The messenger of jehovah was jehovah

Participant

Quote (Cato @ Sep. 17 2009,07:27)

The tradition of sitting on the right side is meant as one of honor, a trusted servant or even friend, but not a position of equality.

Cato

The reality is Jesus has “All authority and power”! Jesus is not living a tradition!

Joseph was Pharaoh to the people because he had every thing that the Pharaoh had, but the throne.

Not so with Jesus! Jesus not only has the throne but he is the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords”!

The Father has given all things to him, and that does not mean that Jesus has all things available to him! He is the boss right now! He makes the decisions! He has all things in his hands. He is in control. He is sovereign.

All things were made by him and for him!

It is amazing to me that men cannot see what that means!

They can call other men, or angels gods, yet cannot call Jesus “The Mighty God”!

Jesus is Lord and God of all! The Father says so, and the proof of it is he has it all and is in complete control!

Tell me cato, you say that the right hand position is not one of equality.

Is this true of a King and his Son who inherits the throne?

Can you tell us in what way Jesus is not equal to the Father?

When a natural Son grows into full maturity and inherits all things from his Father and the Kingdom has passed to him, is he not equal to whom and what his Father was?

Jesus is the “ONLY SON OF GOD”! Really you guys should learn what that means. This is why the Angels are commanded to worship him! And you should too!

September 17, 2009 at 3:40 pm#146357

Participant

Quote (Cato @ Sep. 17 2009,23:27)

The tradition of sitting on the right side is meant as one of honor, a trusted servant or even friend, but not a position of equality.

Cato said:

Quote

The tradition of sitting on the right side is meant as one of honor, a trusted servant or even friend, but not a position of equality

Cato,
We are not interested in the definitions that dictionaries give for the term “right hand man.” We are concerned with what the expression meant to the first Hebrew Christians. Christ is equal with the Father in authority while at His right hand. It is not until Christ yields that authority at the Father's right hand that He becomes subject Himself. If not subject then He has EQUAL authority until He is subjected. Thus “right hand man” according to scripture is a position of EQUALITY.

A learned man such as yourself should be able to comprhend.

thinker

September 17, 2009 at 3:54 pm#146359

Participant

Cato said:

Quote

The tradition of sitting on the right side is meant as one of honor, a trusted servant or even friend, but not a position of equality

WorshippingJesus replied:

Quote

The reality is Jesus has “All authority and power”! Jesus is not living a tradition!

Joseph was Pharaoh to the people because he had every thing that the Pharaoh had, but the throne.

Not so with Jesus! Jesus not only has the throne but he is the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords”!

All things were made by him and for him!

Keith,
Excellent point bro! Jesus has the throne whereas Joseph did not. The throne is the throne of God and of the Lamb (Rev. 22:1). Paul said that we have been delivered from the power of darkness and have been translated into the kingdom of the Son of His love. It is the Son's kingdom.

Paul said that Christ created thrones FOR Himself (Colossians 1:16-17).

You have correctly pointed out that Jesus is not merely a “right hand man.” He is the SON at God's right hand.

Mucho big difference!

thinker

September 17, 2009 at 4:18 pm#146362

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 17 2009,08:59)

Jodi

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 16 2009,15:01)

Jesus had NO confidence in flesh, he had no confidence in the ways of man, but he had ALL confidence in God and His ways. If Christ is IN us, then we too have no confidence in the ways of man, we have all confidence in our Heavenly Father!

Excuse my french but what the hell does this mean?

Why do you need a thousand words to answer a simple question or scripture?

Are you saying that you have no confidence in Jesus but only the Father?

Can you just answer this simple question without a thousand words Jodi…

Is Jesus in you or not?

WJ, could you give me your understanding of what it MEANS to have Jesus in you, with scripture?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,* who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Ro 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Ro 7:25 I thank God–through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Jas 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Hebrews 10:7, 9I come to do thy will, 0 God
John 4:34I do the will of him
John 5:30The will of him that sent me
John 6:38Not to do mine own will
John 8:29Those things that please him
Luke 22:42Not my will, but thine
Romans 5:19Through the obedience of one

Luke 2:52Jesus increased in wisdom
John 5:19What he seeth the Father do
John 8:28As the Father hath taught me

John 5:19Son can do nothing of himself
John 5:30Of mine own self do nothing
John 8:28I do nothing of myself
John 14:10He doeth the works

Christ, the man who was promised to come of the seed of David, does NOTHING of himself….the Father does the works in Jesus. Christ does not follow his own will, he follows the Father’s, who ALONE is said to be the One True God. Christ receives wisdom from the Father (who alone is wise) and he learned obedience from the Father.

Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned– 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Our master, Jesus Christ is the man who is obedient to God. Is he obedient to himself, NO, he is obedient to his Father. The God in the above scripture represents in every case the Father. Through the one MAN, we are reconciled back to the One True God the Father. Through what the Father accomplished in the ONE man, we have received salvation!

Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Christ the MAN is t
he chief cornerstone that reconciles us back to his Father giving us access by one Spirit to Him, so that we can be part of the dwelling place of our Heavenly Father, the One True God.

Colossians 1:12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him toreconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

The doctrine of Christ is that he was the MAN who reconciled us back to the FATHER, not the Father Son and Holy Spirit as trinity, but reconciled back to the FATHER!

Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

WJ, your doctrine is foolishness and ANTICHRIST. The whole point of Christ is for us to believe that he was and IS a MAN, but you teach he is the One True God. The whole point is that we believe that Jesus was the one whom the FATHER said HE would bring into the world. A man of the seed of David was to be a SON unto YHWH, the man of the seed of David was to be the CHRIST. The One True God was NOT to become a man, and the One True God was not to become the Christ.

The MAN, Jesus, firstborn of the dead, was exalted to the right hand TO BE PRINCE and SAVIOR, to give repentance to Israel, because the Father (YHWH) wanted a HIGH PRIEST to be a MAN that was in every way tempted as we are.

Ac 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle–I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying–a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

WJ, how many times do I have to post 1 Timothy 2:5, before you will believe it’s simple clear truth? Why do you continue to teach antichrist that Jesus is the One True God, and NOT a man made of FLESH, as he said he was when he was raised from the dead?

Jesus was NOT part of the God that spoke to the fathers, that is said to be the Father of Jesus, NOT the Father of Jesus, and the god son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is NOT part of the God that brought Christ into the world, it was the FATHER of Jesus who brought Jesus into the world. Jesus did not bring himself into the world. It was the Father’s plan that one MAN would become a savior, and that man would die and be raised from the dead and carry out the Father’s plan of bringing salvation to the world and return one day to destroy all enemies.

Christ NEVER says that he came to reconcile the world back to himself, because he is actually the Father too.

September 17, 2009 at 4:32 pm#146366

Participant

Quote (Cato @ Sep. 17 2009,23:27)

right hand
the most important position next to someone: the place of honor at his host's right hand. an efficient or indispensable assistant
Noun 1. right-hand man – the most helpful assistant
chief assistant, man Friday
assistant, helper, help, supporter – a person who contributes to the fulfillment of a need or furtherance of an effort or purpose; “my invaluable assistant”; “they hired additional help to finish the work”

The tradition of sitting on the right side is meant as one of honor, a trusted servant or even friend, but not a position of equality.

Excellent!!

According to trinitarians we are suppose to think that Jesus is his own Father and that he exalted himself so he could sit at his own right hand.

September 17, 2009 at 4:46 pm#146368

Participant

Jodi Lee said:

Quote

According to trinitarians we are suppose to think that Jesus is his own Father and that he exalted himself so he could sit at his own right hand.

Jodi Lee,
All you have to do is show where I or Keith have said or implied that Jesus is His own Father and that He exalted Himself at His own right hand. Substantiate your charges or be quiet!

You were raked over the coals yesterday and all you have left in your arsenal are charges you don't even bother to prove.

thinker

September 17, 2009 at 4:57 pm#146370

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,04:46)

Jodi Lee said:

Quote

According to trinitarians we are suppose to think that Jesus is his own Father and that he exalted himself so he could sit at his own right hand.

Jodi Lee,
All you have to do is show where I or Keith have said or implied that Jesus is His own Father and that He exalted Himself at His own right hand. Substantiate your charges or be quiet!

You were raked over the coals yesterday and all you have left in your arsenal are charges you don't even bother to prove.

thinker

Raked over the coals yesterday! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Yesterday was nothing but PURE ANTICHRIST doctrine.

Answer this simple question WHO is YHWH, is he Jesus or is he the Father of Jesus?

