 Beforetime the earth Thou didst found, And the work of Thy hands are the heavens. 26 They — They perish, and Thou remainest, And all of them as a garment become old, As clothing Thou changest them, And they are changed. 27 And Thou art the same, and Thine years are not finished.

[KangarooJack]

Jodi Lee said:

Quote

Jonah said, “Out of the belly of sheol I cried”,  because Jonah FELT as if he was on the brink of death in the belly of the whale. He felt no hope for life, as if he might as well be dead. Yah, there's a lot of LIFE to be lived in the belly of a whale, so much to do and see…on the contrary in the whale's belly your life is OVER you might as well be dead. You consider the belly of the whale paradise? Now I am really confused.

Jodi Lee,
The word “paradise” was a Persian word which meant “garden” and it indicated the place of the righteous dead. It was a compartment in sheol where the souls of the righteous dead went and awaited the resurrection.

Jodi Lee:

Quote

Give me OT scripture that says people go down alive to the grave?

When did I say people went to the grave alive? I said they went to sheol or the abyss alive. The scripture repeatedly says that they “slept.” People who sleep are alive. I guess you don't believe in soul sleep.

Jodi Lee:

Quote

Give me one OT scripture that says that it is only man's body that dies?

Sheol takes people alive:

“10 My son, if sinners entice you,
     Do not consent.
      11 If they say, “Come with us,
     Let us lie in wait to shed blood;
     Let us lurk secretly for the innocent without cause;
      12 Let us swallow them ALIVE like SHEOL,
     And whole, like those who go down to the PIT;

Note that Solomon just assumes that people go down to sheol alive. Jonah was in the belly of the fish alive which was likened to being in sheol alive. Jesus' death was likened to Jonah's being in the belly of the fish. The righteous went to paradise (or garden) to await the resurrection. The thief went to the garden with Jesus. The wicked probably went to the pit and awaited the judgment. There were two compartments to sheol. The garden for the righteous and the pit for the wicked.

Again, Jesus said that He would raise up the temple of His body. Did He tell a lie?

I want to add that sheol (hades) has been cast into the lake of fire. The saints go straight to heaven now in the new covenant age. The wicked go straight to judgment.

This is all for tonight.

thinker

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,11:36)

Jodi Lee said: Quote Jonah said, “Out of the belly of sheol I cried”,  because Jonah FELT as if he was on the brink of death in the belly of the whale. He felt no hope for life, as if he might as well be dead. Yah, there's a lot of LIFE to be lived in the belly of a whale, so much to do and see…on the contrary in the whale's belly your life is OVER you might as well be dead. You consider the belly of the whale paradise? Now I am really confused. Jodi Lee, The word “paradise” was a Persian word which meant “garden” and it indicated the place of the righteous dead. It was a compartment in sheol where the souls of the righteous dead went and awaited the resurrection. Jodi Lee: Quote Give me OT scripture that says people go down alive to the grave? When did I say people went to the grave alive? I said they went to sheol or the abyss alive. The scripture repeatedly says that they “slept.” People who sleep are alive. I guess you don't believe in soul sleep. Jodi Lee: Quote Give me one OT scripture that says that it is only man's body that dies? Sheol takes people alive: “10 My son, if sinners entice you,      Do not consent.       11 If they say, “Come with us,      Let us lie in wait to shed blood;      Let us lurk secretly for the innocent without cause;       12 Let us swallow them ALIVE like SHEOL,      And whole, like those who go down to the PIT; Note that Solomon just assumes that people go down to sheol alive. Jonah was in the belly of the fish alive which was likened to being in sheol alive. Jesus' death was likened to Jonah's being in the belly of the fish. The righteous went to paradise (or garden) to await the resurrection. The thief went to the garden with Jesus. The wicked probably went to the pit and awaited the judgment. There were two compartments to sheol. The garden for the righteous and the pit for the wicked. Again, Jesus said that He would raise up the temple of His body. Did He tell a lie? I want to add that sheol (hades) has been cast into the lake of fire. The saints go straight to heaven now in the new covenant age. The wicked go straight to judgment. This is all for tonight. thinker

Really?

That's all you could come up with? How do you make sense of the scriptures I gave with Proverbs 1:12, do you just ignore them since they don't fit with your ridiculous interpretation of Proverbs 1:12?

Proverbs 1:10 My son, if sinners entice you, Do not consent. 11 If they say, “Come with us, Let us lie in wait to shed blood; Let us lurk secretly for the innocent without cause; 12 Let us swallow them alive like Sheol, And whole, like those who go down to the Pit; 13 We shall find all kinds of precious possessions, We shall fill our houses with spoil; 14 Cast in your lot among us, Let us all have one purse”– 15 My son, do not walk in the way with them, Keep your foot from their path; 16 For their feet run to evil, And they make haste to shed blood. 17 Surely, in vain the net is spread In the sight of any bird; 18 But they lie in wait for their own blood, They lurk secretly for their own lives. 19 So are the ways of everyone who is greedy for gain; It takes away the life of its owners.

