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David,
I think that perhaps your view of “most people” is tainted by the fact that you go door to door and solicit from people. This is how your religion tries to gain influence with folks towards the gospel (it's one way to do it, certainly not the only way). I know Christians who will shut down a JW at the door. They want nothing to do with them. Does this mean they are less Christian? Because they enjoy their lives and their traditions? I doubt it. But according to your brand of Christianity it does. Who's right?
Quote know a Catholic lady I call on who works for her church and spends hours doing volunteer work. She's always off to do something. But everything she believes is all wrong. I am not allowed to even mention certain things to her, like the idea that Mary may have had other children, something the Bible is extremley clear on…. Yet, she is ethusiastic about her beliefs. Yet, all wrong.
Oh, I guess YOU are the one who is right!!
David, I mean you no disrespect here. I'm only trying to give you a broader view. You and your church are not the only ones with truth. Other's interpret the bible a bit different than you and your religion – are they all wrong and you guys are the only ones that are right?
The topic is manuscripts…..the JW's didn't like how scads of theologians translated the scrolls? Why did they create their own bible? I have a copy of the NWT and refer to it as I do the other's.
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,11:24) I certainly don't want you and other's to get the idea that I think the bible is useless. I do consider the bible to be a word of God. I didn't say THE word of God because I don't believe that the canon and God's mouth were closed at the same time. I respect those who believe it is the only word of God, I just would love it if they could respect my view (this seems a bit harder for some to do). Love,
Mandy
The reason is simple, and its much the same reason I decided to take little stock in the bible anymore. The bible is pretty much an all or nothing deal — either believe it all, or believe none of it. The reason I say that is that you cannot know which parts are true and which parts are not because you have no basis to make such a decision beyond your “gut” feeling. And that feeling will be different for each person.No one truly knows what the various writers were trying to convey. They are all long dead and didn't hang around for interviews. That is the reason for so many sects of the various religions based on the bible: its all speculation.
So you should be envious of those who can take the bible as infallible because they at least know which parts to believe in: all of them. You, on the other hand, are left with a task of picking which parts are right and which are wrong. It is a futile task.
Kevin,
Do you say, “Bah! Humbug!” at Christmastime?
Your negativity regarding the bible is one view of the situation, for sure. However it's not my view.While it's true that I haven't a clue which parts are without error and which parts still contain error – I know the God of which it speaks. I have an intimate relationship with the Almighty and he cares for me in this wonderful Creation. He cares for that starving child in Africa as well. I am not God, therefore I know his ways are higher than mine and beyond figuring out. I trust this process. I am very small, he is God. What I don't know now I'll know later.
If you let the questions overcome you, you will soon be exhausted with any type of faith or hope. We are but men and women. We can love and care for our own. We can extend money to help other's less fortunate. Beyond this……
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,14:21) Kevin, Do you say, “Bah! Humbug!” at Christmastime?
Your negativity regarding the bible is one view of the situation, for sure. However it's not my view.
Why is that you equate my negativity towards the bible to other aspects of my life? Do you suppose that 2/3 of the world is full of miserable people because they don't believe the bible to be true? You are stereo-typing non-Christians into one large basket.Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 21 2008,07:36) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,14:21) Kevin, Do you say, “Bah! Humbug!” at Christmastime?
Your negativity regarding the bible is one view of the situation, for sure. However it's not my view.
Why is that you equate my negativity towards the bible to other aspects of my life? Do you suppose that 2/3 of the world is full of miserable people because they don't believe the bible to be true? You are stereo-typing non-Christians into one large basket.
I know many non-believer's in Christianity, we discuss topics quite often. I have to say that they don't sound as bitter as you do, Kevin. But this is just an observation. Forgive me if you are happy-go-lucky in your personal life. I just don't see it. Our true color's come out whether we are discussing religion, politics or garbage day, it doesn't matter.Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,14:45) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 21 2008,07:36) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,14:21) Kevin, Do you say, “Bah! Humbug!” at Christmastime?
Your negativity regarding the bible is one view of the situation, for sure. However it's not my view.
Why is that you equate my negativity towards the bible to other aspects of my life? Do you suppose that 2/3 of the world is full of miserable people because they don't believe the bible to be true? You are stereo-typing non-Christians into one large basket.
I know many non-believer's in Christianity, we discuss topics quite often. I have to say that they don't sound as bitter as you do, Kevin. But this is just an observation. Forgive me if you are happy-go-lucky in your personal life. I just don't see it. Our true color's come out whether we are discussing religion, politics or garbage day, it doesn't matter.