September 17, 2009 at 4:58 pm#146371

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 17 2009,12:32)

Quote (Cato @ Sep. 17 2009,23:27)

right hand
the most important position next to someone: the place of honor at his host's right hand. an efficient or indispensable assistant
Noun 1. right-hand man – the most helpful assistant
chief assistant, man Friday
assistant, helper, help, supporter – a person who contributes to the fulfillment of a need or furtherance of an effort or purpose; “my invaluable assistant”; “they hired additional help to finish the work”

The tradition of sitting on the right side is meant as one of honor, a trusted servant or even friend, but not a position of equality.

Excellent!!

According to trinitarians we are suppose to think that Jesus is his own Father and that he exalted himself so he could sit at his own right hand.

Jodi

Did you forget this one?…

Jack says to Jodi…

Guess what young Miss Jodi Lee? The new testament says that Jesus Himself PARTICIPATES in the subjugation of His enemies.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 (New King James Version)

Quote

Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For HE must reign until HE has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Did you catch that Missy? It says that the Son both delivers the kingdom AND puts an end to all rule and authority. Paul went on to say that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Hebrews clearly says that Christ destroys the devil who has the power of death (Hebrews 2:14).
So Paul said that Christ brings an end to all His enemies with death being the last enemy to be abolished. Hebrews 2 says that Christ destroys him who has the power of death, that is, the devil. Therefore, Christ PARTICIPATES with the Father in the subjugation of His enemies.

September 17, 2009 at 5:14 pm#146372

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 18 2009,04:58)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 17 2009,12:32)

Quote (Cato @ Sep. 17 2009,23:27)

right hand
the most important position next to someone: the place of honor at his host's right hand. an efficient or indispensable assistant
Noun 1. right-hand man – the most helpful assistant
chief assistant, man Friday
assistant, helper, help, supporter – a person who contributes to the fulfillment of a need or furtherance of an effort or purpose; “my invaluable assistant”; “they hired additional help to finish the work”

The tradition of sitting on the right side is meant as one of honor, a trusted servant or even friend, but not a position of equality.

Excellent!!

According to trinitarians we are suppose to think that Jesus is his own Father and that he exalted himself so he could sit at his own right hand.

Jodi

Did you forget this one?…

Jack says to Jodi…

Guess what young Miss Jodi Lee? The new testament says that Jesus Himself PARTICIPATES in the subjugation of His enemies.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 (New King James Version)

Quote

That's all great!! Yes Jesus participates DUH! I NEVER said that he didn't. Show me where I said Jesus does not participate.

The WHOLE argument is that Jack says that Jesus being given ALL authority means that he is under NO ONE, not even his Father.

My stance is that Jesus is still under the Father, the whole point of his authority is to carry out the plan of the Father.

Acts 5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Mt 22:44 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” '?

YHWH, who ALONE is wise, who ALONE is the one True God, had a plan to make a MAN a savior. When that man was raised from the dead, as was the plan of the Father, it was the plan of the Father to use that man to bring salvation and destroy enemies.

Jesus was exalted to the right hand of the Father so that he could complete the Father's will. Sitting at the right hand of the Father, Jesus has all the powers of the Father, and it is through these powers that Christ is able to have authority over all flesh so that he can save people and destroy enemies….thus carrying out the Father's plans.

September 17, 2009 at 5:21 pm#146373

Participant

Keith and Jack,

Who is CHRIST?

Is he NOT the MAN created by the Father to carry out the Father's plans?

September 17, 2009 at 5:25 pm#146374

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 17 2009,13:14)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 18 2009,04:58)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 17 2009,12:32)

Quote (Cato @ Sep. 17 2009,23:27)

right hand
the most important position next to someone: the place of honor at his host's right hand. an efficient or indispensable assistant
Noun 1. right-hand man – the most helpful assistant
chief assistant, man Friday
assistant, helper, help, supporter – a person who contributes to the fulfillment of a need or furtherance of an effort or purpose; “my invaluable assistant”; “they hired additional help to finish the work”

The tradition of sitting on the right side is meant as one of honor, a trusted servant or even friend, but not a position of equality.

Excellent!!

According to trinitarians we are suppose to think that Jesus is his own Father and that he exalted himself so he could sit at his own right hand.

Jodi

Did you forget this one?…

Jack says to Jodi…

Guess what young Miss Jodi Lee? The new testament says that Jesus Himself PARTICIPATES in the subjugation of His enemies.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 (New King James Version)

Quote

That's all great!! Yes Jesus participates DUH! I NEVER said that he didn't. Show me where I said Jesus does not participate.

The WHOLE argument is that Jack says that Jesus being given ALL authority means that he is under NO ONE, not even his Father.