How in the world does the above teach that when a person dies their body dies in the grave but some other part of them stays alive in the grave and receives a reward or punishment?

If anything, the comparison is, that which the sinners do to the innocent people is like that of what the grave does to people. As the grave swallows people alive, the sinners swallow people alive. The sinners are said to be shedding people's blood, in other words they are KILLING them, just like the grave would do to someone if you put them in there ALIVE, they would soon die of suffocation. If you cast a person alive to a blood thirsty greedy robber that person would certainly get swallowed up by them in death, if you cast a person alive into a grave they would also obviously die.  

Show me scripture that speaks of sheol having two compartments, one for the good and one for the wicked?

The following scripture disagrees with your idea that other people are in heaven.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

[Anonymous]

www. Gotquestions.org What does it mean that Jesus is the 'first-born' over Creation?”

Answer: In a letter to the church at Colossae, the Apostle Paul gave an intriguing description of Jesus. In it, he explained Christ's relationship to God the Father and to creation. Some have claimed that Paul’s description of Christ as the first-born of creation means that Jesus was created — not eternal, not God. Such a doctrine, however, conflicts with the rest of the Bible. Christ could not be both Creator and created; John 1 clearly names Him Creator. Let’s take a careful look at the passage where Jesus is called the first-born.

Colossians 1:15-21
“And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”

Jesus is God
Christ’s relationship to His Father begins with the phrase “the image of the invisible God.” The word “image,” meaning copy or likeness, expresses Christ's deity. This word involves more than a resemblance, more than a representation. He is God! Although He took on human form, He has the exact nature of His Father (Hebrews 1:3).

The “Word” of John 1:1 is a divine Person, not a philosophical abstraction. In the incarnation, the invisible God became visible in Christ; deity was clothed with humanity (Matthew 17:2). God is in Christ: visible, audible, approachable, knowable, and available. All that God is, Christ is.

Jesus is Lord of Creation
The description “first-born of all creation” speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4).

Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word “first-born” (Greek word “prototokos”) signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.

Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: “I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).

Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

Thus, the phrase “first-born of all creation” proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!

[Anonymous]

Why wasn't Jesus named Immanuel?”

Answer: In the prophecy of the virgin birth, Isaiah 7:14, the prophet Isaiah declared, “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel.” This prophecy refers to the birth of Jesus in Matthew 1:22-23, “All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 'The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel' which means, 'God with us.'” This does not mean, however, that the Messiah’s name would actually be Immanuel.

There are many names given to Jesus using the phrase “He shall be called,” both in the Old and New Testaments. This was a common way of saying that people would refer to Him in these various ways. Isaiah prophesied of the Messiah, “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6). None of these titles was Jesus’ actual name, but these were descriptions people would use to refer to Him forever. Luke tells us Jesus “shall be called the Son of the Highest” (Luke 1:32) and “son of God” (1:35) and “the prophet of the Highest” (1:76), but none of these was His name.

In two different places, the prophet Jeremiah says in referring to the coming Messiah, “And this is His name by which He shall be called, JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS” (Jeremiah 23:5-6; 33:15-16). Now we know that God, the Father, is named Jehovah. Jesus was never actually called Jehovah as though it was His name, but His role was that of bringing the righteousness of Jehovah to those who would believe in Him, exchanging that righteousness for our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). Therefore, this is one of the many titles or “names” which belong to Him.

In the same way, to say that Jesus would be called “Immanuel” means Jesus is God and that He dwelt among us in His incarnation and that He is always with us. Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus was God making His dwelling among us (John 1:1,14). No, Jesus' name was not Immanuel, but Jesus was the meaning of Immanuel, “God with us.” Immanuel is one of the many titles for Jesus, a description of who He is.

[GeneBalthrop]

Thinker…..Scripture says the dead know nothing in the day they die their thought (PARISH) that means gone for ever. Why because all thought (is) spirit, and all spirit is from GOD, and when a man dies the spirit he had go back to he who gave it, (GOD)> He exists no more except in the mind and POWER of GOD. His flesh corrupts and returns to dust or ashes . He is truely GONE forever unless the FATHER (restores and remakes HIM) he will never return again. Fear him who can destory (BOTH) BODY and SOUL (IN) the GRAVE. That is easily done He just simply does not resurrect and remake you. In that case you would be gone forever, but those he regenerates and Gives new bodies and adds Spirit back into them will live. It is of the most important we obtain to the resurrection. Had He not raised Jesus, He would have still been dead.  Giving Jesus regenerative powers from death is a great false teaching, Jesus was dead like rover dead all over, it was the Father who raised HIM not His self. This truth need to be clearly understood in order for us to get the proper understanding about life and the resurrection. Go read the valley of dead Bones and see what the dying are saying as far as there concerned its over for them. Death is real and it is final, for all, and unless GOD restores us we simply will no longer exist in any form. IMO

peace……………….gene

[KangarooJack]

Jodi Lee said:

Quote

Jack, let's stick with the main point here. Jesus was begotten. He was TO BE a son, he wasn't always in existence. He came into existence when he was born from Mary, however he was clearly foreknown from the beginning before the world was, and as we know YHWH created all things by His knowledge of him and He created all things for him, that he would rule over an earth of peace and harmony. The Father MADE Jesus both Lord and Christ.