A oft-made mistake is judging people based on posts on an Internet forum. I will admit that I am bitter towards the bible, but not towards Christians. Christians are just humans to me, like all others, with their own set of opinions and personalities. I am disappointed in some Christians but I am also disappointed in some non-Christians. I'm sure there are many who are disappointed with me. Such is life.Let me ask you, how many people do you know who leave a 20 year relationship who aren't bitter towards the ex-partner? Very, very few leave amicably and move on quickly, but most take years to heal. Well, I had a 20 year relationship with the bible, and it ended up disappointing me. So understand that the time of recovery does take some awhile.
Whether you realize it or not, my posts are a form of “therapy” for me. With each one, I am able to shake the ingrained Abrahamic view of God and spirituality. I will admit if I was all nice-nice about this I'd likely become an atheist because all I would know is the Abrahamic view of God. I cannot accept that. And if God truly is like the bible portrays him, we are all screwed because that god is very fickle and has a tendency to destroy stuff.
Wow, Kevin, what a heartfelt post. I'm taken back a bit. I'll have to reread it later tonight when I can have more time here….
I guess I'm still at the place where I am using caution as I move forward in my understanding of the errors of the bible. I haven't chucked it all yet. I don't know that I ever will come to that place of ending that relationship. For me, there is a way to live at peace with imperfection. But it's hard to put into words right now.
Anyway, I love ya man. Thanks for taking the time to try and understand me and I'll try to do better by you!
Chat soon,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,15:02) Wow, Kevin, what a heartfelt post. I'm taken back a bit. I'll have to reread it later tonight when I can have more time here…. I guess I'm still at the place where I am using caution as I move forward in my understanding of the errors of the bible. I haven't chucked it all yet. I don't know that I ever will come to that place of ending that relationship. For me, there is a way to live at peace with imperfection. But it's hard to put into words right now.
Anyway, I love ya man. Thanks for taking the time to try and understand me and I'll try to do better by you!
Chat soon,
Mandy
I don't think “chunking” it has to be an option. It just happened to be for me. Even now, I go back to he gospels and try to figure out what the real Jesus was all about. I don't believe the real Jesus ever thought he was the son of Yahweh (not literally), nor do I think he was any type of “savior”. He was simply a man who had compassion on his fellow man and wanted to show those around him that spirituality was not about rigid adherence to laws but service to humanity. I also think he was a rebel, at least a passive one like Gandhi, and he opposed the oppressiveness of the Roman government. That is truly what he meant by “taking up our cross” because opposing the Roman rule would often end in death on a cross.Of course, I don't have proof for what I say, but the bible cannot be taken as proof of its own worth. The books in it were chosen by a very close vote. How many others that never made the vote have been forever destroyed?
Hi Mandy. (sorry, this post is messed up, with the quotes.)
Mandy:
“I think that perhaps your view of “most people” is tainted by the fact that you go door to door and solicit from people.”We don't “solicit” from anyone. We aren't selling anything. We're talking to people. Many supreme courts have had to explain to certain ones that we do not solicit.
Mandy:
“I think that perhaps your view of “most people” is tainted by the fact that you go door to door”On the contrary. If anything, a person who doesn't visit the average person would have a tainted view. Someone who only spends their time on here, for example would think that most people read the Bible and actually cares about it. While we do meet people like this in the ministry, it is rare.
Mandy:
This is how your religion tries to gain influence with folks towards the gospel (it's one way to do it, certainly not the only way).It's the way Jesus and his followers did it, and it works quite well. The one on one aspect. We've tried other means, radio, etc. But there's nothing like the way set out by Jesus.
Mandy:
I know Christians who will shut down a JW at the door.Well yes, most do. Most “Christians” say: “I'm a Christian, so I don't need to discuss the Bible with you.” Often, we'll ask a question about the Bible. The response if often: “I'm a [insert religion] so I'm not interested.” The number of Christians who simply don't want to discuss the Bible is far far far greater than the number who do. I've polled hundreds or maybe thousands personally.
Mandy:
They want nothing to do with them. Does this mean they are less Christian? Because they enjoy their lives and their traditions?Often, when I don't want the conversation to go to far, or feel tired, I'll just say: “We're talking with people in your area about the Bible.” [Slam!]
And if not “slam” then, “I'm not interested” or “I have my own [Christian] religion.”
The truth is, if someone is a Christian, they'd be interested in Christ, or the Bible?Mandy:
But according to your brand of Christianity it does. Who's right?If they actually believed in their beliefs, then they'd come to me with that life saving message. Thus far, no one has ever rang my bell or attempted to contact me personally. I think, that a person must pick up his torture stake and follow Jesus. It's not an easy road. It requires effort. Many people dislike effort. It sounds like work. They'd rather be golfing. They view religion as a personal private matter.