My stance is that Jesus is still under the Father, the whole point of his authority is to carry out the plan of the Father.

Acts 5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Mt 22:44 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” '?

Jodi

But you are missing the point that Jesus is not yet subject to the Father!

Seriously, would the infinite God give infinite power and authority to a mere man?

Better yet, can a finite being possibly contain infinite authority and power?

September 17, 2009 at 5:26 pm#146375

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 18 2009,04:57)

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,04:46)

Jodi Lee said:

Quote

According to trinitarians we are suppose to think that Jesus is his own Father and that he exalted himself so he could sit at his own right hand.

Jodi Lee,
All you have to do is show where I or Keith have said or implied that Jesus is His own Father and that He exalted Himself at His own right hand. Substantiate your charges or be quiet!

You were raked over the coals yesterday and all you have left in your arsenal are charges you don't even bother to prove.

thinker

Raked over the coals yesterday! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Yesterday was nothing but PURE ANTICHRIST doctrine.

Answer this simple question WHO is YHWH, is he Jesus or is he the Father of Jesus?

Jodi Lee,
I am still awaiting your reply.

About your bogus charge that we say that Jesus exalted Himself. Note what Jesus said:

Luke 14:11:
“For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted”.

This is God's own rule! The man who humbles Himself shall be exalted. You are suggesting that God by-passed His own rule in reference to the exaltation of Jesus. He did not by-pass His rule. Paul explicitly said that Jesus “humbled Himself and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross. Therefore, God has HIGHLY EXALTED HIM.”

The Father was bound by His own standards of righteousness and justice to exalt Jesus. It was the Father who exalted Jesus. But He had no choice because it was JUST.

JESUS WAS WORTHY OF BEING EXALTED.

But you deny that Jesus was worthy. You call it “antichrist” doctrine that Christ was exalted as a JUST REWARD!

thinker

September 17, 2009 at 5:33 pm#146376

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 17 2009,13:21)

Keith and Jack,

Who is CHRIST?

Is he NOT the MAN created by the Father to carry out the Father's plans?

Jodi

Please show us scripture that says Jesus was created!

September 17, 2009 at 5:40 pm#146377

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,05:26)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 18 2009,04:57)

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,04:46)

Jodi Lee said:

Quote

According to trinitarians we are suppose to think that Jesus is his own Father and that he exalted himself so he could sit at his own right hand.

Jodi Lee,
All you have to do is show where I or Keith have said or implied that Jesus is His own Father and that He exalted Himself at His own right hand. Substantiate your charges or be quiet!

You were raked over the coals yesterday and all you have left in your arsenal are charges you don't even bother to prove.

thinker

Raked over the coals yesterday! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Yesterday was nothing but PURE ANTICHRIST doctrine.

Answer this simple question WHO is YHWH, is he Jesus or is he the Father of Jesus?

Jodi Lee,
I am still awaiting your reply.

About your bogus charge that we say that Jesus exalted Himself. Note what Jesus said:

Luke 14:11:
“For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted”.

The Father was bound by His own standards of righteousness and justice to exalt Jesus. It was the Father who exalted Jesus. But He had no choice because it was JUST.

JESUS WAS WORTHY OF BEING EXALTED.

But you deny that Jesus was worthy. You call it “antichrist” doctrine that Christ was exalted as a JUST REWARD!

thinker

I do NOT deny that Jesus was worthy

Are you kidding me?

I am defending that Jesus IS in FACT the CHRIST, you say he is the ONE TRUE GOD, I say he is the MAN that the One True God YHWH said He would bring.

What made Jesus WORTHY?

Jesus is worthy because he was the Christ, the MAN that even though he was in every way tempted as we are he denied his flesh and never sinned, so though he died he was not deserving of such, he was deserving of eternal life, so the Father raised him from the dead.

Jack, don't you believe that Jesus was not fully dead, that he played a part in his own resurrection? Remember you argue that when Jesus said “destroy this temple I will raise it up in three days”, that means that by the power of Jesus along with the Father he raised himself?

If Jesus was part of the God that raised Jesus, then I just naturally assumed that you would also believe then that Jesus was also part of the God who exalted Jesus. Therefore as well, if Jesus is part of the God who exalted Jesus to sit at the right hand of God, then Jesus has placed himself at his own right hand.

Sorry if my assumptions are incorrect. Please correct them for me, for I am confused with your doctrine as to when you believe Jesus is God and when you don't.