Jodi Lee,
Yeah! Let's stick to the main point. The point is that He was EXALTED and that He was begotten WHEN He was exalted. His name as “Son” referred to His office as the mediator of the covenant and not His origin.

Read it again Jodi. It says that He was begotten WHEN He was exalted. He did not come into existence when He was exalted.  

The Father has clearly said that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and that He created the heavens with HIS OWN HANDS (1:8-10).

You explained the Father's words away and did a poor job of it too.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Jodi Lee wrote:

Quote

Psalms 102:12 And Thou, O Jehovah, to the age abidest, And Thy memorial to all generations. 13 Thou — Thou risest — Thou pitiest Zion, For the time to favour her, For the appointed time hath come. 14 For Thy servants have been pleased with her stones, And her dust they favour. 15 And nations fear the name of Jehovah, And all kings of the earth Thine honour, 16 For Jehovah hath builded Zion, He hath been seen in His honour, 17 He turned unto the prayer of the destitute, And He hath not despised their prayer. 18 This is written for a later generation, And the people created do praise Jah. 19 For He hath looked From the high place of His sanctuary. Jehovah from heaven unto earth looked attentively, 20 To hear the groan of the prisoner, To loose sons of death, 21 To declare in Zion the name of Jehovah, And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 In the peoples being gathered together, And the kingdoms — to serve Jehovah. 23 He hath humbled in the way my power, He hath shortened my days. 24 I say, `My God, take me not up in the midst of my days,' Through all generations [are] Thine years. 25 Beforetime the earth Thou didst found, And the work of Thy hands are the heavens. 26 They — They perish, and Thou remainest, And all of them as a garment become old, As clothing Thou changest them, And they are changed. 27 And Thou art the same, and Thine years are not finished.

Jodi Lee,
You over look one BIG point by the author to the Hebrews. He said that the Father applied Psalm 102 to Christ. David was speaking of Jehovah when He spoke those words. But the Father through the author to the Hebrews applied it to Christ.

Did you catch that Jodi? THE FATHER HIMSELF APPLIED PSALM 102 TO CHRIST

Quote

8 But TO THE SON He says:      “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;      A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.       9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;      Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You      With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”    10 And:  “ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,      And the heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS[/b].

Give it up Jodi! The Father said that Psalm 102 was speaking of Christ. So according to the Father Himself the Son is Jehovah! I take the Father's word over yours any old day.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Jodi Lee said:

Quote

That's all you could come up with? How do you make sense of the scriptures I gave with Proverbs 1:12, do you just ignore them since they don't fit with your ridiculous interpretation of Proverbs 1:12? Proverbs 1:10 My son, if sinners entice you, Do not consent. 11 If they say, “Come with us, Let us lie in wait to shed blood; Let us lurk secretly for the innocent without cause; 12 Let us swallow them alive like Sheol, And whole, like those who go down to the Pit; 13 We shall find all kinds of precious possessions, We shall fill our houses with spoil; 14 Cast in your lot among us, Let us all have one purse”– 15 My son, do not walk in the way with them, Keep your foot from their path; 16 For their feet run to evil, And they make haste to shed blood. 17 Surely, in vain the net is spread In the sight of any bird; 18 But they lie in wait for their own blood, They lurk secretly for their own lives. 19 So are the ways of everyone who is greedy for gain; It takes away the life of its owners.

Jodi Lee,
No that's not all I could come up with. Do you remember that you asked for only one verse from the old testament. I should point out to you that you are out of the mainstream by saying that souls are annihilated at death. On this issue you side with the Saducees while Jesus and Paul sided with the Pharisees

Solomon said that sinners seek to swallow up the righteous AS sheol swallows up people ALIVE. It's only a comparison Sis!  Solomon assumed that sheol took men ALIVE. Please don't say to me, “Is that all you got.” I don't lay out my whole argument in one post like you do because I want people to read my whole post. I don't write a dissertation in each post as you because people would be more likely to scan over them too quickly.

I have more. Geez! I asked you to assume that I know more than you. Please!!

Jodi Lee:

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How in the world does the above teach that when a person dies their body dies in the grave but some other part of them stays alive in the grave and receives a reward or punishment?