But is that the example Jesus and the first Christians set?Mandy:
Oh, I guess YOU are the one who is right!!Unless you're suggesting God is a trinity who burns people in everlasting fire. I only used Catholicism because the people on this forum universally understand it to be wrong on almost everything. My point, was of course, that enthusiasm doesn't mean a lot.
Mandy:
The topic is manuscripts…..the JW's didn't like how scads of theologians translated the scrolls? Why did they create their own bible?We used the KJ for years. Most JW's have KJ's and other Bibles. We've printed a few different Bibles. A large reason for the NWT was the fact that most Bible's have removed God's name from their Bible's some 7000 times. It changes the whole feeling of the Bible when you see “LORD” or “GOD” where God's name should be. It confused people (and greatly helps the trinity belief out.)
Half the people I meet in the ministry, if I asked what God's name was, they'd say “Jesus” or “God.”Anyway, do you understand what Jesus said about why he spoke in illustrations?
david
Hi David,
Not much time for a thoughtful response now, but I'll come back later tonight and respond.
Thanks,
MandyHi David,
It's late so I'll make it quick.Quote The number of Christians who simply don't want to discuss the Bible is far far far greater than the number who do.
I totally agree with you. It's sad, isn't it?Quote Anyway, do you understand what Jesus said about why he spoke in illustrations?
I think so, but please share your ideas.Thanks,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 21 2008,04:38) I know Christians who will shut down a JW at the door. They want nothing to do with them. Does this mean they are less Christian? Because they enjoy their lives and their traditions? I doubt it. But according to your brand of Christianity it does. Who's right?
A colleague recently told me that when JWs (or LDSs) come knocking asking if the householder has heard the good news about Jesus (or whatever) she replies “Yes, come inside and let me tell you about it”, and there follows a hasty retreat of JWs into the distance! They don't want to hear about Jesus, they want to tell about him.Stuart
I am afraid that I tend to agree with kejohn.
I too was a dumb happy CHristian for most of my life.
I sat and listened to what the preacher had to tell me and was
satisfied.About two years ago I started to really study the bible from cover to cover.
I was dissolutioned and dissapointed. The God that I was reading
about did not sound anything like the God that I had been hearing about.
When I questioned my pastor, I got rehearsed answers that were not answers at all.When I asked about all of the genocidal killing I was told that it was because
God was just and pure and could not stand evil, so it was necessary to kill them. When I asked about killing all
the little babies, I was told that God knew that they were going to grow up
evil. Like kejohn, I think that if God is the one described in the bible, we are all screwed.Just because some of His chosen people grumbled about walking for forty years to get some place
that was only two weeks away, He killed them. He opened up the earth and swallowed them.
That is not the kind of justice that we would tolerate from our human leaders.Tim
I am curious.
Does being allowed in the believers place mean that you believe in
God and Jesus, or that you believe in the bible?Tim
Quote I wish the bible was more clear-cut. Quote do you understand what Jesus said about why he spoke in illustrations? Quote I think so Then you know why it is not always clear cut.
Quote (david @ Aug. 22 2008,04:19) Quote I wish the bible was more clear-cut. Quote do you understand what Jesus said about why he spoke in illustrations? Quote I think so Then you know why it is not always clear cut.
True. But that doesn't mean every question is answered and satisfied knowing this. You still wonder why….. well, at least I do.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 21 2008,23:03) I am curious.
Does being allowed in the believers place mean that you believe in
God and Jesus, or that you believe in the bible?Tim
oooooooooooooooo!! You're brave, Tim.I wasn't going to ask that question. I guess I don't want the answer.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 22 2008,04:27) Quote (david @ Aug. 22 2008,04:19) Quote I wish the bible was more clear-cut. Quote do you understand what Jesus said about why he spoke in illustrations? Quote I think so Then you know why it is not always clear cut.
True. But that doesn't mean every question is answered and satisfied knowing this. You still wonder why….. well, at least I do.
Greetings Mandy….”A good understanding have those who keep my commandments”…..Jesus spoke in parables using metaphors with the intent to confuse and confound the learned and wise….The gospel is understood when one can reduce themselves to the reasoning capability of that of a child…Quote The gospel is understood when one can reduce themselves to the reasoning capability of that of a child… Well, like a child, you must lose your pride. Children aren't proud. A proud person would listen to the illustration and pretend to understand it. A humble person would keep asking questions. Children too, love questions.
“keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking.”
Also, Proverbs says to dig for the knowledge of Jehovah as if they were buried treasure. The effort required to understand these things doesn't appeal to everyone.
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