September 17, 2009 at 6:56 pm#146387

Participant

Jodi Lee said:

Quote

Hi Jodi,
What do you mean by “fully dead?” Men don't cease to exist when they die. Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “living.” Jesus told the thief next to Him “today you shall be with Me in paradise.” This does not sound like “fully dead” to me.

Jesus said that Jonah was a sign of His death. Jonah's being in the belly of the whale for three days corresponded to Jesus' being in sheol for three days. Jonah was in the whale's belly ALIVE. So what do you mean by “fully dead?” Trinitarians are wrongly accused of saying that Jesus did not die like everyone else. But He did die like eveyone else because no one “fully” dies. Bodies fully die but spirits don't. Death is called “sleep” in scripture. One who sleeps is not “fully dead.”

He said that He would raise up His body in three days. If His spirit was alive this was not a problem. If the Son of God had the power to give life to Lazarus' body, then He had the power to give life to His own body.

Jodi Lee:

Quote

It is more a matter of Jesus' particular role in His resurrection. The Father called Him out of the abyss and then Jesus Himself raised up the body. Peter explicitly said that the Father raised Him up out of sheol (or abyss, Acts 2; Rom. 10). Jesus clearly said that He would raise up His body (John 2). It is undeniable that Jesus raised up His body. He explicitly said He would or He was a liar.

As far as His exaltation I have never said that He exalted Himself. I said that He was worthy of it.

Jodi Lee:

Quote

Sorry if my assumptions are incorrect. Please correct them for me, for I am confused with your doctrine as to when you believe Jesus is God and when you don't.

I never said there was a time that Jesus was not God. He was always God in His true self but for a time took He the form of a servant. He lived as though He was not God. Paul said that this was His “mind.”

“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.”

blessings,
thinker

September 17, 2009 at 8:43 pm#146395

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 18 2009,05:33)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 17 2009,13:21)

Keith and Jack,

Who is CHRIST?

Is he NOT the MAN created by the Father to carry out the Father's plans?

Jodi

Please show us scripture that says Jesus was created!

2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.

YHWH is speaking here about in the future He would CREATE a man of whom He would establish an eternal kingdom for. This person, who is later revealed as Jesus of Nazareth, is shown at the time of David not to YET exist. This person who is to come will BE the son of God, and he will be flesh and blood. This person will be created through the direct will and purpose of YHWH. He will not come from the CHANCE of a sperm fertilizing an egg, but will be the product of the power of the Holy Spirit fertilizing a person’s egg at just a precise time designated by YHWH.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, Jesus comes from heaven, his creation was predestined from the beginning before the world was, and he was made through the direct will of YHWH!

Who is the bread from heaven giving life? Some god son coming down becoming an infant, or a man that lived in YHWH as a promise?

Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,

Luke 24:46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

Ac 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus—

Acts 13:30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings–that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.' 34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;

The promise of YHWH came down from heaven through the power of the Holy Spirit producing in the womb of Mary the man of whom YHWH would make both Lord and Christ.

Ac 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Our Heavenly Father CREATED Jesus through the power of His Spirit in Mary’s womb. Our Heavenly Father MADE Jesus our Lord and Christ

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Which son is this? The son trinitarians have made up… the god son, or the Son of the PROMISE, the man born of the seed of David?

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

John 16:31 Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? 32 Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Truly Jesus Christ WAS Created by our Heavenly Father he was Born, Begotten, and Made!

September 17, 2009 at 9:18 pm#146397

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Jodi……..Amen sis. These deluded Trinitarians can't even begin to understand that, it appears like. They just jump form one false concept to another , because they are not established on a strong Foundation, and that is Jesus was and is a Man, Created and brought forth through the loins of King David by GOD himself. He will return an establish the true Kingdom that will endure for ever. And when His rule of that Kingdom is finished he will turn it over to the Father and Himself become subject to GOD, that GOD (ONE) GOD may be in all and through (ALL), simple no confusion at all when you get the TRINITARIAN Garbage out of the way, it all Fits. Thank GOD He has delievered us from these Blind teachings of theirs. They have no idea the damage there teachings have done to the truth, thank GOD he has brought us out of those false Trinitarian concepts. You are a true warrior for Jesus and the FATHER SIS. The Spirit of SOUNDNESS is Certainly with you and can easily be seen in your posts. Keep up the (good) work.

Peace and love to you and yours Jodi……………….gene

September 17, 2009 at 9:32 pm#146399