I did NOT say that a part of them stays alive in the grave. I said that they go down to “sheol” alive. I said that there were two compartments one for the righteous and one for the wicked. The thief went with Jesus to the one which was called “the garden” and the wicked went to the other called “the pit.”

You only make yourself look bad when you keep putting words in my mouth.

Now for more biblical AND historical evidence.

BIBLICAL EVIDENCE: Numbers 16:30,33:

“30 But if the LORD creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down ALIVE into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the LORD.”
31 Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 33 So they and all those with them went down ALIVE into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly.

Note that it says two times that people go down into the pit (sheol) ALIVE.

HISTORICAL EVIDENCE:

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SHEOL The Hebrew word Sheol is found 66 times in the Old Testament. While the Old Testament consistently refers to the body as going to the grave, it always refers to the soul or spirit of man as going to Sheol…. THE LEXICOGRAPHICAL MATERIAL Brown, Driver and Briggs…A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament… define Sheol as: “the underworld… whither man descends at death” (p. 982). They trace the origin of Sheol to either sha-al, which means the spirit world to which mediums directed their questions to the departed, or sha-al, which refers to the hollow place in the earth where the souls of men went at death. Langenscheidt's Hebrew/English Dictionary to the Old Testament (p. 337) defines Sheol as: 'netherworld, realm of the dead, Hades.' The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia in Vol. IV, p. 2761, defines Sheol as 'the unseen world, the state or abode of the dead, and is the equivalent of the Greek: Hades.' Keil and Delitzsch state that 'Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death; it is an infinitive form from sha-al, to demand, the demanding, applied to the place which inexorably summons all men into its shade.' The lexicographical evidence is so clear that the great Princeton scholar, B. B. Warfield, stated that with modern Hebrew scholars, there is no 'hesitation to allow with all heartiness that Israel from the beginning of its recorded history cherished the most settled conviction of the PERSISTENCE of the soul in life after death…The body is laid in the grave and the soul departs to Sheol.' George Eldon Ladd in The New Bible Dictionary (p. 380), comments: 'In the Old Testament, MAN DOES NOT CEASE TO EXIST AT DEATH, but his soul descends to Sheol.' Modern scholarship understands the word Sheol to refer to the place where the soul or spirit of man goes at death. None of the lexicographical literature defines Sheol as referring to the grave or to passing into nonexistence. COMPARATIVE STUDIES In order to understand what a certain word meant in an ancient language, it is sometimes helpful to find any parallel words in the other languages of that time. Thus comparative studies of Sheol have been done which demonstrate that Sheol's parallels in other languages meant the place where the soul of man goes at death. No research has found a place where Sheol's parallel means the grave or nonexistence. For example, The Ugaritic 'ars' and Accadian 'su alu' clearly refer to the netherworld. The Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, and Greek parallels to Sheol clearly meant the place of departed spirits. The Ethiopian 'Si'ol' cannot mean anything other than the netherworld, the place of CONSCIOUS life after death. THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT What is important about comparative studies is that they place biblical words in their historical context. The word Sheol should thus be understood in terms of what it meant in the Hebrew language and by its parallel in the other languages of that time. Why? When God wanted Israel to believe something which was unique and contrary to what the surrounding culture believed [and soul sleep would be unique and contrary], He always clearly condemned and forbade the pagan beliefs and then stressed the uniqueness of the new concept. For example, in order to establish monotheism, God repeatedly and clearly condemned the pagan concept of polytheism and stressed monotheism. While God clearly condemned polytheism in the Old Testament, AT NO TIME DID HE EVER CONDEMN A EBLIEF IN A CONSCIOUS AFTERLIFE. At no time did God ever put forth the concept of annihilation or nonexistence as the fat e of man's soul at death [nor condemn the concept of a conscious afterlife]. Also, when Israel had a unique and contrary belief, the pagan societies around Israel would use this belief as the grounds to persecute the Jews. Thus the Jews were persecuted for rejecting polytheism and believing in monotheism. Daniel's three friends who were thrown into a fiery furnace are an excellent example of such persecution. Yet, where in recorded history did pagan religions or societies persecute the Jews because they denied a conscious afterlife? To think that the Jews could go against the universally held concept of a conscious afterlife and that the pagans would not seize upon this as a pretense for persecution is absurd. Since the universality of belief in a CONSCIOUS afterlife is irrefutable, and there is no evidence that Israel deviated from this belief, we must assume that the Old Testament taught a CONSCIOUS afterlife in Sheol as the fate of man's soul or spirit….

I refer you to the link below for the whole article on sheol and hades.

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/sheol_hades.htm

NOW ANSWER MY ORIGINAL QUESTION: DID JESUS LIE WHEN HE SAID THAT HE WOULD RAISE UP HIS BODY?

thinker

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